Temporary Interfaith Parsha Fun Thread

[dauer]

Hi everybody. I've been quite busy as of late, and I find myself in an all too unfamiliar situation. When I get my bearings, I'll bring the project back to what it was, but for now hopefully this thread will inspire some adventerous folks to take a chance and see what they can come up with. For those wondering what the current parsha is, this site will tell you:

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/default.asp?AID=6232

I'm sure I'll add my voice to the choir that emerges from this temporary situation, so have fun and hold onto your hats. It's parsha time!

Dauer

 

[InLove]

Howdy and Shalom, Dauer--I always enjoy your posts

Interesting site--of course, I had to look up "parsha (h?)", which led me to several informative sites. Haven't had a chance to check this one out thoroughly yet, but looking forward to whatever you have planned here.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[lunamoth]

Hi Dauer, I've been busy between moving and the holidays but I hope to get back to the parsha again too. An interfaith bible study is just too good to pass up.

Thank you!

lunamoth

 

[Bandit]

Vayigash

Genesis 44:18-47:27

Judah approaches Joseph to plead for the release of Benjamin, offering himself as a slave to the Egyptian ruler in Benjamin's stead. Upon witnessing his brothers' loyalty to one another, Joseph reveals his identity to them. "I am Joseph," he declares. "Is my father still alive?"

The brothers are overcome by shame and remorse, but Joseph comforts them. "It was not you who sent me here," he says to them, "but G-d. It has all been ordained from Above to save us, and the entire region, from famine."

The brothers rush back to Canaan with the news. Jacob comes to Egypt with his sons and their families -- seventy souls in all -- and is reunited with his beloved son after 22 years. On his way to Egypt he receives the Divine promise: "Fear not to go down to Egypt; for I will there make of you a great nation. I will go down with you into Egypt, and I will also surely bring you up again."

Joseph gathers the wealth of Egypt by selling food and seed during the famine. Pharaoh gives Jacob's family the fertile county of Goshen to settle, and the children of Israel prosper in their Egyptian exile.


___________________________________

i dont know if this is the right one but any way...
it appears to be the time when Joseph is going to get to see jacob again but before this it is interesting because the shame & jelousy of his brothers is sucked up into the love of Joseph. it is neat to see how God moves this way. though his brothers hated him & left joseph to die, God used Joseph to accomplish a magnificant work with isreal through the 7 year famine.
Joseph knew he had to take Benjamin in order to convey who he really was when Judah ask him to take him as a slave & let Benjamin go back to his father.

what a reunion & how he had to keep it all secret until the appointed time. i have learned this very well that there are times & events when i have to keep things to myself & allow God to work & watch Him work through others in real time. it also reminds me of our forgiving Father God, through Jesus & how it will be when we are all in heaven & the joy & love there will be around the throne of God & grief, famine & disappointment will be no more.

 

[pohaikawahine]

aloha e everyone .... I haven't been on-line for a while .... caught a virus that is going around this area and it hangs on for several weeks (still got it) and then rains and some flooding and lost all power for about 24 hours .... so the gregorian new year came in with candles and soft lights which was really sort of nice ....


I have to admit something here .... this is the first time I've actually spent so much time going through any form of the bible in such detail .... and while I really enjoy the interaction and the opportunity to share thoughts and interpretations, I am taken aback by the amount of violence, the almost funny number of concubines and other wives that men of the bible had, the turmoil in families, and the constant need to have god intervene to bring things back to some sort of balance .... having said all of that, I can see that lessons about our human emotions are deeply embedded and that is one of the reasons that something like the parsha is important .... dialogue, study, contemplation .... but truthfully, I expected it to be something more beautiful and stately (that is probably why I love the Song of Songs) .... since I have a strong tendancy (probably understated here .... a passion might be a better term) to read and see in symbols, I see beauty and strength in the OT but only when I see beneath the symbols, not at the literal level .... I don't know that I would want any child to read the bible without the assistance of learned and spiritual adults that can help with the interpretation .... it actually gives me chills to think of preachers and others that speak only to the literal interpretation and speak to the "fear of god" (which is a contradiction in itself) ....

so in this part of the parsha I found myself focussing on the number seventy ... 46:27 "All the persons of the household of Jacob coming to Egypt were seventy."

I have this book at home called "Charting the End Times" (I'm very interested in how various religions interpret the end times concept) and it speaks to "the 70 weeks of Daniel" "The prophecy of the 70 weeks was given to Daniel by God while Daniel was in Babylon. In the vision God gave to Daniel, the Lord assured the prophet that He had not forgotten His chosen people. The angel Gabriel told Daniel that God would bring Israle back into their land and would one day set up the Messianic kingdom. What Daniel didn't expect was the revelation that the prophecy would not be fulfilled at the end of the 70-year captivity in Babylon.but at the end of the future 70-week period described in 9:24-27. According to Daniel 9:27, the Antichrist will come to power during the prophetic milestone known as the seventieth week."

I wondering is there a connection in the OT with the number of persons of the household of Jacob with the 70's found in Daniel. " Daniel's Fourth Kingdom "Little Horn" and His Kingdom is related to the prophetic time clock that resumes for fulfillment for Jewish nation" (this is in the above book) and is connected to the timing of (according to Daniel) the Third Temple (Tribulation).

In my copy of the OT here is part of the commentary on the number seventy "The traditional commentators resort to interpretive acrobatics in order to make the list come out to exactly seventy - debating as to whether Jacob himself should be included in the count, whether Joseph and his two sons are part of the sum and so forth. In fact, the insistence on seventy at the end of the list vividly illustrates the biblical use of numbers as symbolic approximations rather than as arithmetically precise measures. Seventy is a fullness, a large round number, ten times sacred seven, and its use here indicates that Jacob, once a solitary figitive, has grown to a grand family, the nucleus of a nation."

After this the parsha goes into (what I consider to be one of the most powerful of the symbols) "And Joseph harnessed his chariot and went up to meet Israel his father in Goshen, and appeared before him ...."

I have my own interpretation of the above, but right now I just wanted to share a possible interfaith connection through the number seventy .... I haven't had a chance to go back to the Zohar and any possible Kabbalist perspective .... gotta go to work, be back later .... he hawai'i au, poh

 

[Bandit]

i dont know much about 70, pohaikawahine. i know about 7X70 & 7 & 3.5. & i know about three score & ten & seven weeks & seven years etc etc.

please start the next parsha anytime when joseph goes to Jacob or just add it into this one. whatever it is called.
i think Dauer wants us to take the initiative here any way, so we dont always have to wait.

 

[Bandit]

when you get into chapter 47, Pahroa really had no idea what was going on here. it was like such a secret with Joseph & his brothers.

Joseph kept all this in his heart for so many years I also see the way Jesus is in some of these verses & this reflects how God always picks us up where ever we left off with him & we do not have to keep starting over in a new relationship.

4. Then Joseph said to his brothers, "Please come closer to me," and they drew closer. And he said, "I am your brother Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt. 5. But now do not be sad, and let it not trouble you that you sold me here, for it was to preserve life that God sent me before you. 6. For already two years of famine [have passed] in the midst of the land, and [for] another five years, there will be neither plowing nor harvest. 7. And God sent me before you to make for you a remnant in the land, and to preserve [it] for you for a great deliverance.

here below God is speaking to Jacob telling him not to be afraid to go to egypt (similiar to the way Joseph was talking to his brothers) & i wonder what it means for Joseph to put his hand on Jacobs eyes?.

2. And God said to Israel in visions of the night, and He said, "Jacob, Jacob!" And he said, "Here I am." 3. And He said, "I am God, the God of your father. Do not be afraid of going down to Egypt, for there I will make you into a great nation. 4. I will go down with you to Egypt, and I will also bring you up, and Joseph will place his hand on your eyes.

& then here it shows so much sorrow turned into joy by seeing his father & Jacob seeing his son & being with him again.
Jacob is called Israel! right??

28. He sent Judah ahead of him to Joseph, to direct him to Goshen, and they came to the land of Goshen. 29. And Joseph harnessed his chariot, and he went up to meet Israel his father, to Goshen, and he appeared to him, and he fell on his neck, and he wept on his neck for a long time. 30. And Israel said to Joseph, "I will die this time, since I have seen your face, that you are still alive."

look at what jacob tells Pharoa here as Jacob reflects on his forefathers & mentions there longer lived lives than his own & you can see his inspiration revive.

9. And Jacob said to Pharaoh, "The days of the years of my sojournings are one hundred thirty years. The days of the years of my life have been few and miserable, and they have not reached the days of the years of the lives of my forefathers in the days of their sojournings."

Joseph was a brilliant man. this reminds me often of how we are to bring our tithes & offerings into the storehouse for hard times. Joseph is like a mortgage broker & an insurnace salesman the way he moves things around to keep everyone alive for the rest of this 7 year famine. & God had put him into a position where he was the only one who could do it
you can see all that in that day of the parsha.

 

[Bandit]

aloha e everyone .... I don't know that I would want any child to read the bible without the assistance of learned and spiritual adults that can help with the interpretation .... it actually gives me chills to think of preachers and others that speak only to the literal interpretation and speak to the "fear of god" (which is a contradiction in itself) .... .... he hawai'i au, poh

hi Poh

fear God & keep His commandments is not a contradiciton when you see what the commandments are starting with him asking us to love him & to love our brother. fear there means reverence & respect...not to be afraid as in scared.

i dont think children really can read the bible. at least i never could make heads or tails out of it growing up. except for the New Testament was easier so i stayed in that in my early years then later gained a deeper understanding & had a greater appreciation for the OT.
i think that is why they have sunday school teachers & little color picture books & story books for children just to hi light the main parts.

see mary run. see mary run fast. see mary run fast with joe. that is what i was reading in first & second grade in school so there is no way i could have made sense out of the bible without guidance.

 

[pohaikawahine]

bandit you are really a very sweet person and I have enjoyed reading your interpretations ....


another interesting reference to the number 70, wasn't it in the year 70 that the temple of solomon was destroyed? and the "seventy letters" which are permutations of the letters of the divine name YHVH.

I also read this about the "chariot" ... the chariot refers to a mystic vision described in the book of Ezekiel who lived during the Babylonian exile after the destruction of the first temple - his experiences were meaningful to those going through the pain of attacks by the romans .... he described a highly detailed vision he had of a heavenly chariot, wheels within wheels and winged creatues with four faces. "The merkavah mystics used this vision as their own vehicle for trance journeys into the seven hekhaloth (palaces) of heaven. The purpose of these journeys was to see the divine face to face, the very experience Jacob describes after his night of wrestling." so it seems that the section 46:28 "And Joseph harnessed his chariot and went up to meet Israel his father in Goshen ..." is an important reference and now of course Jacob is being referred to as Israel ....

the sefirot on the tree of life are also referred to as "the supernal chariot"

much to think about in this parsha .... aloha nui, poh

 

[Bandit]

bandit you are really a very sweet person and I have enjoyed reading your interpretations ....


another interesting reference to the number 70, wasn't it in the year 70 that the temple of solomon was destroyed? and the "seventy letters" which are permutations of the letters of the divine name YHVH.

I also read this about the "chariot" ... the chariot refers to a mystic vision described in the book of Ezekiel who lived during the Babylonian exile after the destruction of the first temple - his experiences were meaningful to those going through the pain of attacks by the romans .... he described a highly detailed vision he had of a heavenly chariot, wheels within wheels and winged creatues with four faces. "The merkavah mystics used this vision as their own vehicle for trance journeys into the seven hekhaloth (palaces) of heaven. The purpose of these journeys was to see the divine face to face, the very experience Jacob describes after his night of wrestling." so it seems that the section 46:28 "And Joseph harnessed his chariot and went up to meet Israel his father in Goshen ..." is an important reference and now of course Jacob is being referred to as Israel ....

the sefirot on the tree of life are also referred to as "the supernal chariot"

much to think about in this parsha .... aloha nui, poh

70 is right for the destruction of the temple...not sure what the 70 letter in YHVH.

you are seeing something there with the chariots that i am not getting yet. i am going to have a look at Ezekial & some other references in the morning about the chariots & see if i can come up with what you are saying.

i forget what religion that is that believed the sun was carried around the earth on a chariot. so we can study chariots that will be a first for me.

 

[Bandit]

hey pohaikawahine
the story of Joseph is the first time chariots are mentioned which is interesting to me. chariots then you dont see them again until the exodous.
there are chariots of iron & chariots of wood, white red & black horses are related to them.

a couple of places it is interesting because it is in reference to something revolving & whirlwinds.
the chariots are also related to fire. they are talked about a lot in war ESPECIALLY egypt & rome.
the chariots themselves being burned & destroyed.
you mentioned the 4 faces which i noticed in junction with the North & rage.
Chronicles & Kings have a lot on chariots & there was some pattern in the tabernacle made of gold that cheribums were in.

i also noticed something that can possibly relate to some kind of disappearance where chariots are involved. (not sure i have to check some more)

28:18 And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.

there is more & there are more defintions but these are the main entrees.



7393 rekeb reh'-keb from 7392; a vehicle; by implication, a team; by extension, cavalry; by analogy a rider, i.e. the upper millstone:--chariot, (upper) millstone, multitude (from the margin), wagon. 7396 rikbah rik-baw' feminine of 7393; a chariot (collectively):--chariots.



1024 Beyth ham-Marka-bowth bayth ham-mar-kaw-both' or (shortened) Beyth Mar-kabowth {bayth mar-kaw-both'}; from 1004 and the plural of 4818 (with or without the article interposed); place of (the) chariots; Beth-ham-Markaboth or Beth-Markaboth, a place in Palestine:--Beth-marcaboth. 4818 merkabah mer-kaw-baw' feminine of 4817; a chariot:--chariot. See also 1024.
2021 hotsen ho'-tsen from an unused root meaning apparently to be sharp or strong; a weapon of war:--chariot.

i wont be here for the weekend so have a good one Poh & see ya next week.

 

[pohaikawahine]

thank you for the new references and have a great weekend ....in my mind, the chariot, as a symbol, is the ascending energy within the body .... as it moves up in a spiral (like the whirlwind) along the earth axis (the spinal column) into the brain (by now you should be use to my view on these things).... and 46:29 states "...and went up to meet Israel his father in Goshem"


"28:18 And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD."

it is my belief that the ark of the covenant has always been within our reach, but it is an internal process and not an external one... you may or may not recall that I wrote before about the caudate nucleus (a covering over the central chamber of the brain) which when looked at from angle appears to be the horns of a ram, and from another angle appears to be the wings of an angel .... (there are some pretty good pictures of the brain at this web site www.psycheducation.org/emotion/triune%20brain.htm
not very detailed on the caudate nucleus, but you can get a sense of it.
If the ark of the covenant is actually the inner chamber that houses the pineal gland (that place called Peniel) and the caudate nucleus is symbolized by the cherubims .... the riding of the chairiot or the whirlwind and the passing through fire would all fit. To enter the chamber the energy must pass through the 'foramen magnum" which is connected with the root words for "furnace" (I have a refernce on this but have to find it).

so it seems that what we are reading in this part of the parsha is an account of the process of ascending to that higher place and into the land of Israel, the promised land.... we are almost at the end of Genesis in which the 12 tribes are named and blessed and Jacob will ask to be buried with his fathers in the "cave" .... the field and the cave within it ... and he takes his last breath and is "gathered to his kinfolk". ... seems to me we have just read about the process for the "regathering" .... but again, these are only my thoughts and I surely love this part of the parsha .... aloha nui,poh

 

[pohaikawahine]

. To enter the chamber the energy must pass through the 'foramen magnum" which is connected with the root words for "furnace" (I have a refernce on this but have to find it).

sorry, I made a mistake above .... it is the fornix and not the foramen magnum that is connected with the word "furnace" ... the fornix is also known as the stria pinealis, or line to the pineal .... poh

 

[pohaikawahine]

I have read 48:13 - 14 several times and keep trying to visualize it. Joseph is facing his father Israel holding the hands of the two sons ... "Ephraim with his right hand - to Israel's left - and Manasseh with his left hand - to Israel's right" Israel stretches out his right hand and crosses over to the left to lay it on the head of Ephraim (the youngest son) .... although I realize this is related to a greater and perhaps a lesser blessing, it strikes me as remarkable similar to the way our brain works (I know, I'm back to the brain .... ) the right hemisphere controls the left side of the body,and the left hemisphere controls the right side of the body .... and it is the right hemisphere that is supposingly more related to our spirituality, the feminine side, the side of the moon .... so Ephraim is being touched by the right and his brother Manasseh is being touched by the left (or influenced) .... the left is connected more with the masculine aspect of ourselves, the logical pattern of thought, and the sun, it is the warrior side ....

I guess I will need to read more and see what kind of lives both Manasseh and Ephraim live after this point .... something to look forward to .... aloha nui, poh

 

[Bandit]

thank you for the new references and have a great weekend ....in my mind, the chariot, as a symbol, is the ascending energy within the body .... as it moves up in a spiral (like the whirlwind) along the earth axis (the spinal column) into the brain (by now you should be use to my view on these things).... and 46:29 states "...and went up to meet Israel his father in Goshem"


" .... but again, these are only my thoughts and I surely love this part of the parsha .... aloha nui,poh

yes pohaikawahine, i am getting used to your views. did you ever consider being a surgeon?

we should start a thread here together on the Tabernacle & go through all the passages, as we have time over the year 2006. i am sure there are enough diagrams & material online to give us some good pictures of all the details & what went on inside & outside.
I know we would probably not finish it all in one year.
bet we would make a good team on that.

would you enjoy that?

 

[pohaikawahine]

yes, that would be fun and interesting .... when you are ready go ahead and start a thread and we can start the journey and hope others may want to join, but if not, enjoy the journey anyway .... and no I never thought of being a surgeon .... actually I retired in 1995, did private consulting afterwards, stopped for a couple of years and helped to take care of my grandson, and now I work at a Indian owned casino .... I started working when I was 15 years old, no time for being a brain surgeon .... so I study the brain just as I study ancient chants and legends and a lot of other things ....


by the way bandit, where are we at on the parsha .... I have pretty much moved on through the end of genesis and it was very exciting ... now that I have gone through the whole thing and seen its basic structure, I will need to re-read it and I'm sure it will keep taking on new meanings and insights ....I have two copies now, "the five books of moses" by rober alter, and the JPS hebrew/english tanakh .... those along with references from various books on the zohar really sparked ideas but I was not familiar enough with the entire structure to apply them well ....

dauer .... do you have any recommendations for other books that I need to delve deeper into the Jewish scriptures ? miss you, anything I can do to help with whatever is taking you away right now? aloha nui, poh

 

[Bandit]

yes, that would be fun and interesting .... when you are ready go ahead and start a thread and we can start the journey and hope others may want to join, but if not, enjoy the journey anyway .... and no I never thought of being a surgeon .... actually I retired in 1995, did private consulting afterwards, stopped for a couple of years and helped to take care of my grandson, and now I work at a Indian owned casino .... I started working when I was 15 years old, no time for being a brain surgeon .... so I study the brain just as I study ancient chants and legends and a lot of other things ....

okay then. i was just checking because you know all the stuff inside, Dr. pohaikawahine.
if we do the Tabernacle in the wilderness i want to do it here instead of Judaism (& as a seperate parsha) because you see numbers & symbols better than i do plus the parsha should allow for more of an in depth study, so we wont need to feel rushed.
(i will look for a basic outline this week)

by the way bandit, where are we at on the parsha .... I have pretty much moved on through the end of genesis and it was very exciting ... now that I have gone through the whole thing and seen its basic structure, I will need to re-read it and I'm sure it will keep taking on new meanings and insights ....I have two copies now, "the five books of moses" by rober alter, and the JPS hebrew/english tanakh .... those along with references from various books on the zohar really sparked ideas but I was not familiar enough with the entire structure to apply them well ....

i dont know where we are because i have never done parsha style before. i usually just go by chapter & verse. i am not sure if parsha actually goes through all the tabernacle the same way i would like to, because it moves real fast, more like daily devotional study.
i think this is the last day because Joseph dies at 110 & was buried in Egypt. (chapter 50)

the next parsha probably introduces the birth of Moses.

 

[pohaikawahine]

sounds great and I'll look forward to your start .... yes, I think the next parsha moves on to Exodus .... I'll check exactly where we are at some other sites on Judiasm that I subscribe to .... aloha nui, poh

 

[dauer]

Hi all. The parsha can divide into daily readings, but that's often not the case. That's just one way that some people approach it. What I've seen as being more common, is to pick up on some of the issues in the parsha one year, and other ones in another year. The reason I linked to that particular website is because it always gives the current parsha.

Poh, for a Western understanding of the Torah I would suggest either the Fox translation or the JPS chumash. The JPS chumash is the same translation as you have, but with commentary. It's actually condensed from something that's a number of volumes. The Fox translation is similar to the Alter translation but the commentary is more critical. For a more traditional Jewish commentary, there's the stone chumash from artscroll. But I would also recommend the link to Torah with Rashi I gave in the links thread. He's an important commentator. If you want to read something a little different, try Guide for the Perplexed by Maimonides. He applies an Aristotelian worldview to Torah. I don't know where else you want to go with your reading.

Another site for finding the current parsha is Hebcal.

http://www.hebcal.com/sedrot/

The date given is for the Saturday at the end of the week, but includes the previous week.

Dauer

 

[pohaikawahine]

Hi all. The parsha can divide into daily readings, but that's often not the case. That's just one way that some people approach it. What I've seen as being more common, is to pick up on some of the issues in the parsha one year, and other ones in another year. The reason I linked to that particular website is because it always gives the current parsha.

Poh, for a Western understanding of the Torah I would suggest either the Fox translation or the JPS chumash. The JPS chumash is the same translation as you have, but with commentary. It's actually condensed from something that's a number of volumes. The Fox translation is similar to the Alter translation but the commentary is more critical. For a more traditional Jewish commentary, there's the stone chumash from artscroll. But I would also recommend the link to Torah with Rashi I gave in the links thread. He's an important commentator. If you want to read something a little different, try Guide for the Perplexed by Maimonides. He applies an Aristotelian worldview to Torah. I don't know where else you want to go with your reading.

Another site for finding the current parsha is Hebcal.

http://www.hebcal.com/sedrot/

The date given is for the Saturday at the end of the week, but includes the previous week.

Dauer

Hi dauer - welcome back, I like the parsha the way we have it now with a broader section to respond to and you are right there is always next year to pickup anything we missed or didn't respond to .... what do you think of bandit's idea to do thread on the tabernacle in the wilderness here as thought it was a parsha,but one that doesn't close at the end of the week .... the rest of the parsha would just keep going as we are doing it now, so basically we would have two threads open while we work on the tabernacle at our own pace .... the tabernacle and the regular parsha ....

bandit - you are really funny and I love your sense of humor (liked the piece on lunamoth) .... I think I'm beginning to understand why you so frequently post a question about the order of service and things at different sites .... and all of this will tie into the dialogue about the tabernacle in the wilderness .... I will also introduce some pieces on the description and meaning of altars connected with native american and hawaiian rituals and in some cases the way a home is built .... they will be related to the tabernacle in the wilderness .... remember I posted before that the top of the mountain in old hawaii was called "wao akua" which translates as "forest of the gods" .... the place that is hard to access by man .... aloha nui, poh