Bandit said:
this is the way i got it growing up. it was all incorporated into one system. the church, the parents, the leaders, the schools were all doing something for others & they were in agreement.
I think that can come to pass again, but there will be
much reform required ...
Bandit said:
people say more education is the answer, but that has not shown to be true either.
I wouldn't give up on education. In George Carlin's most recent HBO special, he reminded us that here in the US we've gone from
Head Start to
No Child Left Behind ... "sounds like someone's
losing ground here."
And no small wonder. In 2005, the US spent over
$437 billion on
military, which is more than
every other nation combined!!! That is also
well over 50% of our
total spending for the entire year!!!
How much did we spend on education? Well, of the
supposed meagre $34.32 billion that Bush pledged ... only a paltry $24.52 billion
ever actually showed up. That's ummm, slightly
out of proportion - to our military spending. So maybe
if we gave education a chance, for starters by paying our teachers a decent wage, and by revamping the whole system, so that we stopped sending unprepared, under-educated dolts out into our society & workforce,
just maybe things wouldn't be so bad.
I feel
quite passionately about the importance of a good education, and I think the shortcomings rest
not with our teachers (by & large), but with those who are supposed to be leading this great country of ours. What a great example they set ...
Kaldayen said:
some don't have the same possibilities than others, and it's getting worse every day.
We need to see responsible governments encouraging community and personal efforts and creating social programs and access to education. That's not what we see nowadays... we see the exact opposite and some leaders even claim they're working in God's name.
Here in the US, and also in some countries abroad (
but especially here), the filthy stinking materialistic rich are getting
billionaire-buddy-fund-richer .... while those who already have little, are receiving
little-er, and those with nothing, are almost becoming an
untouchables class. You know, the caste system in
India did not start out that way, but look what happened. A Brahmin (the "priestly" caste,
the Pharisees & Sadducees) in India will have
nothing to do with an "untouchable," because of caste. In his eyes, the latter is
less than, not as worthy. Pity - that here in the US, whether admitted or not, this is the same attitude that the
aristocracy maintain.
We have no middle class ... and right now our goverment is
making matters worse, by ensuring that we won't have one! Those who would minister to the needy, and
lobby for the provision to those without, which is
exactly the kind of Christian ideals (being put into action) which Christ advocated ...
are scoffed at, called "bleeding-hearts" (as if that were a bad thing), and told that people must work, not live off of handouts. And yet people are forced into the lowest of jobs, with no benefits, with sweatshop conditions, and that's
if they are fortunate enough to find work at all! Many have various addictions, or mental illness, and
they need help. What about the social programs that might help them?
More budget cuts, gotta fight those Iraqis, gotta build bigger, better bombers, gotta build more nukes, the war machine keeps turnin' ...
And when someone
dares nowadays to bring these things up (which is
Patriotism, par excellence, in my book),
our misguided leaders take
swift action to cry
traitor, and
terrorist, and
Commie, and whatever else they can come up with to put down the rebellion. Some people at CR will remember
McCarthyism, and some of us ... are too young, but can nonetheless feel the disgusting waves of fear & paranoia that
still resound in the ethers, just 50 years later. My God, it's happening all over again ...
path_of_one said:
There are many in the States who would consider themselves "religious" and go to church on Sunday, but still have no problem lying, cheating, stealing, and overall being buttheads the rest of the week. This is one part of the decline of religion- it isn't just more people becoming atheists.
Exactly ... and the converse is certainly true, as you say here:
path_of_one said:
Some of the most moral people I know are secular humanists or agnostics
As Bandit, and others, have said ... it has to do with what's in the heart, not what we preach. Has to do with
how we live our lives from day to day, how we treat others, and why ... not whether we toss a fifty, or a five, in the collection plate - of if we even go to church at all.
Personally, I am
quite proud of my First Amendment Rights ... in this still-great nation ... and I
fear the day when some back-country, short-sighted, narrow-minded
zealot & demagogue steps up and forces me to
bow down to his personal, tribal god. Oh wait ...
To me,
that is blasphemy, and tyranny, and a form of totalitarianism, and only proves how far out of tune, how much out of step, we really are ...
from the BandLeader (name Him if you will, or not at all, if you prefer).
The churches,
imo, could play a
vital role in helping Humanity to come to know, and live by, spiritual values ... and
many churches are so doing. In other situations, I'm afraid that the churches have failed to keep up with the times, and still insist on looking
thousands of years into the past - when what we need, is guidance
for the present, and to help us through these times of
amazing change ... with all of the technology that Bandit and others have referred to. Nothing wrong with technology, electronic or otherwise, just so we use it properly. Worship the
idiot box over in the corner, or
sprawled out across the whole wall (as it is nowadays), and lo, we have our reward. Will it make any difference if we flip to the
televangelist channel? Nope. You'll just go broke a lot faster!
But I don't think we can scapegoat the churches,
or the government (easy as that would be today!),
nor the schools
, nor any other instituation in our society ... for the lack of morals and "family values" that is devastating our nation. We must not forget, that the
family itself is where so much of this inculcation comes from, and when I
do find myself wandering through Target, or Sears, or the grocery store, what I often notice is
children without any discipline, and parents/adults who behave like children. I used to wonder why so many people home-school their children, and I had serious doubts about the whole prospect.
Now, I understand
completely. And I find it a
wonderful idea!!!
And I know that those who do a very careful job,
still manage to help their children understand the value of interaction with others, and often these very home-schoolers are better able to teach their children the
importance of Community, and of
responsibility to one's fellow members of society, and of one's country ... than the public schools (for all their lack of funding).
I have been very privileged to see firsthand a number of Communities that also managed to
beautifully and wonderfully embody the
ideals of a Sustainable Society (being discussed in this, and other threads at present) ... perhaps
decades (or even centuries) ahead of the rest of us! I learned a great deal by being among these people, and by sharing something of the
Heaven on Earth which they
truly live, every day. Interestingly,
not a one of them are founded on conventional
religious principles, at least not as embodied by
any one religion. Yet they are by no means secular, either, welcoming
all, but being
extremely principled, and
quite spiritual. Perhaps it has something to do, with getting
beyond the stage where we try to dictate to others,
what they should believe, and lording
our particular religious choice(s) ... over others. That - will
never work. Surely we know this by now ....
andrew
