Hi Andrew - I was reading through some recent posts, and thought I should respond to this.
I must take issue, on the other hand, with your statement about the Catholic Church, Thomas. Yes, for 1500 years the papacy may have held more or less to its own prior decisions (contrary to Christ's original teachings)
A sweeping statement, and how do we exlain this Catholic Church which produced and continues to produce teachers, saints and mystics who shine as a beacon for the world, and are acknowledged as such by all, regardless of their own calling? Further, how do you explain the loyalty and adherence of those same?
Origen went to his death at the hands of the "Holy" Catholic Church for daring to uphold Christ's own doctrine regarding this matter.
Origen, in his sixties, was imprisoned during the persecutions of Decius and suffered torture at his hand. His health broke, and although released he died as a result of his suffering.
That he was squelched by the "Church" of the day and the then-pervasive doctrine and acceptance of Rebirth subsequently stamped out of existence (within the average christian's worldview) ... is a sad, sad thing, and something we can still witness all-too-often when ideas are presented that are not popular with the majority. Watch. I maintain that these view are my own - and while I would swear on any layperson's stack of bibles that these notions of Rebirth are true & accurate to the best of my ability to represent them - I also have to consider, what purpose could possibly be served by slighting another to make my point.[/]
The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy says:
"Origen was the first truly philosophical thinker to turn his hand not only to a refutation of Gnosticism, but to offer an alternative Christian system that was more rigorous and philosophically respectable than the mythological speculations of the various Gnostic sects."
The idea that Origen taught reincarnation is widely based on "Reincarnation in Christianity" by Geddes MacGregor (Theosophical Publishing House, 1978). As one review said:
The author speculates that Origen’s texts written in support of the belief in reincarnation somehow disappeared or were suppressed. Admitting he has no evidence, MacGregor nonetheless asserts: "I am convinced he taught reincarnation in some form."
Which is a long way from any kind of proof.
It is also far from Origen's understanding of the pre-existence of the soul - and pays no heed to Origen's own refutation of reincarnation and transmigration.
On the other hand we have "Contra Celsus" was a masterwork against the philosopher of that name who attacked Christianity, and likewise Origen's "On First Principles" was written to counter the appropriation and distortion of Christ's teachings at the hands of those who today we loosely call 'the gnostics' - notably Valentinus and Basilides.
Thus I question - is what I post the least bit helpful? And if it is not, then no matter how kind I try to be, and even if I post the truth - what have I accomplished? It is a conundrum, but on good faith I proceed, with the clarification that I am doing my best to distinguish the ideas we're discussing from those who hold them.
I have to say to the first part no, it is not helpful, because it piles error on error, and the second part is the reason why - because the sources you derive your information are themselves ill-founded. Let me offer Origen's own words:
"... so, seeing there are many who think they hold the opinions of Christ, and yet some of these think differently from their predecessors, yet as the teaching of the Church, transmitted in orderly succession from the apostles, and remaining in the Churches to the present day, is still preserved, that alone is to be accepted as truth which differs in no respect from ecclesiastical and apostolical tradition."
Prologue - On First Principles
And in this I stand where Origen stood.
"Now it ought to be known that the holy apostles, in preaching the faith of Christ, delivered themselves with the utmost clearness on certain points which they believed to be necessary to every one, even to those who seemed somewhat dull in the investigation of divine knowledge; leaving, however, the grounds of their statements to be examined into by those who should deserve the excellent gifts of the Spirit, and who, especially by means of the Holy Spirit Himself, should obtain the gift of language, of wisdom, and of knowledge: while on other subjects they merely stated the fact that things were so, keeping silence as to the manner or origin of their existence; clearly in order that the more zealous of their successors, who should be lovers of wisdom, might have a subject of exercise on which to display the fruit of their talents, -- those persons, I mean, who should prepare themselves to be fit and worthy receivers of wisdom."
Prologue - On First Principles
Yes, as I have stated in this forum before, there is a 'Christian esoterism' but there is not, a mode of 'esoteric Christianity' which differs from the apostolic teaching, a point which Origen's own words testify.
If one takes offense because I speak plainly about the catholic church, or about mainstream christianity - then I would put it to you, why?
Because it is largely ill-informed.
It is commonly believed, for example, that somewhere in the region of 5 million witches were executed in Europe at the stake by the church.
Scholarship has found that less than 500 were executed in England, and all by hanging with the exception of perhaps 2, and that in over 95% of the cases brought the case was dismissed or returned a verdict of not guilty.
It is a myth, and a myth that has grown with time, but it is not true, and like that utter rubbish 'The Da Vinci Code' enters the collective consciousness and within a short time become 'fact' for most people. An industry has grown up around it.
Origen was not alone. St Maximus suffered for his faith. St Francis was ignored. St Dominic was tested. Meister Eckhart was condemned. Her saints and mystics have suffered at the hands of ignorance, and the church, as a body of people, is not free from the flesh, but I pray for her deliverance as I pray for my own, and I follow their example.
If one can't say anything good, a sage one said, best say nothing at all.
All I ask, Andrew, is that on the basis of the knowledge you now have, you look with a clear eye at the 'first sources' - too many write too much fuelled by their own uncertain or self-serving motives.
I have been told, by 'those who know' and 'esoterists of great distinction' that Jesus was man not God; God not man; neither man nor God, an angel; a Venusian, a Jovian, a Saturnian, a visitor from at least half a dozen different galaxies, a Buddhist, a Daoist, an Egyptian Hierophant, an Avatar, an Atlantean ... if I took on board every well informed and well-meaning opinion...
So I looked for the authentic voice, and the authentic witness.
Thomas
I must take issue, on the other hand, with your statement about the Catholic Church, Thomas. Yes, for 1500 years the papacy may have held more or less to its own prior decisions (contrary to Christ's original teachings)
A sweeping statement, and how do we exlain this Catholic Church which produced and continues to produce teachers, saints and mystics who shine as a beacon for the world, and are acknowledged as such by all, regardless of their own calling? Further, how do you explain the loyalty and adherence of those same?
Origen went to his death at the hands of the "Holy" Catholic Church for daring to uphold Christ's own doctrine regarding this matter.
Origen, in his sixties, was imprisoned during the persecutions of Decius and suffered torture at his hand. His health broke, and although released he died as a result of his suffering.
That he was squelched by the "Church" of the day and the then-pervasive doctrine and acceptance of Rebirth subsequently stamped out of existence (within the average christian's worldview) ... is a sad, sad thing, and something we can still witness all-too-often when ideas are presented that are not popular with the majority. Watch. I maintain that these view are my own - and while I would swear on any layperson's stack of bibles that these notions of Rebirth are true & accurate to the best of my ability to represent them - I also have to consider, what purpose could possibly be served by slighting another to make my point.[/]
The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy says:
"Origen was the first truly philosophical thinker to turn his hand not only to a refutation of Gnosticism, but to offer an alternative Christian system that was more rigorous and philosophically respectable than the mythological speculations of the various Gnostic sects."
The idea that Origen taught reincarnation is widely based on "Reincarnation in Christianity" by Geddes MacGregor (Theosophical Publishing House, 1978). As one review said:
The author speculates that Origen’s texts written in support of the belief in reincarnation somehow disappeared or were suppressed. Admitting he has no evidence, MacGregor nonetheless asserts: "I am convinced he taught reincarnation in some form."
Which is a long way from any kind of proof.
It is also far from Origen's understanding of the pre-existence of the soul - and pays no heed to Origen's own refutation of reincarnation and transmigration.
On the other hand we have "Contra Celsus" was a masterwork against the philosopher of that name who attacked Christianity, and likewise Origen's "On First Principles" was written to counter the appropriation and distortion of Christ's teachings at the hands of those who today we loosely call 'the gnostics' - notably Valentinus and Basilides.
Thus I question - is what I post the least bit helpful? And if it is not, then no matter how kind I try to be, and even if I post the truth - what have I accomplished? It is a conundrum, but on good faith I proceed, with the clarification that I am doing my best to distinguish the ideas we're discussing from those who hold them.
I have to say to the first part no, it is not helpful, because it piles error on error, and the second part is the reason why - because the sources you derive your information are themselves ill-founded. Let me offer Origen's own words:
"... so, seeing there are many who think they hold the opinions of Christ, and yet some of these think differently from their predecessors, yet as the teaching of the Church, transmitted in orderly succession from the apostles, and remaining in the Churches to the present day, is still preserved, that alone is to be accepted as truth which differs in no respect from ecclesiastical and apostolical tradition."
Prologue - On First Principles
And in this I stand where Origen stood.
"Now it ought to be known that the holy apostles, in preaching the faith of Christ, delivered themselves with the utmost clearness on certain points which they believed to be necessary to every one, even to those who seemed somewhat dull in the investigation of divine knowledge; leaving, however, the grounds of their statements to be examined into by those who should deserve the excellent gifts of the Spirit, and who, especially by means of the Holy Spirit Himself, should obtain the gift of language, of wisdom, and of knowledge: while on other subjects they merely stated the fact that things were so, keeping silence as to the manner or origin of their existence; clearly in order that the more zealous of their successors, who should be lovers of wisdom, might have a subject of exercise on which to display the fruit of their talents, -- those persons, I mean, who should prepare themselves to be fit and worthy receivers of wisdom."
Prologue - On First Principles
Yes, as I have stated in this forum before, there is a 'Christian esoterism' but there is not, a mode of 'esoteric Christianity' which differs from the apostolic teaching, a point which Origen's own words testify.
If one takes offense because I speak plainly about the catholic church, or about mainstream christianity - then I would put it to you, why?
Because it is largely ill-informed.
It is commonly believed, for example, that somewhere in the region of 5 million witches were executed in Europe at the stake by the church.
Scholarship has found that less than 500 were executed in England, and all by hanging with the exception of perhaps 2, and that in over 95% of the cases brought the case was dismissed or returned a verdict of not guilty.
It is a myth, and a myth that has grown with time, but it is not true, and like that utter rubbish 'The Da Vinci Code' enters the collective consciousness and within a short time become 'fact' for most people. An industry has grown up around it.
Origen was not alone. St Maximus suffered for his faith. St Francis was ignored. St Dominic was tested. Meister Eckhart was condemned. Her saints and mystics have suffered at the hands of ignorance, and the church, as a body of people, is not free from the flesh, but I pray for her deliverance as I pray for my own, and I follow their example.
If one can't say anything good, a sage one said, best say nothing at all.
All I ask, Andrew, is that on the basis of the knowledge you now have, you look with a clear eye at the 'first sources' - too many write too much fuelled by their own uncertain or self-serving motives.
I have been told, by 'those who know' and 'esoterists of great distinction' that Jesus was man not God; God not man; neither man nor God, an angel; a Venusian, a Jovian, a Saturnian, a visitor from at least half a dozen different galaxies, a Buddhist, a Daoist, an Egyptian Hierophant, an Avatar, an Atlantean ... if I took on board every well informed and well-meaning opinion...
So I looked for the authentic voice, and the authentic witness.
Thomas
Have a good one, Earl
