The Antichrist

What, Lord Maitrya? He's the planetary ruler for earth. See, this is part of that "ascended Masters" stuff. Ask Taj about it.

Chris
 
I don't understand why we expect the antichrist, given that John says:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/#_ftn1 http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/#_ftnref1The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 . Logos Research Systems, Inc.: Oak Harbor, WA

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/#_ftn1 http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/#_ftnref1The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 . Logos Research Systems, Inc.: Oak Harbor, WA



Sounds like there have already been many antichrists. We tend to think of the anti-Christ as some sinister evil person. But it seems all we have to do to be an antiChrist is deny that Jesus is the Christ. This would seem to include, based on my best reading, that the anti-Christ is just the ordinary person who does not believe in Jesus as the Christ. I welcome deeper insight, this is just my reading.
 
Seen it before - for a Christ (or anti-Christ) figure the showcase photo shows a lot of people don't really seem to care to give him attention (left). It also looks uncannily like John Cleese in Life of Brian (right).
 

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RubySera_Martin said:
I don't understand why we expect the antichrist, given that John says:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 . Logos Research Systems, Inc.: Oak Harbor, WA

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 . Logos Research Systems, Inc.: Oak Harbor, WA



Sounds like there have already been many antichrists. We tend to think of the anti-Christ as some sinister evil person. But it seems all we have to do to be an antiChrist is deny that Jesus is the Christ. This would seem to include, based on my best reading, that the anti-Christ is just the ordinary person who does not believe in Jesus as the Christ. I welcome deeper insight, this is just my reading.

Revelation states there will be one who unites the world for 42 months (a very charismatic individual), then goes nuts for the next 42 months (puts himself as a god to be worshipped), persecuting and destroying, which brings Christ back with His holy army.
 
Quahom1 said:
Revelation states there will be one who unites the world for 42 months (a very charismatic individual), then goes nuts for the next 42 months (puts himself as a god to be worshipped), persecuting and destroying, which brings Christ back with His holy army.

I've heard objection to Christians trying to make the Bible come true. I never knew what they meant, but this statement "which brings Christ back with His holy army" sure looks like humans can influence Christ's return. I don't think that God operates on that inferior level of motivation. I think Christ's return, if it will happen, will be motivated by some larger cosmic principle of which humans cannot guess or imagine. That is how I was raised to believe and in my opinion it fits better with the image of an almighty, all-powerful, all-knowing God. The other fits right in with human prejudices and "hissy-fits" to use someone else's term. I've read Revelation more than once and nowhere did I get the impression that humans can impact Christ's return. Of course, I don't understand that book and was warned that it is not a good book for the immature to read. I was probably about fourteen when I first attempted to read it. It contains some fascinating imagery.
 
RubySera_Martin said:
I've heard objection to Christians trying to make the Bible come true. I never knew what they meant, but this statement "which brings Christ back with His holy army" sure looks like humans can influence Christ's return. I don't think that God operates on that inferior level of motivation. I think Christ's return, if it will happen, will be motivated by some larger cosmic principle of which humans cannot guess or imagine. That is how I was raised to believe and in my opinion it fits better with the image of an almighty, all-powerful, all-knowing God. The other fits right in with human prejudices and "hissy-fits" to use someone else's term. I've read Revelation more than once and nowhere did I get the impression that humans can impact Christ's return. Of course, I don't understand that book and was warned that it is not a good book for the immature to read. I was probably about fourteen when I first attempted to read it. It contains some fascinating imagery.

Ah, but I didn't write the book of Revelations. I only pointed out scripture in a particular holy book. And that particular book is backed by others (Daniel, and Ezekiel), And that book is 1800-2000 years old.

And it is quite specific on how things will happen. Now, whether we believe it or not, is our choice. ;)

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Ah, but I didn't write the book of Revelations. I only pointed out scripture in a particular holy book. And that particular book is backed by others (Daniel, and Ezekiel), And that book is 1800-2000 years old.

And it is quite specific on how things will happen. Now, whether we believe it or not, is our choice. ;)

v/r

Q

I know you did not write the Bible. Do you claim that there is a verse in the Bible that says certain behaviour of a specific world superpower will make Christ come with his armies? I don't remember reading anything to that effect. Would you please you cite chapter and verse so I can read it in context?
 
"For what is Antichrist but those
Who against Sinners heaven close"

William Blake, from "The Everlasting Gospel"

:)
 
RubySera_Martin said:
I know you did not write the Bible. Do you claim that there is a verse in the Bible that says certain behaviour of a specific world superpower will make Christ come with his armies? I don't remember reading anything to that effect. Would you please you cite chapter and verse so I can read it in context?

Actually not a superpower but a person in control of much of the world.

Here is some well thought out and neutral information on who or what the AntiChrist might be: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AntiChrist

In the articlce you will find chapter, verse, and counter thought to what some Christians consider the AntiChrist.

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Actually not a superpower but a person in control of much of the world.

That would be the king or president or prime minister or whatever of the superpower that dominates much of the world. We've had quite a number of those in Western societies over the past four or five centuries.

Here is some well thought out and neutral information on who or what the AntiChrist might be: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AntiChrist

In the articlce you will find chapter, verse, and counter thought to what some Christians consider the AntiChrist.

If I correctly understand that article, then this idea of a single person as the antichrist whose wickedness will bring Christ and his armies is not an explicitly stated verse anywhere in the Bible. It is what people put together from a lot of different sources and contraversial biblical passages. In another post you said:

I only pointed out scripture in a particular holy book. And that particular book is backed by others (Daniel, and Ezekiel), And that book is 1800-2000 years old.

That sounds very much like you are saying that there is a specific passage in the Bible that explicitly says the antiChrist will "brings Christ back with His holy army." I don't understand why you would say that when there is no such passage. I am especially puzzled why you would then challenge a person to believe or disbelieve this non-existent passage. Frankly, I feel like I've been lied to and that this lie has been sealed with an oath (the challenge to believe or disbelieve). There is so much in the Bible against bearing false witness and swearing falsely I just don't understand why Christians are forever lying about what the Bible actually says and then condemning me for not believing.
 
RubySera_Martin said:
...

That sounds very much like you are saying that there is a specific passage in the Bible that explicitly says the antiChrist will "brings Christ back with His holy army." I don't understand why you would say that when there is no such passage. I am especially puzzled why you would then challenge a person to believe or disbelieve this non-existent passage. Frankly, I feel like I've been lied to and that this lie has been sealed with an oath (the challenge to believe or disbelieve). There is so much in the Bible against bearing false witness and swearing falsely I just don't understand why Christians are forever lying about what the Bible actually says and then condemning me for not believing.

I did specifically state that there is a specific passage that tells us Christ returns with His army. I also specifically stated that He is going against a counter to Himself, and that counter or "Beast" has command of all the armies of earth.

You will find it in Revelation Chapter 20. But if you really want to get the story straight, start by reading from Chapter 9 and continue on through Chapter 20. It tells how things get started, who is affected, and how it ultimately ends. Here I'll even set it up for you : http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%209%20;&version=49;

If you don't care for the American Standard version, click on the Bible version of your choice. In fact I encourage you to compare the various versions.

Also, please note that Revelations is a book of prophecy, not a book of historical facts concluded. So how can one lie about what hasn't happened yet? ;)

Finally I challenged no one to believe or disbelieve. I simply stated whether one believes or not IS THEIR CHOICE. If you wish to get down to brass tacks, then the term Anti-Christ is mentioned three times in the Gospels. The term false Christ is mentioned many more throughout the bible. The term Dragon and Beast, and false prophet, are also mentioned many times. This is particularly true in Revelation.

Now I'm not concerned what you think of me (I lied about nothing), but to paint a broad stroke over all Christians as liars, is a bit much. Especially when it is a Christian book.

Unlike others you may have met in your encounters, I'm not here to convert you or win you over. I simply present issues and references to answer your questions. What you do with that information is strictly your business.

No one likes to be called something they are not...:eek:

v/r

Q
 
I can tell you what the antichrist is, and quite specifically. So far, no one has stated it accurately on this particular thread, or at least, that I've noticed.

The antichrist is not a specific individual, for this is the same kind of ignorant, superstitious scapegoating that leads some to falsely assume that "the devil" is a force entirely separate from themselves and external. Nothing could be further from the truth. The greatest battle of all fought within the individual is that between his or her own spiritual Presence (identical with `God' for it is the immanent presence of God within every human heart) ... and the lower, "animal" nature, aka the human ego. In this battle, which precipitates fully in some particular lifetime or another, the Angel of the Presence - a definite Individuality - must defeat the sum-total of "evil" that has accumulated throughout the long series of incarnations that each of us has undergone. Most of us are quite a ways yet from that final battle, thus we face lesser conflicts in our present lifetime, though some of these can be substantial battles in & of themselves.

Notice that nowhere in this have I suggested that there is no such thing as external evil, or an external antichrist. Most certainly there are forces which represent both of these (they are not synonymous - the latter is a subset of the former), yet even on a planetary scale, what I said above applies. Collectively, in terms of Humanity, there is also an antichrist, and this is the same force relative to the whole of Humanity as that within each individual which opposes the Christ Presence. Thus, anything that tends toward separativeness as against Unity ... is of the antichrist. Fear, hatred, antipathy and exclusivity - are all examples of this type of force. Cooperation, Forgiveness, Compassion and the Will-to-Good/Goodwill ... are those qualities which are of the Christ and which can & will OVERCOME the antichrist when developed both within the individual, and within the Group - and within collective Humanity.

Perhaps this is not clear. But I fail to see how we could state it any more directly. Not a person, but rather, human attitudes, and the spirit of resistance to the princples of the New Era (of the Aquarian Christ) ... THIS is antichrist.

And as for a quick note about Benjamin Creme and Share International, as pertinent to the OP from Pico ... NEITHER of these represents IN ANY FORM OR FASHION the antichrist. Creme is a disciple or a world server of a certain status, and is most certainly someone guided by and acting according to the spirit of Christ and the Masters. IMHO, he is certainly not "the official spokeperson for" the Christ, or any of that - and in this respect, he is somewhat entangled in the glamours and illusion that affect all world disciples along the Way. We know that Christ needs no spokesperson, so anyone setting him or herself up as such - has already given us the indication we need to be wary. BUT - Creme plays an important and valuable role, inasmuch as he helps to familiarize the intelligent, thinking public with the fact that Christ and the Masters do exist, that their return is imminent, and that They come according to the Divine Plan ... FOR ALL. In this, Creme and Share International (and numerous other groups stemming from the tradition of Alice Bailey) do us all a Service ... and for that, we should be grateful! :)

Love and Light,

taijasi
 
Quahom1 said:
Now I'm not concerned what you think of me (I lied about nothing), but to paint a broad stroke over all Christians as liars, is a bit much.

I did not specifically state that anybody lied. I really like taijasi's definition of the antiChrist. It's a bit abstract for me to really get a handle on but it sounds realistic.
 
The following excerpt from the teachings of Alice Bailey perhaps states this more clearly than I am capable:
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"the present conflict between the personality of humanity (expressing the material values as the dominating factor in life experience) and the soul of humanity (expressing the spiritual values as the dominating factor in human affairs) is identical with the conflict which takes place within a human being's consciousness when he has reached the stage of discipleship and is faced with the problem of the pairs of opposites. This conflict is expressed in many ways according to the point of view and the background of thought. It can be called the conflict between Christ and Antichrist but not as those who usually employ those phrases understand them. No one nation is expressive of the spirit of Antichrist, just as no one nation expresses the spirit of Christ. Christ and Antichrist are the dualities of spirituality and materialism, both in the individual and in humanity as a whole. Or you can speak of God and the Devil with the same basic implications. For what is man himself but an expression of divinity (God) in a material form (the Devil), and what is matter but the medium through which divinity must eventually manifest in all its glory? But when that takes place, matter will no longer be a controlling factor but simply a medium of expression." (Externalization of the Hierarchy, 137) - emphasis added
[/FONT]​
Actually, this looks a good deal like what I said. The error as I see it, come from the mindset of those who continue to scan the proverbial horizon for the rise of some "evil dictator" or specific presence in the world - which they somehow take as the indicator, perhaps through a misreading of Biblical prophecy - of the future coming of the Christ.

If the latter is what really matters ... then our effort must be to sacrifice all of which we are capable in order to prepare ourselves for this great event. This means to prepare our own hearts & minds, and when we see the opportunity, to seek to be a positive influence on those around us - and to evoke from the environment favorable conditions for Christ's coming.

I wonder ... how well and in what manner do Christian teachings equip the faithful of today for this work of Preparation? Do Christians recognize above all that the Mission of the Christ is one of World Salvation, which operates through Group Consciousness and on the largest scale imaginable - and does not concern itself with primarily with individuals?

taijasi
 
taijasi said:
I can tell you what the antichrist is, and quite specifically. So far, no one has stated it accurately on this particular thread, or at least, that I've noticed.

The antichrist is not a specific individual, for this is the same kind of ignorant, superstitious scapegoating that leads some to falsely assume that "the devil" is a force entirely separate from themselves and external. Nothing could be further from the truth. The greatest battle of all fought within the individual is that between his or her own spiritual Presence (identical with `God' for it is the immanent presence of God within every human heart) ... and the lower, "animal" nature, aka the human ego. In this battle, which precipitates fully in some particular lifetime or another, the Angel of the Presence - a definite Individuality - must defeat the sum-total of "evil" that has accumulated throughout the long series of incarnations that each of us has undergone. Most of us are quite a ways yet from that final battle, thus we face lesser conflicts in our present lifetime, though some of these can be substantial battles in & of themselves.

Notice that nowhere in this have I suggested that there is no such thing as external evil, or an external antichrist. Most certainly there are forces which represent both of these (they are not synonymous - the latter is a subset of the former), yet even on a planetary scale, what I said above applies. Collectively, in terms of Humanity, there is also an antichrist, and this is the same force relative to the whole of Humanity as that within each individual which opposes the Christ Presence. Thus, anything that tends toward separativeness as against Unity ... is of the antichrist. Fear, hatred, antipathy and exclusivity - are all examples of this type of force. Cooperation, Forgiveness, Compassion and the Will-to-Good/Goodwill ... are those qualities which are of the Christ and which can & will OVERCOME the antichrist when developed both within the individual, and within the Group - and within collective Humanity.

Perhaps this is not clear. But I fail to see how we could state it any more directly. Not a person, but rather, human attitudes, and the spirit of resistance to the princples of the New Era (of the Aquarian Christ) ... THIS is antichrist.

And as for a quick note about Benjamin Creme and Share International, as pertinent to the OP from Pico ... NEITHER of these represents IN ANY FORM OR FASHION the antichrist. Creme is a disciple or a world server of a certain status, and is most certainly someone guided by and acting according to the spirit of Christ and the Masters. IMHO, he is certainly not "the official spokeperson for" the Christ, or any of that - and in this respect, he is somewhat entangled in the glamours and illusion that affect all world disciples along the Way. We know that Christ needs no spokesperson, so anyone setting him or herself up as such - has already given us the indication we need to be wary. BUT - Creme plays an important and valuable role, inasmuch as he helps to familiarize the intelligent, thinking public with the fact that Christ and the Masters do exist, that their return is imminent, and that They come according to the Divine Plan ... FOR ALL. In this, Creme and Share International (and numerous other groups stemming from the tradition of Alice Bailey) do us all a Service ... and for that, we should be grateful! :)

Love and Light,

taijasi

Well that is fine. You stick to your secular interpretations, and I suppose Christians will stick with their biblical interpretations. As for me I have my own thoughts.;)

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Well that is fine. You stick to your secular interpretations, and I suppose Christians will stick with their biblical interpretations. As for me I have my own thoughts.;)

v/r

Q

You always do Q :p and we all love to read em I'm sure :)

This is a subject that I associate more with the horror fiction genre of pulp novels and holywood moneymakers.

The problem I find in 'Christian' discussions on this is, and I think I am in agreement with Ruby on this, is the reliance on that incoherant book of fanciful imagery Revelations. The more I have looked into this book the more I feel its time for Cristianity as a whole to dismiss it. It seems to me clear that it was written for that time, 1'st century AD, and as such was written as a political tool, or at best a allegorical commentory on the politcal scene of that time. To find people still using it, dragging it up, regurgitating, interpreting and re-interpreting it today seems to me laughably banal on the one hand and a classic example of how un-Christian some Christians have become, sometime scarily so, on the other.

It seems to me that if we look at and think about what Christ represents, and what he would have done in any given situation then there is hardly a politician or career faith-leader in the world that is not Anti-Christ. Would Christ approve of Guantanamo Bay? Of the poverty of the many in the face of such wealth we 'collectively' dont share? Of priests and Sisters who terrorise and abuse orphan children?
So there are many many individuals in greater or lesser positions of power, all seek that power though, who call themselves Christian and are all to ready to invoke the label of Anti-Christ on others when it suits their needs. It is used by todays 'witch-hunters' in a modern inquisition, evil people seeking always the evil in others for to make them feel better themselves? To let themselves sleep at night?

In essence I agree with the duality Andrew speaks of. We all have both facets, the Christ and the Antichrist, and our spiritual journey will lead us along one or other of these paths. Often the guilty protest the loudest, in the same way we can often see which path someone has chosen.


David
 
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