M
Mrs.Alhajjri
Guest
.........
I care...and as the pole doesn't indicate that we all should care, I can't answer it. I have a concern for all living beings.
God Bless the whole world, no exceptions... I love that bumpersticker.
In reality I believe the people of Iran, and the Arab people and most peoples everywhere care. As with Vietnam, Germany, Korea, Russia, China...it is the leaders that create animosity, breed contempt for other countries.
There isn't a war that doesn't have many stories of soldiers from both sides encountering each other on the battlefiield and deciding not to kill each other, but to share food, supply first aid, and then return to their prospective sides.
I think if we don't care about someone or some people it is because we believed the propaganda of our governments, the hate preached from some pulpit, or the bigotry of those that brought us up.
If the leaders of each country were required to send their children to war, if our senators, congressmen and presidents had to raise the sword and lead the charge themselves...the world would be a different place.
God Bless the whole world, no exceptions... I love that bumpersticker.
In reality I believe the people of Iran, and the Arab people and most peoples everywhere care. As with Vietnam, Germany, Korea, Russia, China...it is the leaders that create animosity, breed contempt for other countries.
There isn't a war that doesn't have many stories of soldiers from both sides encountering each other on the battlefiield and deciding not to kill each other, but to share food, supply first aid, and then return to their prospective sides.
I think if we don't care about someone or some people it is because we believed the propaganda of our governments, the hate preached from some pulpit, or the bigotry of those that brought us up.
If the leaders of each country were required to send their children to war, if our senators, congressmen and presidents had to raise the sword and lead the charge themselves...the world would be a different place.
T
truthseeker
Guest
There is no nation from the point of its leadership that cares about the Iraqi people. When you care about the people, there is a concensus. America would not mess with the whole thing if it couldn't get something out of it. Not to sound harsh, but America wouldn't be spending this much money against a nation with no weapons of mass destruction if it couldn't get the money back and more. The citizens of every nation are concerned about the Iraqi people because there is a great injustice being committed - it is difficult for one to stand by and witness injustice and not be affected by it.
truthseeker said:
Sometimes there are things of greater importance than monetary gain, like alliances, friendly ties, and security. There is also the matter of a more or less democratic principle vs. a totaliterian principle. I'm certain that monetary gain will come down the pike later on, but not now, and not in the immediate future...
In any event, the United States government is the people, and the military personnel are all volunteers, not conscripts. 180,000 of them along with almost 100,000 allies went to Iraq for one purpose, stop a tyrant who has always had his eye on ruling all of the Middle East. Now begins the process of rebuilding, only there are those who absolutely do not want this rebuilding to succeed, just like there were those who did not want Germany and Japan to be rebuilt. But it will happen, just like it did with them.
What the media conveniently leaves out is the success stories through out the majority of Iraqi provences (of the 18, 3 are the main trouble spots).
Insurgents blow it up, and we come back and rebuild it, then they blow it up again, and we come back and rebuild it...then after two years of killing Iraqis with road side and suicide bombers, and attempting to destroy the infrastructure of the country, Al-Queda offers a "truce" to the people of Iraq and Afghanistan?, while swearing to destroy America? And I see no Arab neighbors bending their backs to assist these two nations. In fact I see indifference or actual attempts at sabatoge, and undermining the rebuild process, by Iraq's oen "neighbors". Meanwhile the US and allies keep rebuilding...
What does Iraq mean to someone like me? I volunteered to go there, and so did my family, because they believe as I do, that Iraq and Afghanistan are worthy of assisting. So, they are there today, and I go every six to ten months or so.
And you know what? There is a difference between an Iraqi, an Afghani, a Syrian, or someone from Saud. But one has to spend time with them to know that (and shake off the stereotypes).
So who cares about the Iraqi people? Lot's of folks and governments. I wouldn't trust everything (I'm being kind here), the media says on either side of the pond. I'd research the facts.
my thoughts
v/r
Q
T
truthseeker
Guest
We're coming from two different sides in which the side you are on, I disagree with. However, I agree with what you are saying and I believe that your intensions are good. I am not the kind of person that does what you do, I would come at it from a different approach. The approach you support doesn't sound good to me but I can't say mine could be any better when you are talking about restructuring a culture and ideology. Weren't we supposed to be going after Bin Laden and his brotherhood? What the heck happened to that? People are dying because we believe they should not be ruled by a totalitarian government? Isn't that for them to decide? Something is missing. Something is underminded and it ain't right.
truthseeker said:
Perhaps you are the correct one. However, something must be done. If I clean a house and put nothing in it, then anything can enter, and that might be worse than what was swept out of it in the first place.
There is something missing! The heart and soul and fire of the Iraqi people is missing. Where is the determination? Where is the drive? Where is the resolve to survive, to overcome, to thrive? Where is self determination? What happened to a whole people that they've forgotten their roots? The first people to have a legitimate, effective and just legal system, that had an awesome empire born on its soil, that influenced the whole of the known world for over a thousand years...withdraw from everything, hide in mud bungalows, fear everything and everyone.
Are their spirits broken? They will let outsiders (not Americans or allies), dictate how they shall live? They will let religious clerics dictate to their sons and daughters what to do, how to do it, and be grateful? For what? Being alive? They're being told it is better to be dead, and take a few infidels with them!
I don't see the Clerics blowing themselves up...do you? Nor their Lueutenants. No, we can't sit back and do nothing.
If Iraq had beaten and taken over Iran, who in the Middle East would have batted an eye? How about if Iraq took over Kuwait? Or had they destroyed the Kurds? Bless their hearts I think even Turkey would have been hard pressed to react, as it would have caused an internal tug of war, meanwhile "Persia" would have "risen" again.
Perhaps you are right. There are polititians, and leaders, and well wishers, and advocates, and lobbyists...and then there are soldiers. Soldiers however, deal face to face with the common folk (just like them), on a day to day basis. And we learn from those folk, things the muckety muck never learn (or learn vaguely).
And guess what my friend, Joe citizen of Iraq does not want American or ally GI joe, to leave...not yet. Not quite yet. Ask them (not me).
And I'll tell you another thing. We don't want to stay, but are hesitant to leave, because we develop feelings for people we meet and live with. We take possesion of them (in a fraternal/intimate sort of way), and they do the same to us.
so, who really cares about the Iraqi people? the soldier does. Just ask 'em.
v/r
Q
Curios Mike
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 139
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
WOW Very inspiring Quahom1. Ive read books by Soldiers in Iraq and they agree pretty much with what you have just said. I cant say I'm a big fan of Prez Bush(could have cared even less for Kerry), but Iraq and Afgan I agreed with. Iraq mostly becuase we took to much BS from that man in Iraq, and the UN (what 8 to 10 years with 17 resolutions). Especially from the UN and its oil for food feasco. Anyways if we pull out before their is a good infastructure their; what do you think will happen 5 to 10 years down the road. Weather you agree with the war or not to pull out so soon will cost even more lives! Mainly Iraqi at 1st, but eventuall it will hit the U.S. again becuase Al-quida and its allies will view Iraq as a victory and only encourage them more to attack our soil again. Just like Clintons goof up in Somolia did.
Are we kiddin ourselves? The Iraqi people went to vote in numbers the US never does. And they were risking their lives to do so. If we were told their was potential that their would be suicide bombers at our poling places and had to dip our finger in ink to prove we voted, and had to wait in line for hours to vote, and their was no traffic allowed on the streets, ie we had to walk to the polls...our percentage in the US would decrease dramatically, not increase.
Where is their drive? They have lost many of their countrymen, and continue to lose many more everyday due to insurgents than we. They are standing in line to be trained to take over as US forces draw down. They are getting killed while they stand in that line, yet they come back. For every trained Iraqi that loses his life in the protection of his country 10 step up to take his place.
Does anyone think we are rebuilding alone, the Iraqi people are attempting to rebuild their country as well, getting their kids back in school, getting back to work, getting power and water to their homes...this they are working for.
Imagine the devestation New Orleans recieved, and the looting and dissarray that followed...imagine that for the entire state of California. And then imagine that the turmoil the hurricane doesn't last a day and the waters are gone in a couple weeks...but the turmoil stays for a couple years...
The Iraqi's have all my respect dealing with a totalitarian regime for 30 years, two wars in the past 10 years, living under sanctions, a force freeing/occupying their country, living without abundant food, water, sanitation and power, insurgents flowing across their borders to raise havoc...
I cannot imagine bombs raining down on my city, insurgents blowing up buildings and car bombs running into people in lines. I cannot imagine standing in line for water and food everyday and cooking over fire everyday. I am used to seeing grocery shelves lined with food and refridgerators full and listening to my kids say there is nothing to eat. I can't imagine armed vehicles impeding traffic and check points everywhere. We in the US complain when a policeman parks his car on the median on our commute and makes everyone slow to 10 over the speed limit...
I personally cannot imagine a family having to deal with the above and have to hear
wil said:
Fortunately this kind of trauma and atrocities, are contained to a small part of Iraq, while the rest continues to rebuild (generally three of the 18 provinces).
And the beginnings of the Iraqis picking themselves up, dusting off and walking tall, as you point out is due in some part to allied soldiers remaining in their midst, and offering a hand, and not checking out when things get nasty.
In the big picture, all the world owes Iraq some kind of contribution, for giving the world law, civilization, architecture, art, medicine and many other things we take for granted today.
The world should be caring about Iraq, and not angry with allies for deciding to do something, but furious with foriegn insurgents and entities who want to destroy anything and everything. That is where world anger should be focused.
v/r
Q
Wouldn't these three areas be considered the most populated areas...so we are only talking San Diego, San Francisco and Sacramento...fortunately
I searched for a map I saw after the first gulf war, where it showed our bombing target selections...and after radar, anti aircraft facilities, air strips, powerplants and major gov't facilites were targeted we went after desalination plants, sewage treatment plants, wells and other such infrastructure....and then with the sanctions the valves, pipes, pumps to rebuild such were on the list of items which could be converted to war use, so could not be imported...which killed untold thousands due to lack of clean drinking water and poor sanitation...but I did find some articles and info
like the car bomb that killed 115 Iraqi's that have no drive
or how about 1 day of air attacks...multiply that by months
or just imagine living in Bagdad or Sacramento, click on the bombs imagine your city...
consider the deaths of your fellow citizens due to war, looting, insurgents...
and while we sit in our armchairs and watch CNN and wax philosphic about the power of the smart bomb and strategic bombing...and consider 450,000 bombs....
the enormity of this cannot be diminished...to me it is incomprehensible.
does anyone really think the people, the citizens of Iraq truly wished this upon themselves (Sadam or the invasion/aftermath)?Quahom1 said:
I'm not saying whether it was just, or if the outcome in the long run dispite tens of thousands without fathers brothers sisters mothers, childresn...that in the long run this will be good for Iraq and the world...it has potential.
But thinking the citizenry of Iraq somehow deserved this is like saying we asked for 9/11.
Q, don't you feel that saying 'it happenned' is too dismissing? I mean we could've tried Sadam in absentia, we could have spent time to get backing from the arab world. Since 9/11 ties were not their, the WMD discussion is mute whether they were moved or whatever...we've got no evidence of that....Quahom1 said:
Spilt milk doesn't just happen, while I agree we have deal with it. To be honorable we not only have to clean it up, we also have to admit we spilt the milk.
Osama's recent tape asked for a truce asked us to quit fighting Muslims in their world. It has often been said the Muslim world and its leaders, the Imans, the Clerics should stand up and distance themselves from the radicals and jihadists. Bush should also right now distance himself from this statement and say, "We are not fighting Muslims, we are fighting terrorists. We have no issue with any religion or nation that does not harbor terrorists, terrorists to world unity. We have an issue and are looking for you Osama, and the people that attacked our country, and the people that are attacking the people and the government of Iraq. We are not fighting Muslims we are fighting the people that follow and support your tactics and devisive speech. If you wish a truce, lead your subordinates out of hiding and into custody for trial, tell your followers to lay down their arms, and respect the laws of the country they are in, and give up your jihad. Tell your people to quit kiling Iraqi's and go home, or help rebuild Iraq's economy and infrastructure, and when that is accomplished, we will go home."
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Well, the OP strikes me as a very loaded question, especially given the poll choices...
I think we all care about the Iraqi people and just like every other complex issue different people/nations approach it with different ideologies and goals in mind, and these goals conflict.
I opposed the US initiation of war in Iraqi before it started--even considered sitting on someone's doorstep in protest except that I had a 1-year-old at the time. Saddam was cruel dictator and the chance to change that is a 'just' opportunity, in my mind. However, there are lots of situations around the world where injustice prevails and yet we don't jump into those conflicts until they touch on American interest. I know there are reasons for this, some good some less so, but war is costly in so many ways, especially lives, that doing anything that escalates the loss of life should be approached with more care than was taken, IMO.
But, now that we're in it I agree that we have to see it through to the best ends possible. Pulling out now would be worse than going in in the first place. The last thing that should be done is to leave a weak Iraq as a vacuum to be filled...I wish there was more unity among the nations on this and other conflicts around the world.
2 c,
lunamoth
I think we all care about the Iraqi people and just like every other complex issue different people/nations approach it with different ideologies and goals in mind, and these goals conflict.
I opposed the US initiation of war in Iraqi before it started--even considered sitting on someone's doorstep in protest except that I had a 1-year-old at the time. Saddam was cruel dictator and the chance to change that is a 'just' opportunity, in my mind. However, there are lots of situations around the world where injustice prevails and yet we don't jump into those conflicts until they touch on American interest. I know there are reasons for this, some good some less so, but war is costly in so many ways, especially lives, that doing anything that escalates the loss of life should be approached with more care than was taken, IMO.
But, now that we're in it I agree that we have to see it through to the best ends possible. Pulling out now would be worse than going in in the first place. The last thing that should be done is to leave a weak Iraq as a vacuum to be filled...I wish there was more unity among the nations on this and other conflicts around the world.
2 c,
lunamoth
lunamoth said:
I agree, with most of what you say Luna. But you should realize that this has been a powder keg since 1984 (at least), and some would say 1979.
We have a substantial population of Arab-Americans here in the United States. A poll of them states that even if we pulled out tomorrow, this will not end. Iraq will not survive, Iran will take over, Syria will lay claim to the north, Kuwait will fall to Iran, as will Saudi Arabia. And...Israel will be attacked, with the intention of driving them into the sea once and for all. Then, Israel will launch nuclear weapons against the agressors (weapons, they supposedly do not have)...
I like to keep things simple, but then nothing is simple in reality. The US pulling out of the middle east is exactly what the enemy wants.
And Wil, I'm not as naive as you take me to be...
v/r
Q
T
truthseeker
Guest
Quahom1 said:
Glad to hear that.
I think you are debating the scraps you've been thrown by media. Isn't it coincidental that Iran is acting up and we just happen to be in the region. No one is talking about this but it sure seems convenient that if unrest and nuclear arms continue to grow there we wouldn't have very far to go to fight them if need be.
I have very mixed feelings about all that has occurred in this region. Not only from the Arab side but ours as well. I believe we are so powerful and so influential that the littlest thing we do has an enormous ripple effect across the world. We are held to a higher standard than other countries. I'm not saying that we should be but the fact is that we are. How many millions of people across the globe watch our news? We are being watched very closely by a lot of people and these people for the most part are educated and informed. We on the other hand couldn't be bothered with the next Prime Minister of Canada or other misc. facts from other countries.
Why did we choose Iraq? Because of Osama bin Laden? I really don't think so. Anyone that followed the process could see there was a strange and suspicious leap from Afghanistan and Osama to WMD in Iraq. After many recommendations by the UN we were urged to hold off and not invade. We fanned our nose at them and went in anyways. Nothing was found and no one talks of Osama. We the people are smarter than that. The powers that be would love for us to think that this is all for a noble cause. We're taking out a ruthless tyrant! Yeah, but what about all the other ruthless tyrants in the world? Why aren't we after them?
I've got to say, though, that I am impressed by the Iraqi response to the war and democracy. They want it and who can blame them? We just might pull this one off yet. I think there are a lot of Arabs out there that want democracy. I think it will be a long haul and I know that there can be good that comes out of it in the long run. However, there will be a lot of resentment and bitterness too.
I guess what i mean is that we have some serious capabilities in this country. Technology that we aren't aware of and I bet the US gov. knew of this possibilty with Iran years before it happened. To be honest it's good to know that if we need to we will be that close to them if they start firing nukes. Maybe this all has to come to it's inevitable conclusion. We're certainly not capable as a people and governments to turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor on a global scale, not yet at least. So i guess until that day comes we'll do what man throughout time and civilizations have always done. Peace by force.
I have very mixed feelings about all that has occurred in this region. Not only from the Arab side but ours as well. I believe we are so powerful and so influential that the littlest thing we do has an enormous ripple effect across the world. We are held to a higher standard than other countries. I'm not saying that we should be but the fact is that we are. How many millions of people across the globe watch our news? We are being watched very closely by a lot of people and these people for the most part are educated and informed. We on the other hand couldn't be bothered with the next Prime Minister of Canada or other misc. facts from other countries.
Why did we choose Iraq? Because of Osama bin Laden? I really don't think so. Anyone that followed the process could see there was a strange and suspicious leap from Afghanistan and Osama to WMD in Iraq. After many recommendations by the UN we were urged to hold off and not invade. We fanned our nose at them and went in anyways. Nothing was found and no one talks of Osama. We the people are smarter than that. The powers that be would love for us to think that this is all for a noble cause. We're taking out a ruthless tyrant! Yeah, but what about all the other ruthless tyrants in the world? Why aren't we after them?
I've got to say, though, that I am impressed by the Iraqi response to the war and democracy. They want it and who can blame them? We just might pull this one off yet. I think there are a lot of Arabs out there that want democracy. I think it will be a long haul and I know that there can be good that comes out of it in the long run. However, there will be a lot of resentment and bitterness too.
I guess what i mean is that we have some serious capabilities in this country. Technology that we aren't aware of and I bet the US gov. knew of this possibilty with Iran years before it happened. To be honest it's good to know that if we need to we will be that close to them if they start firing nukes. Maybe this all has to come to it's inevitable conclusion. We're certainly not capable as a people and governments to turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor on a global scale, not yet at least. So i guess until that day comes we'll do what man throughout time and civilizations have always done. Peace by force.
The media scraps as you put it are in fact just that. Iran does not like America in their back yard anymore than they like Israel to exist. Iran could care less whether Iraq continues to exist either. Iran does not care for Arabs (they consider them desert dwellers). Iranians are "Persians", and speak Farsi...(there is no love lost between Iran and its neighbors). Their bigotry against Arabs is worse than the rest of the world could ever be.
Live and let live, and do your own thing (as long as it harms no one else). You have the right and should have the freedom to do so...perhaps that motto is what bothers the rest of the world. Or maybe it is because the rest of the world still thinks of the US as the "garbage heap". After all, this is where the world's "junk" comes to settle. Even the Statue of Liberty proclaims much the same sentiment. Why should we be bothered to know President Fox of Mexico, or Prime Minister Harper of Canada? We don't even know our own Senators and Congressmen, let alone our local and county and state representitives...(am being facetious).
In 1988 Iraq attacked the United States without provocation. The target was the USS Ward. The two exocet missles nearly cut the frigate in half (the crew stitched the ship together with aircraft cable). 27 persons died. The apology was a joke, followed by "it is the Americans' fault".
In 1993 Al-Queda blew up a bomb in the parking garage of the World Trade center...it didn't bring about the American Ire. We held our anger in check. The teams came from Iraq. Isn't that interesting?
I think you are looking at media scraps this time. 15 of the 18 Provinces in Iraq are living well, and more or less democratically. But the media focusses only on the three provinces where there is trouble. But even in those provinces, progress is being made. No small progress. and not without the help of the coalition there.
That is the beauty of this country. We do not "flex" our muscles arbitrarily. And the Texas President talks first, then acts. He just doesn't wait for a general consensus...
Iran is a dangerous country, one that America and Israel are not taking lightly.
Any nation that declares another nation has no right to exist, should be taken seriously, and should be put under shackles.
my thoughts
v/r
Q