Evolution

[Postmaster]

Have humans reached some sort of limit in the evolutionary plan?

We have the ability to create a tool for a tool for a tool to infinity. In other words there is no limit to what we want to do, in almost a godly way. Just to think there's only about a few 100 thousand years separating us from chimps it's actually a scary thought.

World wars 1 and 2, 70 million people died as a result of the wars. Let's not forget all the wars humanity has fort in it's history, that would be a massive death rate due to conflict, I bet no other animal in the animal kingdom could achieve these figures of self specie killing.

An other one of human suffering is the extreme mental disabilities we suffer from, depression, anxiety, schizophrenia etc etc in about 10 years this will be the biggest health problems of humans. I refuse to believe any other animal would suffer to the extent as a human does with mental health.

Also as I mentioned before on this forum, humans understand death in a way other animals don't because we expect it, maybe animals do not expect it, most likely they don't. This heavy burden drives us faster to acommplishing things.

This post has started as a result of me doing a lot of thinking why we are so different to animals, why we accomplish what we do. If you have any thoughts please share.

 

[Silverbackman]

Have humans reached some sort of limit in the evolutionary plan?

We have the ability to create a tool for a tool for a tool to infinity. In other words there is no limit to what we want to do, in almost a godly way. Just to think there's only about a few 100 thousand years separating us from chimps it's actually a scary thought.

World wars 1 and 2, 70 million people died as a result of the wars. Let's not forget all the wars humanity has fort in it's history, that would be a massive death rate due to conflict, I bet no other animal in the animal kingdom could achieve these figures of self specie killing.

An other one of human suffering is the extreme mental disabilities we suffer from, depression, anxiety, schizophrenia etc etc in about 10 years this will be the biggest health problems of humans. I refuse to believe any other animal would suffer to the extent as a human does with mental health.

Also as I mentioned before on this forum, humans understand death in a way other animals don't because we expect it, maybe animals do not expect it, most likely they don't. This heavy burden drives us faster to acommplishing things.

This post has started as a result of me doing a lot of thinking why we are so different to animals, why we accomplish what we do. If you have any thoughts please share.

We actually aren't that different from other animals. In fact one might look at humans as the artistic projection of mammalian life .

What separates us from other animals is obviously our big nervous system. Our nervous systems after nearly 6 million years of evolution has become so advanced that yes, we do have an infinite tool kit you can say. Homo sapiens at least. Neanderthals were close, but they didn't receive the stimuli needed to create the fittest humans like we sapiens got.

With our big powerful nervous system obviously came a lot more diseases. We definitely have more disorders in the brain (thus the mind) because we tend to over-dramatized our otherwise pretty simple existence in comparison to what might be far more powerful sentient beings across the universe. Other animals tend to live simple lives, the only thing on their minds being food and reproduction. Chimps can take this to the next level and some researchers do think they are capable of pre-meditated murder believe it or not.

Our tool kit may seem infinite, and probably is. Nature has made our species with God-like minds (something the Biblical God hates in us humans as seen in the Adam and Eve story ). With this new mind, never seen before on Earth, we may one day receive the tools needed for immortality (such as Jay Tipler's Omega Point). Or we may even be able to bring back freshly dead people. In fact this technology may not be that far away. The goal of life besides reproduction is to stay alive. Perhaps this is the goal of all life, to evolve to a point where we can find the tools in a physical realm for immortality. Nature has given us this power, and it is a shame people waste it on unproven ways for immortality (ie putting trust in a dead wise man like Jesus being God).

 

[Quahom1]

We actually aren't that different from other animals. In fact one might look at humans as the artistic projection of mammalian life .

What separates us from other animals is obviously our big nervous system. Our nervous systems after nearly 6 million years of evolution has become so advanced that yes, we do have an infinite tool kit you can say. Homo sapiens at least. Neanderthals were close, but they didn't receive the stimuli needed to create the fittest humans like we sapiens got.

With our big powerful nervous system obviously came a lot more diseases. We definitely have more disorders in the brain (thus the mind) because we tend to over-dramatized our otherwise pretty simple existence in comparison to what might be far more powerful sentient beings across the universe. Other animals tend to live simple lives, the only thing on their minds being food and reproduction. Chimps can take this to the next level and some researchers do think they are capable of pre-meditated murder believe it or not.

Our tool kit may seem infinite, and probably is. Nature has made our species with God-like minds (something the Biblical God hates in us humans as seen in the Adam and Eve story ). With this new mind, never seen before on Earth, we may one day receive the tools needed for immortality (such as Jay Tipler's Omega Point). Or we may even be able to bring back freshly dead people. In fact this technology may not be that far away. The goal of life besides reproduction is to stay alive. Perhaps this is the goal of all life, to evolve to a point where we can find the tools in a physical realm for immortality. Nature has given us this power, and it is a shame people waste it on unproven ways for immortality (ie putting trust in a dead wise man like Jesus being God).

The Biblical God never ever stated He hated the Human mind. In fact according to scripture, the Biblical God brought forth every living creature for "man" to name. Then the Biblical God realized that it was not good for man to be alone (to have an equal, a partner with like mind), so man's counterpart came into being. Alike, yet polar opposites the two are a tag team. They physically fit perfectly and their minds fit together perfectly.

It is our desires and self-centeredness that gets us into trouble. Not our intelligence.

As far as Jesus being dead...what is death to an evolved creature, with an evolved mind? The evolved mind knows there is no such thing as total death, not even in the physical realm. There is only change.

As far as bringing back the freshly dead, well we can physically animate a dead body. We can even stimulate the body to continue functioning basically. But we can't put the life essence that was housed in that body back, once it has departed. That is beyond our technical ability. We may even be able to record from the brain the "memories" as such that the brain contains, but they would only be that, recordings of what occured.

Without the spirit that originally was housed in that body and mind, what we would have is an automaton, a electrochemical robot, following external stimuli.

As far as physically staying alive forever? Well the only thing keeping us from doing that is a tiny switch in our genomes that trips at a specific time, causing the body to stop regenerating and start degenerating. Nature did it on purpose, in order to insure the continuation of the species and further evolving, as opposed to stagnation. (Why make more babies if you live forever?) Nature knows its limits to support life on this rock. The only way to perfect the species is to recombine genetic material to create better fit life forms.

Finally, why would one want to remain here on this ball forever? Like why would one want to remain in the womb forever? After time, boredom sets in. Once there is nothing more to be learned or developed, it is time to move on. Also, if one is growing properly, in time the womb becomes too small, and so will this life on this planet...

my thoughts

v/r

Q

 

[Jaiket]

Have humans reached some sort of limit in the evolutionary plan?

No.

 

[Quahom1]

No.

LOL agreed. We've just begun...

 

[MagnetMan]

Have humans reached some sort of limit in the evolutionary plan?

I believe that our evolution is approaching mid-cycle. Human consciouness first surfaced in the Stone Age, perhaps around 2.5 million years ago. That first naive state of self-awareness is defined by the social cultivation of the sharing ethic - still evident among the Bushman of the Kalakari.

Our success at sharing led to population expansion and environmental over-load. When a hunter/gathering way of life no longer became tenable, we left Eden to toil in the soil around 20,000 years ago. (Oldest seed store is about 15,000 BC)

The Bronze Age of oral-based agricultural traditions lasted until around 4000 BC. (First evidence of scripture and city construction.)

Protest against rigid Iron Age scriptural dogma began about 500. BC. (Aristotle etc.) This 4th Age (I call it Steel Age) of scientific self-determinism peaked with Newton's idea of a predicatable clockwork universe.

The Nuclear Age, which refuted Newton and claimed inderminability, began in 1900.

There is no cut and dried end to an Age and the start of a new one. As we are only four generations into the Nuclear Age, we still carry all the baggage of th Steel Age (And some of the Iron )-- ie, Rebelious declarations of national independence, self determinism, environmental exploitation, religious wars, prodigal gambling with with Russian roulette with nuclear guns, fast cars, fast women etc etc. In this repect we are behaving almost exactly like irresponsible teenagers.

Many millions are sobering up and begining to realize it is time to take our planet managment responsibilities a lot more seriously. (Prodigal son returns to Father's Estate) When we all reach this initial state of adult consciousness, as responsible global stewards and we have the planet running smoothly, the Nuclear Age will end.

I believe we will then enter an Age of Mastership and begin terra forming. When that Age is complete, we will enter sagehood. Our cycle will end and we will become cosmically transcendental.

I call this private theory Psyche-Genetics. It gives me a clear view of our past; reverence for anceral effort; a sane look at the temporary termoil of the present; and a comforting vision of our future potential. My children like it as well,
Cheers

 

[MagnetMan]

THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN INDIVIDUAL DEVELOPMENT
AND COLLECTIVE EVOLUTION

I created this diagram as a guide to self awareness. It explains everything said on the previous post.

 

[sara[h]ng]

There is no cut and dried end to an Age and the start of a new one. As we are only four generations into the Nuclear Age, we still carry all the baggage of th Steel Age (And some of the Iron )-- ie, Rebelious declarations of national independence, self determinism, environmental exploitation, religious wars, prodigal gambling with with Russian roulette with nuclear guns, fast cars, fast women etc etc. In this repect we are behaving almost exactly like irresponsible teenagers.

I really like this idea. I've vaguely heard of this kind of thing before, but it's never really made sense. I totally get it now. Great. : )
Interesting illustration, though a little inflammatory for some.

Sarah

 

[Quahom1]

I really like this idea. I've vaguely heard of this kind of thing before, but it's never really made sense. I totally get it now. Great. : )
Interesting illustration, though a little inflammatory for some.

Sarah

Oh, for cying out loud, no one gets anything...It isn't making sense. Life is not so complex. Simple is as simple does.


Are we supossed to be enlightened now? I mean it Magnetman, are we to now be enlightended from your great WISDOM? Are we so stupid that only YOU have the answers? Is that your message?

well, ok, Sarah thinks so. but this ignorant Christian Western American does not.

 

[path_of_one]

I'll just say... judging from the overall morality of society and how peaceful, egalitarian, and pleasant social life is, I'd say we DEVOLVED from the time of the hunter-gatherers.

Most hunter-gatherer societies:
Were egalitarian both between genders and without social classes.
Spent only about 20 hours per week on ALL work that had to get done, including getting food, preparing it, making shelters, etc. The rest of the time was spent telling stories, playing with kids, gambling (which had no consequence, since everyone could make more of everything- just a pastime), dancing, singing and drumming, and just hanging out.
Were peaceful and rarely had war.
Rarely had famines or "poverty" in the sense of an underclass of people who couldn't eat or have shelter. We now have millions who starve to death every year.
Were close-knit in their family groups and settled disagreements peacefully by moving for a while.
Incorporated spirituality and religion firmly into everyday life- most of the time their "religion" included everything about how they perceived their world, social and environmental ethics, etc.

Now, tell me again why it has been EVOLUTION (i.e., some kind of progress) to get to our current state of nuclear arms, severe gaps between rich and poor, famines, and an average 50 hour workweek for US citizens (and that's before grocery shopping or doing laundry!)?

Sorry, but I'm just not buying it. Evolution works in a biological sense, but not in a social one. I don't currently know of any social scientists who buy into a social evolution idea. All societies and cultures are adaptations to specific environments and ways of making a living from said environments. If anything, we've "progressed" to a culture/society that is unsustainble, more or less divorces spiritual life from the rest of life (with obvious personal and social consequences), and is just plain cruel- to others, to the environment, to just about everyone and everything.

And as a footnote, I will add that most social scientists and indigenous peoples whose cultures stem from hunter-gatherer societies would resent the implication from that chart that we Western US people are more "evolved" and somehow better than they are. Just as Q here takes offence that the chart implies that Universalists are superior and more "evolved" than mere Protestants.

Just being blunt here...
As a social scientist, I find the chart offensive. My intuition from my spirituality also finds it offensive.

And, by the way, I find the social complexity categories (clan, nation, etc.) to be incorrectly paired with technological advancement and the dates to be wrong. For example, agriculture only began about 10,000 years ago with the domestication of wolves and sheep (for the Old World, New World domestication was an independent invention that happened a bit later). Plant domestication came later still. Industrialism did not occur anywhere near 4000 BC- it is very very recent (around 1700 AD depending on your criteria). Hunter-gatherers are not merely animistic, they are also generally shamanistic. And how does the chart speak to the non-Western religions? How do they fit into the Biblicist/Protestant stages? There are other problems, but I'm just giving a few examples so that you are aware.

 

[MagnetMan]

I really like this idea. I've vaguely heard of this kind of thing before, but it's never really made sense. I totally get it now. Great. : )
Interesting illustration, though a little inflammatory for some.

Sarah

I am glad it enlightened you. How right your last observation was Sarah. There are some who cannot bear a new idea that contradicts conventional wisdom.

 

[MagnetMan]

Oh, for cying out loud, no one gets anything...It isn't making sense. Life is not so complex. Simple is as simple does.


Are we supossed to be enlightened now? I mean it Magnetman, are we to now be enlightended from your great WISDOM? Are we so stupid that only YOU have the answers? Is that your message?

well, ok, Sarah thinks so. but this ignorant Christian Western American does not.

My dear fellow, such passion! Is this a PUI? The idea illustrated above is not mine. It is gleaned from our entire evolution. I have climbed upon a pulpit to preach - certainly - hopefully words of wisdom. But I have not set my person upon a pedestal. I am a shitmachine just like you.

 

[MagnetMan]

I'll just say... judging from the overall morality of society and how peaceful, egalitarian, and pleasant social life is, I'd say we DEVOLVED from the time of the hunter-gatherers.

I can understand how you feel about this and in a sense you are right. We have made a mess of things since leaving Eden. But we have accomplished great things as well! You have to be more forgiving. If things were always perfect we would learn nothing and the whole point of Creation would have no meaning. If you examine the diagram I posted a little more closely, you will see that our evolution is an on-going process. We have not yet reached our full maturity. We are still in our destructive teens. Even though we face the danger of a nuclear holocaust, I believe in our high destiny with all my heart and mind. Look how we have used our horticultural technology, for instance, to turn a wild blossom into a magnificient rose. Eden will return - even better than it was before. Surely God's goblet brims with the sweat distilled from our brow!

 

[seattlegal]

Look how we have used our horticultural technology, for instance, to turn a wild blossom into a magnificient rose. Eden will return - even better than it was before. Surely God's goblet brims with the sweat distilled from our brow!

Actually, I prefer wild strawberries over the tasteless monstrosities we now have. {I admit, that is a personal preferance.} Finding wild strawberries these days has become a very rare occurence, unfortunately...

 

[MagnetMan]

Actually, I prefer wild strawberries over the tasteless monstrosities we now have. {I admit, that is a personal preferance.} Finding wild strawberries these days has become a very rare occurence, unfortunately...

I love the wild garden too my dear. We live in the high desert, and once every few years enough rain falls to make it bloom. Man can never equal the spectacle. But we are good on detail. Some of the fruit is over-watered to be sure. Buit when man get's it right. Mmmmm!!

 

[sara[h]ng]

Oh, for cying out loud, no one gets anything...It isn't making sense. Life is not so complex. Simple is as simple does.


Are we supossed to be enlightened now? I mean it Magnetman, are we to now be enlightended from your great WISDOM? Are we so stupid that only YOU have the answers? Is that your message?

well, ok, Sarah thinks so. but this ignorant Christian Western American does not.

Do you realize how offensive and self-centered you are being in this post? That something that does not make sense to you does not mean that it does not make sense to others.

There are a few possibilities here. 1: You and your sense of God is wrong, Magnetman's is correct. 2: Magnetman and his sense of 'God' is wrong, and you are correct. 3: Nobody is wrong, the ideas are not in conflict.

No matter what possibility is true, I think that noone can argue that acceptable behavior is something other than what was displayed. A mature person would be open minded about the first possibility. A mature person would be humble about the second possibility. A mature person would be content to let each to their own in regards to the third.

Sarah

 

[Quahom1]

Do you realize how offensive and self-centered you are being in this post? That something that does not make sense to you does not mean that it does not make sense to others.

There are a few possibilities here. 1: You and your sense of God is wrong, Magnetman's is correct. 2: Magnetman and his sense of 'God' is wrong, and you are correct. 3: Nobody is wrong, the ideas are not in conflict.

No matter what possibility is true, I think that noone can argue that acceptable behavior is something other than what was displayed. A mature person would be open minded about the first possibility. A mature person would be humble about the second possibility. A mature person would be content to let each to their own in regards to the third.

Sarah

Mature people don't look down their nose at others. Mature people don't try to make others feel small. Mature people know they don't know everything and don't think everyone else knows nothing.

When I watched the development of my children, as they grew up, I praised and applauded them for what they did know, not drove the critical point home on what I thought they didn't know.

As for your three possibilities as noted above, only position #1. has been quite evident. I merely called bull.

A mature person should be able to handle a skeptic's position instead of attempting to whittle it away or dismiss it as childish thinking, which by the way is the notion I get from some...

v/r

Q

 

[sara[h]ng]

Mature people don't look down their nose at others. Mature people don't try to make others feel small. Mature people know they don't know everything and don't think everyone else knows nothing.

When I watched the development of my children, as they grew up, I praised and applauded them for what they did know, not drove the critical point home on what I thought they didn't know.

As for your three possibilities as noted above, only position #1. has been quite evident. I merely called bull.

A mature person should be able to handle a skeptic's position instead of attempting to whittle it away or dismiss it as childish thinking, which by the way is the notion I get from some...

v/r

Q

I suggest that you consider your statements in context and in regard to your own posts.

I am withdrawing from this conversation.

Sarah

 

[Quahom1]

I suggest that you consider your statements in context and in regard to your own posts.

I am withdrawing from this conversation.

Sarah

Consider it concerning your own Sara.

 

[taijasi]

Now I know I may be accused of coming out of left field on this one, but it's actually right-brain all the way, with left-brain just helping me make my point. And I feel I'm in the right, so nevermind whether what I say is all 100% accurate or not.

In looking back on Magnetman's diagram, and after seeing the recent posts, I want to add something that now I wish I'd done before. When I first looked at the chart, I didn't pay so much attention to the various placement of things like Protestant and Biblicist, and in taking a 2nd glance I suppose I can see how folks might react. But maybe we shouldn't. Here's two good reasons why:

First off, MagnetMan has mentioned animism again and again, his experiences of it and with it, yet it falls at the bottom of his chart. Is he then making a value judgement regarding those who maintain such beliefs, reducing their religion to primitivism - and some of his own beliefs along with it? That would be a bit silly, now wouldn't it!

The second point I want to make, is that even on first glance, I observed that the placement of the central set of spheres (the Ages) on MagnetMan's chart, corresponds to the Eastern teaching on chakras. From root (Muladhara) up to the Crown center (Sahasrara/Brahmarandra), the spheres just happen to align. Perhaps a coincidence, but whether consciously or not (and I suspect the former), I should think it obvious that Magnetman chose this system for a reason.

Now my point, is one that folks might not be familiar with, unless you've studied in some depth the various teachings regarding the purpose, and function, of the seven chakras. In short, they are like energy gateways between the different layers of the aura, or levels of our spiritual being. They are also foci for the vivifying energy(ies) which sustain us, and which nourish even our physical being. But the chakras are much, much more.

Each center has a specific function, and to regard them as gaining in importance as we move from bottom to top (base of spine to top of head) is an oversimplification, and a mistake. For instance, the root center is said to concern balance, alongside fight-or-flight instincts. Spiritually, it is the seat of the very energies which enable Liberation ... the mechanism (or driving force) behind our quest for self-understanding, and for spiritual growth. Without this, life would be pure inertia.

The sacral, or sex centre, is the focus for creative energies, which are eventually sublimated, or re-focused in the throat. And through the spoken word, or a song sung - the Creative power of Sound - all that is, came into being ... and nothing is created without this energy.

The solar plexus, also, bears the energy of our emotions, and moves to the heart once we mature, and learn to Love. Yet are our emotions not important? Could we love if we did not also understand the gamut of emotions which comprise our personality and color our experiences? Are we born with the energies of these centers (chakras) already transformed?

The Vision which is afforded by an active Ajna Center ("3rd Eye") is something necessary if we are to wisely direct the Love of the heart, and wisely use the Creative powers of sound, the spoken word. And just because the Crown center is barely active in the majority of individuals, does not mean that we are blind to spiritual insight, or without Divine guidance. Certainly, if our centers were all opened, and if the energies of Life flowed freely, our lives would all be different, and Heaven on Earth would be more than some lofty ideal.

But I do not sense judgement, and I do not sense condescension. But I will say this. Since I do not have the gifts of clear-sight, and a perfected spiritual understanding ... I would like to learn. I know my ignorance, but I am not proud of it. To the extent that I walk in darkness, I would rather be shown the Light. No, I do not want the blinding brilliance of the Diamond-Soul to be shining in my face 24/7. Usually, it is only a few rays of the pure sunlight that I can withstand. I have yet to learn to walk alongside those who beam the warming rays of sunlight, daily. But they do exist. And I feel certain that they represent our future ... just as they, too, look forward to Spiritual Teachers - for theirs. So we must learn to walk, rather than crawl - before we can learn to fly. And the energies move down the centres, as well as up. They circulate, and move in many directions.

andrew