false prophets and staying in truth

[wil]

So, instead of all calling each other cults and accusing each other of missing the Truth or following false prophets or whatever, I think we all agree it's better to understand each other and look for that common ground we all have in Christ. Aged Hippy did get it right that the bottom line is to love each other as Christ loves us. Insulting and demonizing others because they value tradition (aka collective wisdom) is just as harmful as any other injury done by doctrinal divisions.

I was postulating on the question and idea which was forwarded as to the whether the elder churches or the younger churches remain closer to original teachings. While I have called no one a cult, the primary definition of cult is any organized religion, so the shoe fits most of us, despite its recent degraded connotation.

I do believe the love your enemy and neighbor ideas are at the root of being a christian. I agree while I am not learned in all disciplines or languages or history of every age, are we to deny all the dance and dress hasn't been added since Jesus? I look at any church service and then imagine sitting listening on the hillside...I see a vast difference between the two. I think of discussions, of the teacher and the students in dialogue, questions and answers, and see not much of that from any pulpit. I've been in churches that do, but they are few and far between.

I don't call myself from the Universal thought nor that of the Protestors, I think I would possibly be more comfortable with one or more of the groups that ran around prior to canonization.

 

[Thomas]

What do you say is the biography, the Bible alone?

Bible first, but not alone.
Being a Catholic I'm big on Tradition as well.

So the life of Christ, and the lives of those who follow him.

They help find the way to the 'narrow gate'.

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Nice post, lunamoth.

 

[InChristAlways]

What do you say is the biography, the Bible alone?

Bible first, but not alone.
Being a Catholic I'm big on Tradition as well.

So the life of Christ, and the lives of those who follow him.

They help find the way to the 'narrow gate'.

Thomas

Hi Thomas. Does that include purgatory, praying to dead saints and Mary, and eternal damnation in Hellfire and standing in front of statues like the pagans did?

Edit to add: What about the focus on just Christ Crucified?

 

[Ghaniel]

What do you say is the biography, the Bible alone?

Bible first, but not alone.
Being a Catholic I'm big on Tradition as well.

So the life of Christ, and the lives of those who follow him.

They help find the way to the 'narrow gate'.

Thomas

But do you claim that only the saints of your denomination are right?
I have found inspiration in Catholic saints as well as Orthodox saints. The problem arises when one church claims to be superior to another, to be authentic. I don't think pride and that kind of introvert solidarity serves anyone. I feel that Catholics blindly accept the writings of earlier clergy men and canonised individuals and reproach any writings belonging to another church. But then I haven't known too many Catholics. I've conversed with 5-6 and they were all like this.

Perhaps the tradition you live in helps you through the narrow gate, and another tradition helps another. But there is only one truth and I think that truth is agreed upon by most: The birth, death and resurrection of Christ to take away all sin of humankind. And to restore the spiritual bond between God and humankind that once existed with Adam and Eve in Eden.

But much of the tradition is unbiblical, like that of praying to Mary(I know it's not like worshipping). Mary might be a good role model and a great believer, but she was a mortal human being like everyone else. This is something I don't understand.

 

[lunamoth]

I was postulating on the question and idea which was forwarded as to the whether the elder churches or the younger churches remain closer to original teachings. While I have called no one a cult, the primary definition of cult is any organized religion, so the shoe fits most of us, despite its recent degraded connotation.

I do believe the love your enemy and neighbor ideas are at the root of being a christian. I agree while I am not learned in all disciplines or languages or history of every age, are we to deny all the dance and dress hasn't been added since Jesus? I look at any church service and then imagine sitting listening on the hillside...I see a vast difference between the two. I think of discussions, of the teacher and the students in dialogue, questions and answers, and see not much of that from any pulpit. I've been in churches that do, but they are few and far between.

I don't call myself from the Universal thought nor that of the Protestors, I think I would possibly be more comfortable with one or more of the groups that ran around prior to canonization.

Hi Wil, I respect your position of one outside any box, any label. As for me as I see something important in being part of the Church community and I think there is a gestalt effect when I worship as part of the Episcopal church. And, the term cult has been thrown around by a lot of people here lately, so my comment was not directed just at you, although it did seem that way (apologies).

However, it remains, what makes one think that on one's own, even with lots of study and learning dead languages, one can recreate some kind of "authentic" worship, more like Jesus teaching on the hillside? Was that even a church service? By ourselves we can only reach so high, even though we may have precious 'mountaintop' (or eureka) experiences and certainly we must not stop thinking. What is doctrine? Perhaps the application of reason to our faith?

peace,
lunamoth

 

[lunamoth]

Nice post, lunamoth.

Thank you, Thomas.

lunamoth

 

[Thomas]

Yep.

standing in front of statues like the pagans did?
We differ from pagans in that we do not confuse the statue with the person the statue signifies. This is well-covered ground.

eternal damnation in Hellfire[/]
The words of Christ would suggest that is a possibility. This is well-covered ground.

praying to dead saints and Mary[/]
We believe in a life in the spirit, but our prayers are directed to God alone. I pray for those who have gone before both for their sake and for mine - but I do not pray 'to' them in the sense implied. They are venerated, but not worshipped; honoured but not glorified. This is well-covered ground.

Does that include purgatory
Yep. This too is well-covered ground.

It also includes the Doctrine of Theosis - "that God became man that man might become God" and - speculatively of course - the Doctrine of Apokatastasis - that everything will be restored to its primordial Glory.

What, in my mind and heart, sets Catholic and Orthodox Doctrine apart is the simplicity of what it asks, and the unlimited measure of mercy it offers - it seems to me that each successive denomination limits either or both of these more and more (how well that doctrine is lived is a matter for God and the individual soul), but for me Catholicism is more inclusive by far of any Tradition that ever appeared.

Thomas

 

[Quahom1]

I use these 2 sites 24 hours a day and you might give them a try.

http://www.scripture4all.org/index.htm [hebrew/greek/english interlinear.

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm [multi translations with Greek/English interlinear and lexicon on bottom for indidivual verses] It even has Young' LT and Rotherhams!!!

http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html

Thank you! I will look the links up.

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

Hi Thomas. Does that include purgatory, praying to dead saints and Mary, and eternal damnation in Hellfire and standing in front of statues like the pagans did?

Edit to add: What about the focus on just Christ Crucified?

Perhaps you might consider visiting a Catholic church, sitting through a High mass, then spending time with the Priest, and perhaps going over to the convent, and interviewing some of the Nuns. You might be surprised at what you thought you knew, vs. what is reality with Catholicism...

But then again, most folks can't be bothered researching stuff...that takes time.

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

Yep.

standing in front of statues like the pagans did?
We differ from pagans in that we do not confuse the statue with the person the statue signifies. This is well-covered ground.

eternal damnation in Hellfire[/]
The words of Christ would suggest that is a possibility. This is well-covered ground.

praying to dead saints and Mary[/]
We believe in a life in the spirit, but our prayers are directed to God alone. I pray for those who have gone before both for their sake and for mine - but I do not pray 'to' them in the sense implied. They are venerated, but not worshipped; honoured but not glorified. This is well-covered ground.

Does that include purgatory
Yep. This too is well-covered ground.

It also includes the Doctrine of Theosis - "that God became man that man might become God" and - speculatively of course - the Doctrine of Apokatastasis - that everything will be restored to its primordial Glory.

What, in my mind and heart, sets Catholic and Orthodox Doctrine apart is the simplicity of what it asks, and the unlimited measure of mercy it offers - it seems to me that each successive denomination limits either or both of these more and more (how well that doctrine is lived is a matter for God and the individual soul), but for me Catholicism is more inclusive by far of any Tradition that ever appeared.

Thomas

If I have a choice between driving a Ford or a Cadillac...I'm taking the Cadillac.

v/r

Q

 

[InChristAlways]

If I have a choice between driving a Ford or a Cadillac...I'm taking the Cadillac.

v/r

Q

But don't forget, God doesn't distinquish between the Ford and the the Cadillac, as the Driver is the one being judged, not the car.
Steve

 

[Quahom1]

But don't forget, God doesn't distinquish between the Ford and the the Cadillac, as the Driver is the one being judged, not the car.
Steve

ROFLMAO...who said I was driving!

Love the new american country song..."Jesus take the wheel"...

by Carrie Underwood

refrain:

Jesus take the wheel
Take it from my hands
Cause I can't do this all on my own
I'm letting go
So give me one more chance
To save me from this road I'm on
Jesus take the wheel


v/r

Q

 

[InChristAlways]

Perhaps you might consider visiting a Catholic church, sitting through a High mass, then spending time with the Priest, and perhaps going over to the convent, and interviewing some of the Nuns. You might be surprised at what you thought you knew, vs. what is reality with Catholicism...

But then again, most folks can't be bothered researching stuff...that takes time.

Hi Q. I was born and raised a catholic, an altar boy, sang in the choir ect. I even went to a seminary in my junior year of High School ['66-'67 Regina Cleri in Tucson, AZ.] but couldn't handle the college level courses and didn't return the next year. I joined the military in '68 after graduation to avoid the draft and "left"God for drugs, sex and rock and roll.
It was just 3 yrs ago when He entered my life and I have not put down the Bible since [first book I had read in about 12 years LOL]
Anyway, I just consider myself a disciple of our Lord Jesus and for that, I am thankfull and will stay away from the topics of denominations and I am sorry I brought it, as I am interested in studying the Scriptures and following God's will. Take care.

 

[Quahom1]

Hi Q. I was born and raised a catholic, an altar boy, sang in the choir ect. I even went to a seminary in my junior year of High School ['66-'67 Regina Cleri in Tucson, AZ.] but couldn't handle the college level courses and didn't return the next year. I joined the military in '68 after graduation to avoid the draft and "left"God for drugs, sex and rock and roll.
It was just 3 yrs ago when He entered my life and I have not put down the Bible since [first book I had read in about 12 years LOL]
Anyway, I just consider myself a disciple of our Lord Jesus and for that, I am thankfull and will stay away from the topics of denominations and I am sorry I brought it, as I am interested in studying the Scriptures and following God's will. Take care.

Interesting similarities. I'm born and raised Catholic. an altar boy, choir, my dad did the seminary thing (1953 -1956) couldn't handle the church, the priests and their personal bullsh*t, left and joined the AirForce.

In 1975,(I coud'n't handle the Catholic church, the priests and their bullsh*t in my own time and entered the Coast Guard in the late 1970s). Priest wannabes, that cried foul at the last second.

Christ was always in my life...the church however, was not. I mean NO CHURCH. Then I began to research...about that time the Mormon "elders" entered my life.

Have you ever "met" an "elder" of the Mormon Church? I did, for one year, every weekend. This "18" year old elder (team), met with me for a year, each weekend (Saturday usually). We discussed so many aspects of the Bible, but they kept wanting to go to a different book (book of Mormon).

In the end we agreed to disagree. However, I am so grateful for the Mormon Elders. Why? They indeed lead me back to actively pursuing Jesus.

They encouraged me to "STUDY" bibical verses. They pushed me to make arguement in behalf of scripture.

Perhaps the young "elders" of the Mormon church are wise indeed. They made a man think about God...after all.

v/r

Q

 

[Ghaniel]

I'm sorry, Q, but there's a lot that isn't too good about the Mormon teaching.
I hope you're not getting into any of that. They are unbiblical to the bone. One Mormon even admitted that they don't believe in the same Christ as other Christians. Don't go there !!

 

[wil]

However, it remains, what makes one think that on one's own, even with lots of study and learning dead languages, one can recreate some kind of "authentic" worship, more like Jesus teaching on the hillside? Was that even a church service? By ourselves we can only reach so high, even though we may have precious 'mountaintop' (or eureka) experiences and certainly we must not stop thinking. What is doctrine? Perhaps the application of reason to our faith?

I don't rely on myself learning any of this stuff, people devote lifetimes to one aspect of one book. I try to read their books, the ones that agree with my thought and covention and the church and christian thinking and the ones that disagree. I don't believe one can get an education by only reading Pravda. I attend church for the lessons and the discussion, and the traditions we've borrowed or created obviously benefit many, just not me (at this time). I think these traditions are more of a comfort thing, like two all beef patties special sauce lettuce tomatoes mayonaise on a sesame seed bun. The religion of McDonalds is not great food, it isn't even good food, but when you enter that sanctuary, you know exactly what you are going to get, it is just like any other building with those same arches out front. So to me some of this 'tradition' is comforting, but also mesmerizing.

In the end we agreed to disagree. However, I am so grateful for the Mormon Elders. Why? They indeed lead me back to actively pursuing Jesus.

This is precisely what I believe is meant by all paths lead...sometimes it takes drugs, sex and rock and roll to make the change, sometimes it takes another system that doesn't resonate. And I am not comparing the Mormon Church to D, S, R&R...I do believe as this board indicates many will find a connection with spirit through different avenues...as someone else described different narrow gates...if one works for us we should be thankful, and I fully understand the elation and the concept of I want others to have this glorius feeling and understanding that I have. But reality is, many of them do, and would love you to have their feeling as well....but what you have is not for them, and vice versa..(at this time) Everyone is where they need to be... The only reason to call one group a cult or heretical or claim that we have the only one and true way to God and salvation....is because we aren't willing to sit down and discuss the nuances, the similarities, the differences and acknowledge that different is ok. We constantly discuss our ego, seems often the churches ego helps make ours worse...leads us further from being Christlike.

 

[Quahom1]

I like being Catholic. It works (for me). It has a "ring of truth" that is clear to my ears. It allows me to be open minded of others' beliefs, yet keeps me secure in my own. It has taught me discipline, and courtesy, honor and courage, faith, love, and hope.

It is the only version of any faith that I know of that has ever apologized publicly for mistakes or wrongs comitted in its name.

It has done right by me and mine (most of the time). I think I'll keep it.

v/r

Q

 

[InChristAlways]

So what is everyone's view on this site's depiction of the false prophet Daniel and Jeremiah. Can anyone refute him on how Daniel 12 wasn't fulfilled upon the event of Chapter 11 and the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem?

Revelation is of course the only book in the Bible that can refute him, if one knows what that book is signifying concerning the final Consummation of OC Israel and Judah and Daniel 11/12 is about the jews and Israel, no? What about Ezekiel 39/Zeph 1 happening on the Mountains of Israel?

Ezekiel 39: 'Speak to every sort of bird and to every beast of the field: "Assemble yourselves and come; Gather together from all sides to My sacrificial meal Which I am sacrificing for you, A great sacrificial meal on the mountains of Israel, That you may eat flesh and drink blood.

[size=+2]Zeph 1:7 Be silent in the presence of the Lord GOD; For the day of the LORD [is] at hand, For the LORD has prepared a sacrifice; He has invited His guests. 8 "And it shall be, In the day of the LORD's sacrifice, That I will punish the princes and the king's [OC High Priest?] children, And all such as are clothed with foreign apparel. [/size]

http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html

All this is rather 'jarring' to read, and does leave a person scratching their heads, wondering what is wrong with this picture. A doctrine of the 'revived Roman empire' was then concocted, and at the time this happens, the clock will start ticking again and that last bit of prophecy will finally be fulfilled. This might explain chapter nine, if you choose to accept such nimble interpretation, but another excuse would have to be cooked up for chapters 10 to 12, for it is self evident that in this source (written in the second century in response to Antiochus IV) the world did not end immediately after Antiochus despoiled Jerusalem and the temple, Michael was not outraged enough to promptly end the world. This 'clock' must have 'stopped ticking' as well, awaiting the awakening and the rise of the 'revived Selucid Greek empire' at which time it will finally be fulfilled. This would, of course, require ending the world twice (once to Revive the Romans and thus salvage chapter 9, and a second go at it to revive the Greeks and salvage chapter 12. Whether or not we can all tolerate suffering through two ends of the world is a good question, but this would be required to salvage the doctrine of 'Biblical inerrancy.'

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time Your People shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

 

[Quahom1]

So what is everyone's view on this site's depiction of the false prophet Daniel and Jeremiah. Can anyone refute him on how Daniel 12 wasn't fulfilled upon the event of Chapter 11 and the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem?

It is an opinion. It is like the anus of each human. We all have one, and sometimes, they stink. What comes out of them, isn't clean.

Or like Brucedc says in the computer world, garbage in, garbage out.

This is subjective speculation...are you actually leaning towards this view InChrist?

v/r

Q