pohaikawahine
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bb - mahalo nui for the reference to both books by mary douglas .... absolutely fascinating and i have much more to read and digest ....
here is a short quote from chapter 4 "mountain, tabernacle, body in leviticus 1-7" (it is the preface to the chapter) "rabbi levi said: the upper waters are male and the lower waters are female, and these say to those: receive us, you are the creation of the holy one, blessed be he, and we are his envoys. immediately they receive them, like the female that opens before the male .... rabbi abahu called the upper waters 'bridegroom' and the lower waters 'bride' .... other sages speak of the earth as the wife of the rain, which is the husband." (Patai 1947:67)
"wife of the rain, which is the husband" .... this is the first time I've seen this from the perspective of a 'sage' (which I am assuming is referring to the sages of judaism???) but it is in my view so clearly related to what we would call the marriage of sky father and earth mother .... in hawaii nei this would be the world of wakea (the heavens or sky) and the world (earth) of papa .... or in native american tradition sky father and earth mother .... the rain is considered to be the tears of the gods and the chants tell us that from the void, the origin of time, follows the rain which cools the earth ....
also the reference to the upper water as male and the lower water as female .... in the hawaiian chant we speak of two waters "hanau kane ia wai'ololi, o ka wahine ia wai'olola" which translates as "born was man for the narrow stream, the woman for the broad stream"
this is only to suggest that both sources may be connected symbolically .... we even have our own rituals for the division of food and the sacrifice of animals, but the creatures would be much different because many of the animals mentioned in leviticus do not live in the south pacific .... but certain parts (traditionally) were given to different village chiefs based on their position in the whole society .... anyway just a note to say this is all so interesting ....
from "in the wilderness" (mary douglas) I'm reading the part of "Israel, the Mystic Bride" .... she looks as the possibility that the reference to 'women' may actually be a reference to 'a woman' (namely Israel, the Mystic Bride) and some of the images may be prophetic images for Israel's infidelity to G-d .... which would shed a whole different light on the interpretations in some of the parshas (especially related to Genesis) ....this would also fit with some of the references to the 'bride' as seen in the perspective of the kaballist .... and specifically in the 'song of songs' ....
then the refernce to 'sin-offerings' if the 'sinner' is either a priest (Lev 4:8-11) or the whole congregation (Lev 4:21) .... would seem to tie into the whole concept of the exodus and wandering in the wilderness .... (I don't know where this one is going, but the opening of the path looks inviting) ....
and her whole discussion of the symbolism of the "liver lobe" as a remnant to be saved .... "yet I will leave some of you alive' (Ezekiel 6:8) may be "an ingenious word play the long liver lobe would stand for the remainder of the people after the disaster that befell them.... it would express the leviticus writer's concern about the fate of israel and jerusalem .... in such a context, consecrating the liver lobe on the altar is like praying for a remnant to be saved, a reminder to G-d that he promised to bring his scattered people back again."
in reading these two references, the whole discussion and question about whether or not "animals are still sacraficed" by the jewish people relates to such a superficial interpretation of the OT .... the symbols and the inner meanings for each ritual and each act runs so much deeper .... something I always suspected but could not find the right references until now because I had never actually looked at the act of sacrifice symbolically through the animals .... today such sacrifices are not done, but the meaning does not change .... we of course also slaughter many animals and cut down many trees without any thought of reciprocation and thanks for their sacrifice to feed us which makes us lose our connection to the whole cycle of life ....
even in the south pacific when one when out at night to draw water from a well, it was important to toss in a small pebble to announce your arrival to the spirits of the water and thank them ..... small ritual, but large implications for understanding and balance ....
all this may not make much sense right now .... I'm just writing stuff from the top of my head .... the books are so exciting to read ....I suspect I can also apply some of this knowledge to a better understanding of some aspects of my own culture .... aloha nui, poh
p.s. another important point "the hebrew words for parts of the anatomy often have diverse meanings .... the word for head can mean summit of a mountain, leader, chief, as well as the head of a body." .... this would possibly correspond to the concept that what happens in the head (via the sprialling energy that runs up the spinal column) is related to meanings of what happens on the 'mountain top' which in the hawaiian concept would be the wild place of the gods or the 'wao akua" (a place seldom accessed by man) .... she (mary douglas) also says "the summit of the mountain is the abode of G-d; below is the cloudy region which only Moses was allowed to enter; and lastly the vast, lower slopes where the priests and congregation waited.... the order of parts of the anmial on the altar marks out three zones on the carcass, the suet set around and below the diaphragm corresponding to the cloud girdling the middle of the mountain .... a perfect example of analogical writing..." in the ancient ways of hawaii, the mountain is divided into zones and each zone has a meaning related to the survival of the whole community .... the gods also live above the clouds which in some myths are considered to be the home of the gods (those clouds) .....
here is a short quote from chapter 4 "mountain, tabernacle, body in leviticus 1-7" (it is the preface to the chapter) "rabbi levi said: the upper waters are male and the lower waters are female, and these say to those: receive us, you are the creation of the holy one, blessed be he, and we are his envoys. immediately they receive them, like the female that opens before the male .... rabbi abahu called the upper waters 'bridegroom' and the lower waters 'bride' .... other sages speak of the earth as the wife of the rain, which is the husband." (Patai 1947:67)
"wife of the rain, which is the husband" .... this is the first time I've seen this from the perspective of a 'sage' (which I am assuming is referring to the sages of judaism???) but it is in my view so clearly related to what we would call the marriage of sky father and earth mother .... in hawaii nei this would be the world of wakea (the heavens or sky) and the world (earth) of papa .... or in native american tradition sky father and earth mother .... the rain is considered to be the tears of the gods and the chants tell us that from the void, the origin of time, follows the rain which cools the earth ....
also the reference to the upper water as male and the lower water as female .... in the hawaiian chant we speak of two waters "hanau kane ia wai'ololi, o ka wahine ia wai'olola" which translates as "born was man for the narrow stream, the woman for the broad stream"
this is only to suggest that both sources may be connected symbolically .... we even have our own rituals for the division of food and the sacrifice of animals, but the creatures would be much different because many of the animals mentioned in leviticus do not live in the south pacific .... but certain parts (traditionally) were given to different village chiefs based on their position in the whole society .... anyway just a note to say this is all so interesting ....
from "in the wilderness" (mary douglas) I'm reading the part of "Israel, the Mystic Bride" .... she looks as the possibility that the reference to 'women' may actually be a reference to 'a woman' (namely Israel, the Mystic Bride) and some of the images may be prophetic images for Israel's infidelity to G-d .... which would shed a whole different light on the interpretations in some of the parshas (especially related to Genesis) ....this would also fit with some of the references to the 'bride' as seen in the perspective of the kaballist .... and specifically in the 'song of songs' ....
then the refernce to 'sin-offerings' if the 'sinner' is either a priest (Lev 4:8-11) or the whole congregation (Lev 4:21) .... would seem to tie into the whole concept of the exodus and wandering in the wilderness .... (I don't know where this one is going, but the opening of the path looks inviting) ....
and her whole discussion of the symbolism of the "liver lobe" as a remnant to be saved .... "yet I will leave some of you alive' (Ezekiel 6:8) may be "an ingenious word play the long liver lobe would stand for the remainder of the people after the disaster that befell them.... it would express the leviticus writer's concern about the fate of israel and jerusalem .... in such a context, consecrating the liver lobe on the altar is like praying for a remnant to be saved, a reminder to G-d that he promised to bring his scattered people back again."
in reading these two references, the whole discussion and question about whether or not "animals are still sacraficed" by the jewish people relates to such a superficial interpretation of the OT .... the symbols and the inner meanings for each ritual and each act runs so much deeper .... something I always suspected but could not find the right references until now because I had never actually looked at the act of sacrifice symbolically through the animals .... today such sacrifices are not done, but the meaning does not change .... we of course also slaughter many animals and cut down many trees without any thought of reciprocation and thanks for their sacrifice to feed us which makes us lose our connection to the whole cycle of life ....
even in the south pacific when one when out at night to draw water from a well, it was important to toss in a small pebble to announce your arrival to the spirits of the water and thank them ..... small ritual, but large implications for understanding and balance ....
all this may not make much sense right now .... I'm just writing stuff from the top of my head .... the books are so exciting to read ....I suspect I can also apply some of this knowledge to a better understanding of some aspects of my own culture .... aloha nui, poh
p.s. another important point "the hebrew words for parts of the anatomy often have diverse meanings .... the word for head can mean summit of a mountain, leader, chief, as well as the head of a body." .... this would possibly correspond to the concept that what happens in the head (via the sprialling energy that runs up the spinal column) is related to meanings of what happens on the 'mountain top' which in the hawaiian concept would be the wild place of the gods or the 'wao akua" (a place seldom accessed by man) .... she (mary douglas) also says "the summit of the mountain is the abode of G-d; below is the cloudy region which only Moses was allowed to enter; and lastly the vast, lower slopes where the priests and congregation waited.... the order of parts of the anmial on the altar marks out three zones on the carcass, the suet set around and below the diaphragm corresponding to the cloud girdling the middle of the mountain .... a perfect example of analogical writing..." in the ancient ways of hawaii, the mountain is divided into zones and each zone has a meaning related to the survival of the whole community .... the gods also live above the clouds which in some myths are considered to be the home of the gods (those clouds) .....
