Gifts of the Spirit

cavalier

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I was brought up to be skeptical of those who claimed to speak in tongues or prophesy. While it was possible, much more probably it was someone getting carried away or, much more dangerously, it was the work of the Devil. I have long since shaken off much of my upbringing, but my skepticism of these people has, because it just makes sense to me, stayed.

A few years ago a couple of things happened to make me think about my views:

1. I was at a young people’s morning prayer meeting. It started out fine but soon people started speaking in tongues. The number of voices and the noise grew, People began crying, laughing, shouting, rocking back and forth, wailing. Obviously my inexperience of this kind of thing played a part but it was genuinely un-nerving. I asked somebody later what they were talking about and he said he had no idea. I think I remember something in the Bible saying that if someone speaks in tongues either they or somebody present will be able to interpret.

2. I was out for dinner at the house of the pastor of a local revivalist church. Before I left he said he would pray for my journey home. After praying he looked at me and said, “You have a problem with your legs, a sporting problem, it is better now but will never be perfect.” What he said was completely true and there was no way he could have known. I have no idea what to think about that.

Do any of you practice, have experience of, or views on these Spiritual gifts?

Thanks
Andy
 
Prophecy is a gift of the Spirit. But the chief gifts of the Spirit, according to Paul, are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. (Galatians 5:22-23)
 
Jeannot said:
Prophecy is a gift of the Spirit. But the chief gifts of the Spirit, according to Paul, are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. (Galatians 5:22-23)

No, Jeannot, what you referring to is the Fruit of the Spirit in Galatian 5:22, not Gifts of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is the condition our hearts ought to be in when we are obedient to the will of God (John 14:21). The gifts of the Spirit are for ministering to one another. But you do raise a good point. These gifts should be operated in love, or it amounts to nothing (I Corinthians 13:1-3).

Gifts of the Spirit are listed in a number of places.

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." - I Corinthians 12:4-11


"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" - Ephesians 4:11-13

"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness." - Romans 12:4-8

We all have one or more of these gifts that God has given to us. And God expects us to use them, just as in the Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25:14-30.
 
IMHO, 1 Corinthians chapters 12 and 13 should be a single chapter.
1 Corinthians 13:8-13
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
 
Dondi said:
So what are you trying to say? That these gifts aren't available today?
No, I'm not saying that at all. The bible says that these gifts are temporary, while faith, hope, and love are not temporary.
 
In other words. one should possess the wisdom to determine what we experience in life to be transitory, and as a contrast of that, what we should consider to be eternal and supportive.

flow....:)
 
Hi Cavalier -

A useful measure of the appropriation of gifts/fruits/charisms is that they are always towards a purpose, and never for the benefit of the gifted alone.

Your point 1:
What purpose does this serve? Catholic exegetes acknowledge that Paul talks of speaking in tongues - but there is a difference between the unintelligible utterings of someone in an ecstatic state (which of itself should be questioned) and the Apostles' ability to converse in foreign tongues that amazed the listeners in Acts.

Further to this - Catholic theology holds that when one is 'inspired' one is still in control of one's faculties - ie one is fully conscious - as the authors of New Testament Scripture were inspired, but wrote as themselves, not in a trance, not automatic writing, or the like.

I only qualify NT because I think there is some aspect in the OT of the prophets being 'taken in ecstacy' as it were. St Paul speaks 'of a man' who is taken out of himself - it is believed to be himself - but the point is this was private, it wasn't a public display.

This is in marked contrast to the oracles of antiquity, who spoke from a trance, and again why Catholicism denounces all such practice - up to the vogue for spiritism and mediumship that took America by storm in the 18th/19th centuries.

So all in all Catholic Tradition does not, I believe, hold much store by accounts you detail...

Point 2:
Much more interesting - and as you tell it, no doubt real.

But the provenance of it is itself a huge debate. I once did a Tarot reading for a woman, and described her as a 'walled garden' and then described her character in continuation of the metaphor. Afterwards she told me that the house she bought was because it had a walled garden, which I had described, which was her delight.

Is this a spiritual gift? I'm not sure - I don't think so, it's more to do with empathy and the capacity to communicate with another at a different level.

I have always thought the tools of divination - cards, tea leaves, crystal balls, the gizards of a slaughtered chicken - occupy the 'left brain' and allow the 'right brain' to slip stuff into the commentary.
(This does not include psychometry, nor palmistry, etc.)

Having said that, in the case you mention I am not saying it is not a spiritual gift, simply that it does not have to be.

Derren Brown here in the UK does 'amazing' and 'magical' things that are staggering and unexplainable - but which he says are all to do with suggestion and careful reading of signs. I once watched a programme where he went in a supermarket with a stranger, wrote 3 things on a paper which was kept concealed, and then sent the person off to buy any three itsems. Lo! He was right.

Replaying the video, I saw how he had carefully and discreetly 'planted' the three things in the mind of the subject without ever mentioning them by name. On another occasion he planted an idea by taking a person on a taxi ride which passed a pub, part of the name of which later came out 'mysteriously' from nowhere. What amazed me was the subject wasn't even looking out of the cab window, but every seed was planted by a visual clue along a pre-arranged journey.

I think I recall the exchange of words counts for less than 10% of the exchange of information when 2 people converse...

Thomas
 
Very interesting topic, the part about psychic readings that is. A small aside, I heard once that people who come from alcoholic or abusive homes have a larger psychic gift as described above. It is honed as a survival instinct when they had to read all of the very subtle non-verbal cues from their parents to find out what kind of night it would be, and how to get through it.

I have only once witnessed a pyschic personality 'in action' in public. What I noticed is that before the show he mingled with the guests, saying hello and chit chatting, but without identifying himself. Guess I was not too surprised at his sucessful predictions, although the predictions he made for my friends were not close at all, or so vauge that the chances are that sometime in life a couple of those things will happen (a trip to a tropical location).

2c,
luna
 
Seems to me gifts come in all varieties as we have but one source for our supply...whether it is the air we breathe, the food we eat, the house we live in, the paycheck we cash...one source.

As is whether we are a carpenter, a pianist, a healer or a psychic....we've just decided to spend the time to hone the gift that was given...
 
cavalier said:
I was brought up to be skeptical of those who claimed to speak in tongues or prophesy. While it was possible, much more probably it was someone getting carried away or, much more dangerously, it was the work of the Devil. I have long since shaken off much of my upbringing, but my skepticism of these people has, because it just makes sense to me, stayed.

A few years ago a couple of things happened to make me think about my views:

1. I was at a young people’s morning prayer meeting. It started out fine but soon people started speaking in tongues. The number of voices and the noise grew, People began crying, laughing, shouting, rocking back and forth, wailing. Obviously my inexperience of this kind of thing played a part but it was genuinely un-nerving. I asked somebody later what they were talking about and he said he had no idea. I think I remember something in the Bible saying that if someone speaks in tongues either they or somebody present will be able to interpret.

2. I was out for dinner at the house of the pastor of a local revivalist church. Before I left he said he would pray for my journey home. After praying he looked at me and said, “You have a problem with your legs, a sporting problem, it is better now but will never be perfect.” What he said was completely true and there was no way he could have known. I have no idea what to think about that.

Do any of you practice, have experience of, or views on these Spiritual gifts?

Thanks
Andy

The gift of discernment, seems to be placed with me.
 
Dondi said:
Explain, please.

Since I was a child, I could read people. Simple enough. That could be considered empathy. However, when my parents started searching for more of God (and of course brought the family along), they experienced all kinds of people who supposedly had our best interests at heart in bringing us closer to God.

Sometimes I would be so entheusiastic about the simplest of people and their message, while the rest of the family was dis-appointed that there was not more vibrance and charisma. Other times the family was taken with a charismatic personality, while I hung back and simply observed. I would often vex my parents by announcing that "I would not give in to that man, or I wouldn't participate in that church, or group", and in the beginning, I took my punishments for disobeying my parents' will, for refusing to participate. But I did it enough that they began to realize I wasn't being rebellious, I simply saw something that I was very uncomfortable with (we aren't supposed to be uncomfortable with anything from God).

Time tells all, and patterns reveal truth. After awhile my parents would ask me what I thought of a particular situation or "parson", or group of people professing to be seeking God. Sometimes they took my thoughts to heart, and other times did not.

One day, my mother came home and was so excited about something she had learned. The Holy Spirit gives gifts to those open to God. She did some thinking and came to me, and said "You are a human lie detector". I was 14 at the time. I didn't know what to make of that, nor did I realize where she was going. She then asked, "How do you know when someone is not for God?" That I understood. When they say one thing but their heart is saying something else, was my response. (when they do not believe what they are telling others, God wise). "How do you know?" she pushed. I can see it, hear it, smell it, feel it, and sense it, was my reply.

So, life went on, and I grew up and started dealing with all kinds of people. But then, people started reacting to me as well...

I remember reporting aboard my first ship. I met the Master at Arms, who showed me my rack, and gave me my bedding. He simply said "it is going to be interesting having you aboard." I turned to him (several ranks higher than me), and replied "I know you, and you will reveal yourself to the rest of the crew." He spat "f*#K you", then hurried away. He was gone in less than a month. He did it to himself. Witnesses at the time wondered what I was talking about. I simply said I thought he had problems that would be made public shortly (they were). Then I got the nick name "strange agent". ;)

It has been like that ever since.

Once (in 1987), I was walking down the half street up from Alaskan Way South in Seattle, from the parking garage, toward the Federal Building and happened to pass a pleasant looking elderly woman. In passing she turned to me and her face became as ugly as sin (in her rage and anger). She spat "You don't belong here you "f'ng" bastard. Now I was in civilian clothes (with rather longer hair than is standard for military members due to my duties at the time, so that wasn't it), and I looked her in the eyes and stated, that I did belong here, but others do not. She spit on me yet I continued to walk away. Not five steps past her, and the lady called me. I turned, and the look of confusion on her face was priceless (and shocking). She asked me if I'd just said something to her. I said I had just wished her a good day. Clearly the personality I was now witnessing, was not the same personality I'd witnessed seconds before. She was confused, embarrassed and grateful all at the same time. She was the pleasant looking elderly woman she was supposed to be.

So I asked her, where she was coming from. She said "The Russian Tea Room". I asked if she had been read...in fact she had just been read. I said nothing, but noted that she had been opened up to gateways, we don't quite understand, and I think something hitched a ride with her.

This is not the first time, I've confronted "issues" with people who later don't understand what happened, but are very appolagetic about it. They remember something, but not all, and not clearly. But in every case they are uncomfortable with their own behavior.

Now, definition of discernment:

Discerning of spirits is the supernatural ability given by the Holy Spirit to perceive the source of a spiritual manifestation and determine whether it is of God (Acts 10:30-35), of the devil (Acts 16:16-18), of man (Acts 8:18-23), or of the world. It is not mind reading, psychic phenomena, or the ability to criticize and find fault.

Discerning of spirits must be done by the power of the Holy Spirit; He bears witness with our spirit when something is or is not of God. The gift of discerning of spirits is the supernatural power to detect the realm of the spirits and their activities. It implies the power of spiritual insight - the supernatural revelation of plans and purposes of the enemy and his forces. It is a gift which protects and guards your Christian life.



So, I am apparently an human lie detector, and apparently a spiritual discerner.

I have lots more stories, but they are for another day.

v/r

Q
 
I find this thread very interesting, esp. Quahom's stories. There is much about myself that I don't understand. Or rather, it's people's responses to me that I don't understand. They are usually very positive or very negative. After about "Thirty Years of Darkness" I've come to conclude that being me is okay but that for my own safety I need to be able to tell from a brief first encounter whether or not a person is safe for me.

I'm very strongly inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt and trust them even if I have negative vibes. I'm doing what I can to drill myself to TRUST THOSE VIBES.

The most confusing thing for me has been that when and if I did share about my vibes with someone (and I did a lot of this as a child and later) I would be roundly scolded for not giving a person a chance.

A good ten years ago I learned about Myers-Briggs personality type, which helped me begin to understand the basic differences between people. I'm a rather rare type, but my type is not as rare as the people who "speak my language." I've also focused on any spiritual differences (i.e. mediums, medicine people, shamans) I came across in my studies and personal reading. I conclude that I operate on a different level of awareness or perception or reality than most people do. I don't see it so much as a gift of the Spirit as having been born with a different set of talents or perceptions from most people.

When I was a fairly young child I tried one evening in the intimacy the dimly-lit family bedroom to share some of my inner experiences with my mother. She shrieked, "There is no such thing!" I knew she was wrong but I also knew then not to share this kind of thing with other people. All my life I've been charged with having a WILD imagination, sometimes positively but mostly negatively.

What I tend to pick up is people's true feelings about things. A major trick for me has been to learn (and I'll probably never learn it fully) when and when not to respond to these real feelings. In recent years it has happened repeatedly that people told me their deepest most personal experiences without me asking or probing for it. Somehow, they knew they could trust me. Sometimes they ask me not to talk to others about the things they told me but most of the time they just know they can trust me. And there is no way I could "broadcast their secrets" because I know that they handed me their heart and that is so precious that there is no way under the sun that I could violate that trust. So again, it's me identifying very deeply with another person.
 
Thanks for the replies

Thomas,
thanks for your views. Yeah, those Biblical references along with my scepticism made me disbelieve that thise people were speaking in tongues. The feeling I had I at the time just made me wonder if it was more than that, I hold that idea in check though due to the fact that I scare quite easily.
As to the second point, it's an interesting case you make, one which I'd never thought of but which makes a lot of sense.



Quahom
Your post really intrigued me. You wrote that your gift protects your Christian life, and I can see how this would be the case in terms of to listen to and who not. With regards to the story of the old lady however, has your gift ever put you in danger?


To Quahom and RubySera
Just curiosity, have you ever read anyone wrong?

Thanks
 
cavalier said:
...Quahom
Your post really intrigued me. You wrote that your gift protects your Christian life, and I can see how this would be the case in terms of to listen to and who not. With regards to the story of the old lady however, has your gift ever put you in danger?


To Quahom and RubySera
Just curiosity, have you ever read anyone wrong?

Thanks
Put me in danger? No. Got me out of danger? YES!!! Many times. More times than I can count Cav...

I've never read someone wrong, but I have (myself) did the wrong thing, despite what I understood. Human nature can really foul things up...:eek:

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Put me in danger? No. Got me out of danger? YES!!! Many times. More times than I can count Cav...

I guess it's possible this isn't the place, and it's also possible you wouldn't write to write more, but I would be very interested in reading some more of your experiences.
 
cavalier said:
I guess it's possible this isn't the place, and it's also possible you wouldn't write to write more, but I would be very interested in reading some more of your experiences.

I'm not opposed, but I'm also not about to take up bandwidth here on things about "me". :rolleyes: ;)

I have posted here alot (you think?), and there are "sea stories" in amongst those posts. Perhaps in time, we can meet and I'll be happy to talk your ear off! :D

v/r

Q

p.s. let us consider the first thought that seemed to be on people's minds...speaking in tongues? I have some thoughts on that, that I would like to share.
 
The gift of speaking in tongues. Now I don't quite know where this concept of man speaking in the tongues of angels came about. But Peter and his troop did no such thing. After Pentacost, they came out bold and speaking to the crowd (of mixed origins). As they spoke, each person heard them speaking to them, IN THERE OWN LANGUAGE, at the same time.

The gift of tongues is not some rabble babble that one or two out of a hundred can understand. Nor is it a gift bestowed upon the speaker persee, but rather on the listener.

Who are our people bestowed with the gift of tongues today? Are they those that can assimilate foriegn languages almost instantly?

Or are they the listeners, who suddenly understand what is being said by a foreigner (speaking his/her own language, but the listener hears it in their own language)?

Originally, that is what happened. Peter (for example), spoke, yet Greek, and Arab, and Roman, and Ethiopian all understood him perfectly, and that is what amazed them all!

Why? How? Basic syntax recognition?

my questions

v/r

Q
 
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