Serious doubts about the ethics of personal salvation

[Cage]

I'm kinda at a crossroads, and don't know which way to go. On one hand, I desparately want salvation, but on the other, I fear it may be wrong.

I know it sounds silly, but let me finish...

Ask a child, any child, which is right: To let someone else be punished for what you did, or to accept responsibility, and suffer your own consequenses?

You see, this is my delima, I can't bear the thought of letting Jesus pay for my sins, when I myself should be held accountable. I somehow view it as bieng wrong, and I'm unsure as to how God views such a practice. It's more about principal than anything else, I think? What's done is done, but even in mind, I find it irresponsible, and unjust, and wrong.

I have a son, and if he were punished for something someone else did, I would be very angry. Why would it be any different for God? Wouldn't it be better for me to accept responsibility for my own actions, instead of allowing another to bear the burden that is rightfully my own?

I know that the penalty for sin is death, but would God NOT look favorably on my decision to be responsible? (To willingly die for Jesus' name sake) In my mind, this would be more honorable. I love Jesus, and I think it is unjust for him suffer for my sins, if only in mind, and principal. (Jesus deserves better, imo.)

Jesus said to: "Pick up your cross, and follow me"; Is he hinting that 'I' should do as he did, and allow myself to be punished for my own sin debt? He was raised up after taking sin upon himself (At which point he was no longer 'perfect' being made sin for us, right?) Why wouldn't I be raised also?

Would God turn me away for wanting/trying to do what I think is right?

I'm very confused, and it's starting to affect my peace. I want to do the thing which is right. I love very deeply, and this 'love' has nearly convicted me to pay for my own. I will never deny Jesus, but I might deny him my sins...

~Cage~

 

[Quahom1]

I'm kinda at a crossroads, and don't know which way to go. On one hand, I desparately want salvation, but on the other, I fear it may be wrong.

I know it sounds silly, but let me finish...

Ask a child, any child, which is right: To let someone else be punished for what you did, or to accept responsibility, and suffer your own consequenses?

You see, this is my delima, I can't bear the thought of letting Jesus pay for my sins, when I myself should be held accountable. I somehow view it as bieng wrong, and I'm unsure as to how God views such a practice. It's more about principal than anything else, I think? What's done is done, but even in mind, I find it irresponsible, and unjust, and wrong.

I have a son, and if he were punished for something someone else did, I would be very angry. Why would it be any different for God? Wouldn't it be better for me to accept responsibility for my own actions, instead of allowing another to bear the burden that is rightfully my own?

I know that the penalty for sin is death, but would God NOT look favorably on my decision to be responsible? (To willingly die for Jesus' name sake) In my mind, this would be more honorable. I love Jesus, and I think it is unjust for him suffer for my sins, if only in mind, and principal. (Jesus deserves better, imo.)

Jesus said to: "Pick up your cross, and follow me"; Is he hinting that 'I' should do as he did, and allow myself to be punished for my own sin debt? He was raised up after taking sin upon himself (At which point he was no longer 'perfect' being made sin for us, right?) Why wouldn't I be raised also?

Would God turn me away for wanting/trying to do what I think is right?

I'm very confused, and it's starting to affect my peace. I want to do the thing which is right. I love very deeply, and this 'love' has nearly convicted me to pay for my own. I will never deny Jesus, but I might deny him my sins...

~Cage~

Welcome to CR

I'd like to ask you a question or two. It sounds like you have a great love for your child. If he were to get into trouble, and you had the means to pay a ransom, to keep him from suffering the terrible punishment he would otherwise receive, wouldn't you glady pay that ransom for the life of your son?

Or consider it this way. If you didn't know how to swim, but insisted in messing around a pond and fell in and was drowning, then someone threw you a rope, would you not grab for that rope with all of your might?

Salvation is kind of like that. We don't deserve it, we can't earn it, but we are apparently loved by a God who wants to offer it and dearly hopes we accept the "gift" He is giving.

When we love someone, we place great value upon that person, regardless of the mistakes they've made. We want them with us, and would do just about anything possible to keep them whole and safe and loved.

God is like that with us.

v/r

Q

 

[Cage]

Welcome to CR

I'd like to ask you a question or two. It sounds like you have a great love for your child. If he were to get into trouble, and you had the means to pay a ransom, to keep him from suffering the terrible punishment he would otherwise receive, wouldn't you glady pay that ransom for the life of your son?

I certainly would, but isn't God suppose to be a just God? Jesus paying, suffering, and dying for my sins doesn't seem 'just' to me. If God is truly just, then wouldn't it be 'nescessary' for 'me' to be held accountable? And likewise, wouldn't it be unjust for Jesus to pay for my mistakes?

Or consider it this way. If you didn't know how to swim, but insisted in messing around a pond and fell in and was drowning, then someone threw you a rope, would you not grab for that rope with all of your might?

I would, but that scenario doesn't involve someone else 'suffering', and dying to save me. Although, I would gladly die for my son if he were drowning.

Salvation is kind of like that. We don't deserve it, we can't earn it, but we are apparently loved by a God who wants to offer it and dearly hopes we accept the "gift" He is giving

So I am to put ethics aside, and accept a gift, that by doing so, I in essence betray what I know in my heart to be right?

When we love someone, we place great value upon that person, regardless of the mistakes they've made. We want them with us, and would do just about anything possible to keep them whole and safe and loved.

God is like that with us.

I understand this, but it doesn't change the reality of my delimma. I would certainly save my sons life, but I would also expect him to take responsibility for his actions. This is how we learn, and this is how we build character. Couldn't God love me w/o me having to make, what I view to be, an unethical move? Couldn't he just put me on the cross, let me die in my sins, and still accept me?

Why is it nescessary for Jesus to pay for what I've done? Why can't I do it myself? I desparately want to accept the 'gift' of salvation, but deep within, I fear it is wrong for me to do so. I don't fear much, not even death, but I do fear being wrong, when it comes to what God expects from me.

Wouldn't the fact, that 'I' find letting another be punished for what I've done, be enough to make it wrong for 'me'?

Why would God turn me away, for wanting to do, what I feel in my heart to be right?

Even further, what does Jesus mean when he says this:

-- Living Bible
Matthew 10:38 If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine

Matthew 10:39 ``If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give it up for me, you will save it.

Oddly enough, these two versus are the ones that I find comforting, when I consider taking up 'my' cross, and dying in my sins, for Jesus' sake.

Do you understand where I am now?

 

[Quahom1]

I certainly would, but isn't God suppose to be a just God? Jesus paying, suffering, and dying for my sins doesn't seem 'just' to me. If God is truly just, then wouldn't it be 'nescessary' for 'me' to be held accountable? And likewise, wouldn't it be unjust for Jesus to pay for my mistakes?


I would, but that scenario doesn't involve someone else 'suffering', and dying to save me. Although, I would gladly die for my son if he were drowning.



So I am to put ethics aside, and accept a gift, that by doing so, I in essence betray what I know in my heart to be right?



I understand this, but it doesn't change the reality of my delimma. I would certainly save my sons life, but I would also expect him to take responsibility for his actions. This is how we learn, and this is how we build character. Couldn't God love me w/o me having to make, what I view to be, an unethical move? Couldn't he just put me on the cross, let me die in my sins, and still accept me?

Why is it nescessary for Jesus to pay for what I've done? Why can't I do it myself? I desparately want to accept the 'gift' of salvation, but deep within, I fear it is wrong for me to do so. I don't fear much, not even death, but I do fear being wrong, when it comes to what God expects from me.

Wouldn't the fact, that 'I' find letting another be punished for what I've done, be enough to make it wrong for 'me'?

Why would God turn me away, for wanting to do, what I feel in my heart to be right?

Even further, what does Jesus mean when he says this:

-- Living Bible
Matthew 10:38 If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine

Matthew 10:39 ``If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give it up for me, you will save it.

Oddly enough, these two versus are the ones that I find comforting, when I consider taking up 'my' cross, and dying in my sins, for Jesus' sake.

Do you understand where I am now?

Justice without mercy, is no justice at all. That would show a total lack of compassion. If that were the case, then computers would be better judges over the affairs of men, than men. God, being the ultimate judge is not a computer.

As far as taking up one's cross, did not Jesus also state, "...for my burden is light...)? If we cling to our own lives, is that not the ultimate in selfcentered ness? Like the servant who had but one talent, and therefore hid it away, rather than investing it. Life is like riches, we only gain from it if we invest it in others.

I want to tell you something my Dad told me, once when I was particularly hard on myself:

"God designed man in such a way, that he can not kick himself in the ass too hard, nor pat himself on the back too easily...go on try it, see how far you get."

Forgiving self, is the hardest thing a man can do, my friend...but we must if we wish to be able to focus on others.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

 

[Thomas]

Hi Cage -

Well, joy to you this Easter Morning! and joy to me for you bring the chance to repeat here something from the homily delivered at the Easter Vigil I attended last night!

By way of answer to your question, or at least a pointer, consider this, from John's Gospel (Ch 21). Jesus is risen, Mary has spoken to Him, the disciples and others have seen Him, Thomas notably. Then, a few days later, Peter says, "I'm going a fishing."
Why, in heaven's name? Did he seriously believe that Jesus Christ, crucified and risen, would change nothing? That he would live out his days as a fisherman? That the world would go on, just as before?

(Or maybe he was fulfilling the Zen proverb, 'Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water; after enlightenment, chop wood, carry water'?)

No. Peter had a heavy heart ... Peter had denied his Christ three times, exactly as he had been told he would, the issue had not been resolved (I believe the buzzword is 'closure') and the burden lay heavy upon him. He was not worthy, he had abandoned Christ, and now Christ would abandon him. It was only just. He deserved nothing more. An eye for an eye.

They fish all night, to no avail. In the dawn's yellow light, they see a man standing on the shore, who calls across, as anyone might, "Caught anything?"

I'd love to know what Peter was muttering to himself as he hauled in the empty net. I bet his countenance was as black as the night just past.

So this guy says, "Cast your net on the right hand side."

Yeah, right. We've been here all night, and not a thing, and then we have to listen to advice from some ... keep it up, pal! ... But what the heck, the others are cold, hungry and miserable, and loathe to give up, to return empty-handed. They've nothing to lose, so in goes the net, and the next thing they've got such a catch the boat's in danger of caspsizing!

In all the flurry, the shouting and laughing, the cold and hunger forgotten, the disciples sloshing about whooping and calling, John stands up, lifts a hand to his forehead and squints towards the shore and says, very quietly, under his breath, "It is the Lord."

Peter straightens as if struck by lightning. What should he do? Hide? Grab an armful of weights and jump overboard? No, he cannot help himself. Tucks up his coat and straight over the side, swimming hard and fast for the shore. The disciples give up trying to land the catch, and simply hang on to the net as they run the boat ashore.

Jesus is there, a fire burning, bread warming, fish cooking.

He looks at Peter and smiles, one of his smiles that melts the marrow of your bones, that fills your heart with a joy fit to bust. "Come," He says, laughing while Peter, dripping wet, blowing like an ox, wipes the snot from his nose. "Sit with me. Eat."

They squat by the fire. The wood spits, the fish sizzles. Distant voices calling for Peter, the strongest of their band, to give them a hand. This is the moment, Peter catches his breath, opens his mouth to say something, but as he does Christ offers him a piece of fish on a fist of bread.

"Look," He says, pointing to the sun, breaking over the horizon in the east, "It's a new day."

It's a new day, Cage - this day especially - it's a new day and a 'New Song', by his Resurrection Christ has made the world anew, but we will never let the light of that New Dawn fill our hearts if we cling on to the shadows of the old, living in the past is a denial of life itself ...

+++

Sin becomes our excuse Cage, it becomes the reason to not let go ...

Thomas

 

[Cage]

Justice without mercy, is no justice at all. That would show a total lack of compassion. If that were the case, then computers would be better judges over the affairs of men, than men. God, being the ultimate judge is not a computer.

As far as taking up one's cross, did not Jesus also state, "...for my burden is light...)? If we cling to our own lives, is that not the ultimate in selfcentered ness? Like the servant who had but one talent, and therefore hid it away, rather than investing it. Life is like riches, we only gain from it if we invest it in others.

I want to tell you something my Dad told me, once when I was particularly hard on myself:

"God designed man in such a way, that he can not kick himself in the ass too hard, nor pat himself on the back too easily...go on try it, see how far you get."

Forgiving self, is the hardest thing a man can do, my friend...but we must if we wish to be able to focus on others.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

Where was the mercy, and compassion for Jesus? This is what I find 'unjust', he was punished while being sinless, why are we not, when we can be as evil as they come? Do you really think justice was served on the cross?

I think Jesus' 'burden' was about living the way he lived, loving God, loving your neighbor, and being a responsible person. Jesus set the ultimate example to follow, imo. He shows perfectly what it means to love, and what that love entails.

My burdens are different than his. (I'm a sinner, and they are my own) I have an obligation, and I should be held accountable for my actions. Jesus proved to me that even a sinless man must face death, and be held accountable in this kingdom. I see no reason to believe I would be any different...

Do you think that I cling to my life? I would die to keep Jesus from suffering what is rightfuly mine to pay for. I think the talants you mentioned are representing love, you can love and hide it away, or you invest that love in others, and increase what you recieve back.

I'll agree that it is difficult to forgive ones self, but I make effort daily to do just that.

You know...

I want mercy, but at what price am I willing to attain it? Certainly not at someone elses expence! That would be unfair, and almost criminal for me to allow that, as I personaly view it as being an unethical practice.

I'm not saying it's wrong for everyone; I'm just saying that it may be wrong for me...

Much love,

 

[Cage]

Hi Cage -

It's a new day, Cage - this day especially - it's a new day and a 'New Song', by his Resurrection Christ has made the world anew, but we will never let the light of that New Dawn fill our hearts if we cling on to the shadows of the old, living in the past is a denial of life itself ...

+++

Sin becomes our excuse Cage, it becomes the reason to not let go ...

Thomas

I liked that entire post, Thomas, but only quoted the last for sake of space.

What am I to let go of, Thomas? I try to live as Jesus would have desired, and I Love him, and I love my neighbors. I just have hangups about shifting my weight on him to pay for...

Surely you see my point? How can I be wrong for wanting to take up my own cross, and pay for my own sins? How can I be wrong for following Jesus even unto the cross, and dying in sin myself?

The ressurection gives me hope that I too might be accepted, but I have no guarantees...Only hope, and faith that God will see me, and accept me as I am.

~Cage~

 

[taijasi]

Cage,

I'm with you 100% on this, and I admire your courage, and your conscience, for seeing it this way.

Responsibility seems to me to be a lifelong lesson in the learning ... as is also forgiveness (especially where oneself is involved).

Peace,

andrew

 

[path_of_one]

To be honest with you, I struggle with this as well. I love Jesus and I personally experience Him. He is my Savior, my Lord, and the Light to which I turn. He is my Druid, my teacher, my friend. At times I just weep knowing what He went through, knowing His perfect, sinless life was ended by humankind's cruelty.

But...
Whether or not I accept that He took my sins, He did.

That is... it is not my choice whether or not God sent His beloved Son to this world, to suffer and to die, to offer the salvation and love of God to everyone. That was God's choice, and whether or not I understand it really doesn't matter.

What is in my power to accept or decline is giving gratitude and thanksgiving to God and Christ for what has already been done. What is my choice is what to do with the gift I have been given. Will I pour out myself enough that the Spirit fills me up? Will I die enough to myself that Christ dwells in me? Am I willing to daily pick up my cross- all my little burdens and problems and challenges, all the things God calls me to do and be- and cry out to Christ to help give me the strength to carry it faithfully?

In my perspective- whether or not I choose to acknowledge Christ as my Savior, whether or not I choose to thank God for His precious gift of grace- it was given anyway.

I am not conservative in my beliefs; I will readily admit that. I do not believe in original sin. I don't believe that God is unable or unwilling to forgive us if we are faithful to Him, and that Christ had to be sacrificed as the Jews sacrificed lambs, though that is the metaphor of the Gospel story, since that is the people who were chosen as the ancestors of the Christ. I do not believe that all my Pagan ancestors, born before Jesus, automatically went to Hell since they didn't have Him yet.

I do believe that Jesus was necessary to unite the Divine and humanity. I believe His life and death, His overcoming of humanity's sin, God's choice to send Him and Christ's choice to obey God in the face of extreme suffering (not just of the torture and death he endured, but the separation from God as He took on all the wrongdoing of humanity for all time)-- this transcended time and place. It was an event, in my opinion, that allowed all those who ever preceded Christ and all those who would come after Him to be forgiven, to perceive the absolute goodness and love of God, and to have the perfect model of how to embrace the Divine and forgive and love ourselves and each other. Jesus' life and death are magical. Humanity chose to separate itself from the Divine, and Christ offers the path back to unity once more. Because Christ has ever existed, and will ever exist, the Grace of God extended through Jesus Christ has been forever extended to all people everywhere in every time.

In my perspective, you have no choice whether or not to shift your sins to Christ. Jesus Christ already decided for you. He took them (and all of our sins) willingly. What we choose is whether or not we accept this and thank Him for it.

 

[Quahom1]

Where was the mercy, and compassion for Jesus? This is what I find 'unjust', he was punished while being sinless, why are we not, when we can be as evil as they come? Do you really think justice was served on the cross?

I think Jesus' 'burden' was about living the way he lived, loving God, loving your neighbor, and being a responsible person. Jesus set the ultimate example to follow, imo. He shows perfectly what it means to love, and what that love entails.

My burdens are different than his. (I'm a sinner, and they are my own) I have an obligation, and I should be held accountable for my actions. Jesus proved to me that even a sinless man must face death, and be held accountable in this kingdom. I see no reason to believe I would be any different...

Do you think that I cling to my life? I would die to keep Jesus from suffering what is rightfuly mine to pay for. I think the talants you mentioned are representing love, you can love and hide it away, or you invest that love in others, and increase what you recieve back.

I'll agree that it is difficult to forgive ones self, but I make effort daily to do just that.

You know...

I want mercy, but at what price am I willing to attain it? Certainly not at someone elses expence! That would be unfair, and almost criminal for me to allow that, as I personaly view it as being an unethical practice.

I'm not saying it's wrong for everyone; I'm just saying that it may be wrong for me...

Much love,

You just reminded me of a wonderful point about Jesus. Before anything happened, remember Jesus went before the Father in the Garden and prayed all night. He was terrified of what was about to happen (and I don't think it was death that frightened Him, but rather what He would have to assumed on our behalf). In any event, Jesus didn't ask us for our opinion, He spoke directly with the Father, and asked if it were possible, to let this cup pass from Him. I believe He was hoping for another way or option. However, when all was said and done, Jesus told the Father, "not my will but Thy will be done." And it was settled between Father and Son, for us and our salvation...and we Humans were given no say in the matter.

As with the devil in the desert, Jesus knew He could have or do or be anything He wished. As well while on the Cross, He could have come down anytime He wished. There would have been none to stop Him. Instead, Jesus chose "us". That is He chose to follow His Father's will (freely chose), to save man.

Now, He simply offers His gift to us. You know, the blood of the lamb makes our soiled garments purest white (or something like that).

my thoughts

v/r

Q

 

[Cage]

In my perspective, you have no choice whether or not to shift your sins to Christ. Jesus Christ already decided for you. He took them (and all of our sins) willingly. What we choose is whether or not we accept this and thank Him for it.

In my mind, it is more about the principal behind it. Like I said, what is done is done, but that doesn't change how I personaly feel about betraying what I view to be ethical. I sin all the time, but this is about the son of God! I think our intentions are worth much, and if I intended to let Jesus be punished, suffer, and die for what I did, (If only in mind) i will have fallen short of doing what is right in my own mind. (It is a very personal matter)

I don't want his death to be in vain, but I can't help what convicts me. I thank Jesus for showing me what it means to love, and showing me the greatest sacrifice of all, (Ones self) not for taking my sins away. How would I explain myself, if I were to accept his gift of salvation, after believing in my heart that it was wrong to do so?

I may be screwed either way?

At least, if I do things my way, I will still have a good conscience in the end...

~Cage~

 

[Cage]

You just reminded me of a wonderful point about Jesus. Before anything happened, remember Jesus went before the Father in the Garden and prayed all night. He was terrified of what was about to happen (and I don't think it was death that frightened Him, but rather what He would have to assumed on our behalf). In any event, Jesus didn't ask us for our opinion, He spoke directly with the Father, and asked if it were possible, to let this cup pass from Him. I believe He was hoping for another way or option. However, when all was said and done, Jesus told the Father, "not my will but Thy will be done." And it was settled between Father and Son, for us and our salvation...and we Humans were given no say in the matter.

So, in order to be accepted by God, I am forced to bretray what I view to be right in my heart? I know that I am focusing on one thing, but it is this one thing that mostly keeps me from accepting this gift.

As with the devil in the desert, Jesus knew He could have or do or be anything He wished. As well while on the Cross, He could have come down anytime He wished. There would have been none to stop Him. Instead, Jesus chose "us". That is He chose to follow His Father's will (freely chose), to save man.

Now, He simply offers His gift to us. You know, the blood of the lamb makes our soiled garments purest white (or something like that).

my thoughts

v/r

Q

Salvation is a nice thought, (I want to be accepted) but it goes against what I believe in my heart.

I may be stuck!

~Cage~

 

[Quahom1]

So, in order to be accepted by God, I am forced to bretray what I view to be right in my heart? I know that I am focusing on one thing, but it is this one thing that mostly keeps me from accepting this gift.



Salvation is a nice thought, (I want to be accepted) but it goes against what I believe in my heart.

I may be stuck!

~Cage~

Well you are absolutely correct in that it does come down to what choices one can live with and can't. And no one can make those choices for us.

v/r

Q

 

[taijasi]

At least, if I do things my way, I will still have a good conscience in the end...

~Cage~

You said it! And as the great Bard of Avon put it, To Thine own Self be true.

andrew

 

[path_of_one]

You said it! And as the great Bard of Avon put it, To Thine own Self be true.

andrew

I believe each person who seeks God's will for themselves, will find it.

Salvation is not a trick question. If I allow myself to become wrapped up in my thoughts, my reasoning and logic, various doctrines and trying to sort through it all-- I end up throwing my hands up in the air in frustration and anxiety. But if I pour out myself, and wait faithfully before God, seeking Him/Her/It, if I strive to forgive others and myself and to love, if I become as a child in my faith, it is then that I find my peace and joy in God, and the cloudiness of my thoughts roll back in the face of God's pure light. I realize I don't have to have it all figured out. I just have to work towards maintaining my relationship with God, and all is well; I come before God, and I ask to be, each day, just a little further along the path toward being a vessel for Him, and in His answer, I am saved.

One of the ladies in my Bible study says that when we die, she doesn't believe we are given a multiple choice test about evolution and creation, if Jonah was really in a whale for three days, and all that. We are simply asked what we have done with God's Son. What we have done with Christ- to me, not just what we believe about Him, but what have we done with Him? With Him in our hearts, our own spirits? With Him as our teacher, leading us by the hand? With Him next to us, in the eyes of all we meet?

I understand what you are saying, Andrew (I think). But I propose, that we are not meant to be true to ourselves. Rather, we are meant to recognize the limitations of "self" and the boundlessness of Self- of the Divine. We are meant to learn how to die to "self" and embrace Self, as if we are a cup, ever full of spirit, and the more we pour out our limited human selves, our self-centered thoughts and worries and actions, the more God is able to fill us with His unlimited Self, His thoughts and plans and actions. We thus are transformed into vessels of the living Christ, both being His hands and eyes and voice to a world that so desperately needs love, and also recognizing that in every human being is Christ- the opportunity to serve our Lord as He served us.

Indeed, I do not think accepting the gift of Christ's grace is at all eschewing responsibility. To accept it fully is to realize the extent to which God loves, and the extent to which we are called to love. "No greater love than this, than one lays down one's life for his friends." To accept Christ serving me, taking my sins upon Himself so that I may be free and gain union with God, is to also accept that I, in turn, am called to serve others- not in self-centered interest of my own deeds, or even because I like people and wish them well. But rather, because we are not each responsible for ourselves. We are called to be focused on God and others, not ourselves. We are each of us responsible for everyone, which is why we are called to spread the Good News and follow Christ rather than simply enjoying our own salvation. Salvation without other-centeredness is not salvation at all. And if one is other-centered, the question of who did what, who pays for what, is irrelevant. This is very difficult for me to put into words... hopefully you will get some idea of what I am saying...

Salvation, I guess, is not a personal issue at all for me. In the example and mystery of Christ, I find that salvation is about everyone. It is an active relationship between God and us, and between humans and the earth, and amongst humans. In claiming Christ as Savior and accepting the gift God gave me, I am called to a much greater responsibility than if I simply refused the gift and chose to pay for my own sins. Why? In accepting the gift, I also accept that I am called to act in a like manner to everyone else- to offer grace, to be focused on the other, to be part of the Body of Christ- Christ manifest during His physical absence from earth. It is not that strings come attached to the gift, but rather that accepting the gift will necessarily bring about changes in my spirit, if I am faithful in my path toward God. If each claims responsibility only for him/herself, there is still an ego-centeredness there. In giving up the self comes both freedom and responsibility.

I hope that was sort of clear... sorry it is so wordy. I have a difficult time expressing some of the spiritual things I sense/feel at times, but I think this is an important issue.

Peace to you,
Path

 

[taijasi]

Path,

I do agree with most of what you've said. In fact, I find that you've summarized very well, even eloquently, what has always struck me as the true heart (purpose, raison d'etre, essence) of Christianity. I do not mean to be trite or a smartass when I say that I was thinking of this when I posted the Shakespeare quote. I capitalized the `S' in Self for that reason ... so that it might be regarded as more than just, act according to one's conscience in the more common use and understanding of that word.

It is my belief that if the dictates of conscience are followed consistently and persistenly, they will definitely lead us beyond ego-centeredness and the obsession with our own personal salvation (since indeed, as has been said, "He who seeks his life will lose it; and he who loses his life for my sake will find it."). The reason for this, in simple terms, is that it is the Christ Within Whom and Which, if called upon, will guide us - and unfailingly. Only our (in)ability to put into effect these dictates of conscience (which entail one of the many ways in which Christ speaks to us) ... is in question.

Yet, even despite all that has been said, I think the point remains, unless I have misunderstood the true nature of Cage's dilemma, that we would do well to ask ourself, could it really be true that the death of another - under any circumstance, and regardless of the spiritual standing or Divinity of that being - could this be the cause of our Joy, our Redemption, and indeed, a vital part of the fulfilment of the very Purpose for our existence upon this planet?

As has been said, and said well, that Purpose is intimately bound up in the lives and the well-being of others ... and as part of our ongoing responsibility to them, I for one hold it in highest honor and a sign of definite spiritual maturity to own one's karma. It is not easy, and it is not meant to be. Yet if such willingness of responsibility is maintained religiously (this being the proper word, I do believe), there is no end to what may be attained ... as we become co-creators with God, to use the popular term.

Perhaps it is appropriate to ask the question of how necessary it is to focus on the gift of personal salvation (through Christed Jesus), if one is to call oneself Christian? I say this, because there are many, many basic tenets of the Christian Faith, and certainly our true character (our mettle and our integrity) is largely defined/determined by our actions. If this is so, could one respond to the mandate of the Buddha, Work out thy own Salvation, with diligence, yet in all other aspects of one's faith remain Christian, and still be Christian? Who among us is so certain where the "slippery slope" begins, the sliding down of which disqualifies one for designation as a Christian?

Oh bother, perhaps this is why I am perfectly content to be a Liberal Catholic, if Christian at all!

Love and Light,

andrew

 

[Dondi]

We seem to be stuck in the idea of atoning for one's sins. The fact is that while we should be responsible to God in our conduct, especially in fulfilling the Law of Love (i.e. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength and Love our neighbor as yourself), we will never be able to accomplish this perfectly, at least not in this life. Our bodies are decaying and we will never be perfect until we die. (Read I Cor 15 about the seed).

I think one thing that we are overlooking in all this talking about Christ's death in that the Gospel doesn't stop there. Rather we ought to be discussing Christ's Resurrection. The sinless life He lived was confirmed in the Resurrection. In our state, no matter how good we will try to be, our sins will prevent our resurrection. Because the wages of sin is death. How are we to atone for our own sin? We can't? We are tainted. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. If God's standard is perfection, we're doomed. The only way that we can satify God's standard of perfection is for the sinless to bear our sins so that in the eyes of God, we are justified as sinless. Then and only then can we be resurrected to new life. That is the whole purpose of grace.

Yes, we need to be responsible to God and live righteously. And we need to be concerned for our sins, but only in the aspect of how it is affecting our relationship with God and our neighbor. We are going to fail sometimes in the fact that we don't love perfectly. Hopefully, we progress toward that end. But in the times that we don't, we have a catchall for sins to put us back to the right path, and His Name is Jesus. Lest we depair in our sins, and pity ourselves silly, Cage, which only exaperates the matter. We sink in sorrow for our sins, yes, that is the Holy Spirit conviction, but He operates there so that you may know His forgiveness when you repent and give the sin back to Him. The grace God allows operates so that we can move forward in our relationship with God and each other. Your sanctification is a process, but your justification is paid for by Christ. It's all about learning to love.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Cage -

We must distinguish between sin as a wound carried by a fallen nature,
and sin as personal fault.

The Redemptive Sacrifice was not about personal salvation, but about collective deliverance, it tore assunder the veil that occluded the imprint of the Divine Image within the soul, a vision lost when Adam turned away from God to pursue his own egoic desire.

It reconstituted a fallen human nature in the image and likeness of its creator.

But it did not turn back the clock - it did not replay the world as if our primordial parents never fell - and the Risen Christ still bears the Wounds by which we were healed.

And we still bear the propensity to sin, the Cross does not negate sin as such, the primordial cause of sin still remains, and our sins are still founded in the sin of Adam, we choose our will rather than God's will - our good rather than His good.

Over the centuries we have given the theme infinite variation and possibility - but at root it's all one and the same sin - "not Thy will but my will be done" - it is an inversion of Truth, Goodness and Beauty - a rejection of Reality.

So we are still responsible and culpable for our own sin.

The Gospel, as Dondi has just posted, is the key to a life in Christ that transcends the good, the virtuous, the humanitarian, in fact all the human norms of what makes a 'good person'.

Similarly, it takes courage, the courage to know that we are not perfect, we are far from it, and we will most probably err, but that we are called to a Union that would be impossible were it not for the love of God who says 'I will not hold fault against those with a contrtite heart'.

The heart sorrows, but we must ensure that that sorrow does not turn into self-pity, doubt, fear, recrimination. God does not hold our fault against us, we must ensure we do not hold our failings against Him.

The way is broad, but the gate is indeed narrow.

Thomas

 

[Cage]

I was thinking last night about where I am, and where I might stand with God. I've spoken of Love, and how I couldn't bear laying my sins upon Jesus to pay for, then I imagined that it wasn't wrong to allow him to pay for my salvation, and I eagerly accepted w/o hesitation.

This leads me to question myself, and if I Love at all, because now I'm afraid the entire reason for me not placing the burden on him is out of Fear. (I don't want to be wrong) I've also said that I don't fear many things, well... I'm not perfect, nor can I ever be. I think of self, but I'm willing to give myself for what is right, (Out of fear) but not 'entirely' out of Love. (At least in this case)

I know if I accepted what Jesus did, I would feel a greater Love for him, but my conscience leads me away from doing this. I'm reminded of the Golden rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Then, I feel alright again, as I would never want to be punished for what someone else did. But, Jesus gave himself 'willingly' (Well,at least for God) so I might live, and be saved. (Perhaps from myself) Still, I deny his efforts, and perhaps deny God's will for me? Then again, what if I'm right, then go against what is in my heart? I will have sucsessfuly betrayed God, myself, and Jesus by doing so.

They say that Love conquers fear, and I'm still fearful. Where is this Love that alludes me? How do I attain it, and what price am I willing to pay?

I'm willing to accept Jesus in many ways, ways that do not counter my convictions. I do Love him, but not like I should. I certainly respect him, but I'm afraid I do him dishonor when I refuse his gift?

I'm reminded of Cain and Abel when God honored Abels sacrifice, and not Cains. Even so, God told Cain that if he did well, he would also be accepted, and his countenence risen. Instead, Cain rose up against his brother and killed him.

But, I have Love for those that are different than myself, and I wish only the best for them...Those who know in thier hearts that they are accepted by God. (I'm not Jealous, or angry)

If I do well, and stay true to what I believe is right, do you think God will also accept me like he would have Cain if he did well? This may very well be my only way out...

Maybe, I'm hanging on to a dream?

Fear and Loathing,

~Cage~

 

[Dondi]

I was thinking last night about where I am, and where I might stand with God. I've spoken of Love, and how I couldn't bear laying my sins upon Jesus to pay for, then I imagined that it wasn't wrong to allow him to pay for my salvation, and I eagerly accepted w/o hesitation.

A good step.

This leads me to question myself, and if I Love at all, because now I'm afraid the entire reason for me not placing the burden on him is out of Fear. (I don't want to be wrong) I've also said that I don't fear many things, well... I'm not perfect, nor can I ever be. I think of self, but I'm willing to give myself for what is right, (Out of fear) but not 'entirely' out of Love. (At least in this case)

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." - I John 4:18

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." - Romans 8:15

Here's your problem. When you come to Christ for salvation, you must understand that He regenerates you heart and fills your with the Spirit of God into His Kingdom. You become born-again of the Spirit. You become adopted into His Family.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" - John 1:12

Surely, before we come to Christ for salvation, we are apart from God, and we surely need to fear God because our sin seprates us from God and we are our own enemies toward God.

But once we become sons and daughters of God, He is our Father. We no longer need to fear Him, but can freely love Him with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. And learn to love others as our self. God's Holy Spirit in us will enable us to love as He wants.

I know if I accepted what Jesus did, I would feel a greater Love for him, but my conscience leads me away from doing this. I'm reminded of the Golden rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Indeed, loving others is the same as loving Him. Hear what Jesus said:

"....Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto Me." - Matthew 25:40

Our duty to God is to fullfil the royal law:

"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:" - James 2:8

Then, I feel alright again, as I would never want to be punished for what someone else did. But, Jesus gave himself 'willingly' (Well,at least for God) so I might live, and be saved. (Perhaps from myself) Still, I deny his efforts, and perhaps deny God's will for me? Then again, what if I'm right, then go against what is in my heart? I will have sucsessfuly betrayed God, myself, and Jesus by doing so.

God's will is to believe in His Son:

"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent." - John 6:28-29

You need to stop believing on your own whims and believe on the promises and commandments of God for your life.

They say that Love conquers fear, and I'm still fearful. Where is this Love that alludes me? How do I attain it, and what price am I willing to pay?

I'm willing to accept Jesus in many ways, ways that do not counter my convictions. I do Love him, but not like I should. I certainly respect him, but I'm afraid I do him dishonor when I refuse his gift?

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." - 2 Timothy 1:7

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." - John 14:21

Pay God by giving you life to him, believe in what He did for you on the Cross, and obey His commandments. That is how you will honor God.

I'm reminded of Cain and Abel when God honored Abels sacrifice, and not Cains. Even so, God told Cain that if he did well, he would also be accepted, and his countenence risen. Instead, Cain rose up against his brother and killed him.

But, I have Love for those that are different than myself, and I wish only the best for them...Those who know in thier hearts that they are accepted by God. (I'm not Jealous, or angry)

If I do well, and stay true to what I believe is right, do you think God will also accept me like he would have Cain if he did well? This may very well be my only way out...

Cain's problem is that he didn't mix his offering with faith.

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh." - Hebrews 11:4

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it." - Hebrew 4:2

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." - Acts 16:30-31

Maybe, I'm hanging on to a dream?

Fear and Loathing,

~Cage~

Just step out in fath, my friend. Let God love you in the manner He has specified.