Admission and Apology

[RubySera_Martin]

I've been trying to figure out what it is I'm looking for in religious dialog. What is the impetus for my interest in Christianity? Why have I lately insisted that I'm a Christian? Am I? What is Christianity?

I admit that I have selfish motives for participating in this kind of forum. I've never had the motive of trying to prove that I'm right, what I figured was that I could put out what I was thinking and then judge it's veracity from the feedback. I was trying to figure out if I'm still a Christian or not. But I don't think I am. If a definition of Christianity is to be found, I think that I must define it as post Nicean. Therefore it doesn't apply to me because I don't believe in salvation or the divinity/diety of Christ. I appologize for using this forum to work that out for myself.

What I'm really looking to do is find a way to universalize metaphysics and synchronize it with physics so that it can be an inner blueprint which explains the the structure of the universe. But I also needed to come to terms with my own programming. I thank all of you for helping me do that, but I don't feel justified in taking up any more of your time. I'm sorry that I had a hand in running some posters off, and if they're lurking I hope they will accept my apology and come back.

Chris

Chris, this post is so close to my own questions and ambitions that it's almost spookie. For starters, the title of the thread is what caught my attention because it fits my mood exactly. I've been feeling I've probably taken things too far for selfish reasons and didn't know which way to turn anymore. After reading this thread I feel somewhat encouraged.

But even if I hadn't read the other posts I'd have to respond to this first one. Am I a Christian? What constitutes a Christian? What label fits me--do I even need a label? But what to tell people who want to know what I am? And on and on.

I also identify with and take consolation in what Path wrote. I've repeated this story a number of times on various forums but I'll repeat it again. As everyone probably knows, I'm studying at a Lutheran seminary. I encountered a different type of Christianity there than I knew existed. These people are sincere Christians but they don't preach hell or necessarily even an afterlife. They do preach salvation through the cross of Jesus and that is where my problem kicks in. I do not see the need for salvation.

The first year I was there I took a required course called "Christian Doctrine." Every other week we had to write our beliefs on the assigned doctrinal topic. This really tested my courage. I knew what I believed but I was not prepared to put it out there for other Christians to judge and condemn. Did I have a Freudian slip back there--I see I said "other Christians" as though I considered myself a Christian. I did not think I was a Christian because the plan of salvation simply does not make sense to me in light of my observation of reality.

Not only did we have to hand in an essay for the prof to read and judge, we also had to read it aloud to two of our classmates. Many a time I went in trembling for fear of being labeled a heretic and blasphemer. But I could not and would not lie. I looked over the essays the other week and was really impressed with the theme running through them. Basically, I was saying, "I don't buy the basic Christian doctrine of a sinful humanity, but here is what I do believe." And then I'd give my take on the most recent assignment.

Not once did anyone, classmate or prof, even hint that what I was saying was not okay. I based every essay on solid personal experience and reasoning and people tuned in to that and were supportive. I had never seen that kind of behaviour from Christians. I felt they lived the way Jesus intended. In other words, it put a new face on Christianity for me.

The very worst was the final essay at the end of an eight-month course. Topic: Why I am Christian. He wanted us to write about the reason we are Christian. I felt like I'd arrived at the Seat of Judgment and I was not prepared. My apprehension was so great that I asked for a meeting with the prof a week ahead of time. I wanted to ask for permission to write about why I am not Christian.

He did not accept that. He pushed me to "find another definition for Christianity."

Can you believe it?!?!? This was an ordained church man. He knew better than any other human on earth what I believed. Yet he wanted me to identify as a Christian....I mean, a person who does not accept the divinity of Jesus and the need for salvation--he invited me as such a person to find a definition of Christian that I felt comfortable with. And I found one.

I find much meaning in the life and teachings of Jesus and his death and resurrection provide a deeply meaningful template by which I can make sense of my life. I concluded that linguistically I can claim the name of Christ because I accept his teachings just as Marxists accept the teachings of Marx.

I think what I am trying to say with this long-winded story (if you're still reading) is that there is room inside of Christianity for practically everyone. I still struggle with what I want to be called. There is so much baggage attached to the name Christian that sometimes I want to have nothing to do with it. But when it comes to celebrating Christmas, well, the Jesus myth is my own story, it's the only story I know. Maybe someday I can feel comfortable with Path's attitude of not caring what label people attach. Or with not caring whether or not I have a label.

 

[taijasi]

Ruby,

I am with you 100%, at least in most respects (I've never entered the seminary, but I was raised by Lutheran parents). So much so, that one of the things I really wish we could do - sometime - is open up/start a thread on the Christianity forums on Soteriology/Salvation. I'd like to do that so that there is a definite focus for a topic, yet also allow it to be an "experimental" type thread ... or one in a similar vein to some that occasionally arise at CR.

Such a thread really doesn't belong on `Esoteric' or Alternative imo, because it's too central to the Heart (sic) of Christianity. And again, I'm with you 100% - I think that the Resurrection is quite key to Christianity, but that Salvation ... is open to many different interpretations. For me, it's the emphasis on a Living, Risen Christ that matters (ALL that matters, in fact, along with the Two Commandments that He taught). For others, I know there is value in contemplating the nature and type of sacrifice that was made, because there is much inspiration found there.

But what is unfortunate, and very discouraging to me, is that some folks seem to believe "their Christianity is better" or that they've somehow attained to some special status with God that is unreachable by those who do not believe similarly, or accept the exact wording and what-not of their own chosen path! I mean, ummm, yo - what the dealy???

Still, on such a thread as I'm suggesting, even to say what I just said really wouldn't fit ... because it would not be about criticism, nor about backing one's faith and beliefs up by citing scripture, church authorities and historical evidence, tradition, etc. No, I'm just talking about a sharing - round robin kind of thing - where people say what is meaningful to them! And maybe for a change - NO CRITICISM. Sighhh ...

I think it's wrong to back someone in a corner and say, WHY do you believe x, y or z about Jesus (or whatever) - unless they have openly invited a challenge ... and of course, then it still better be friendly, otherwise, what business could we possibly have so challenging someone? This is why proselytism just doesn't belong at CR or anywhere, imo. If one feels the need to do that, s/he really isn't interested in another person's true FAITH to begin with!

Anyway, my thoughts are scattered at the moment - sorry 'bout that. Too much multitasking. But I think it important to add that it is has never been my intention to press a point so much so that anyone felt uncomfortable ... either sharing their own POV, or giving the reasons for their beliefs. There are plenty of folks at CR, both on the Christian forums and otherwise, who are quite forward - candid & direct - about their beliefs and viewpoint. I have noticed this over 2 years or so. And I dare say I have been one of them - sometimes either posting hastily, and wishing I'd bitten my tongue after the 30-minute edit window is up. Of course, after that, another purpose is usually served, and altogether new opportunities present themselves - even if one regrets indiscretion on an earlier post.

I really had more to add - but will have to do so later after organizing my thoughts/feelings. I guess I'm driving at two things ... one is an agreement with everything you said, Ruby - but I'm also commenting on my own past history of both challenging other folks (on this forum), and of presenting non-conventional approaches to Christianity. Much of this is interwoven, and I am quite tempted to just jump ship and look at things from a pyschological POV ... I mean, there are so many ways to approach and understand faith/religion/spirituality. It just seems vital to get out of the habit of a critical & judgmental attitude, which always says more about the person & the poster than anything else ... and get into the habit of acceptance, diplomacy, inclusivity and using the Socratic method. Oops - I think that was a note to self (See!) ... and I just typed it out loud.

Love and Light to all,

taijasi

 

[lunamoth]

I think what I am trying to say with this long-winded story (if you're still reading) is that there is room inside of Christianity for practically everyone. I still struggle with what I want to be called. There is so much baggage attached to the name Christian that sometimes I want to have nothing to do with it. But when it comes to celebrating Christmas, well, the Jesus myth is my own story, it's the only story I know. Maybe someday I can feel comfortable with Path's attitude of not caring what label people attach. Or with not caring whether or not I have a label.

Thank you for sharing this part of your story with us Ruby. Very cool. luna

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Hi Ruby!

Listen, I really appreciate the solidarity, and I'm so intrigued with your story of where you've been and where you are now.

I'm capable of debating from any number of sides, but I have no passion left for debate. I don't care about proving I'm smart anymore. I don't know what I am. I'm nothing, I'm everything...I don't know, no label fits.

I care about people. I'm interested in people and their experiences. I'm trying to write like I sound in real life. I'm trying to smear myself on the page and be real. I'm trying to give what I'd like to get.

Could you tell me a little more about what you have discoverd in Christianity that you find worthwhile and appealing?

Chris

 

[RubySera_Martin]

Could you tell me a little more about what you have discoverd in Christianity that you find worthwhile and appealing?

Chris

Oh boy! Do you want to know what I just spent an hour doing? Writing an email for my Christian seminary prof that I probably am not a Christian and cannot read an author he assigned because that particular author argues on the presupposition that God exists and that we must take the Bible at its word. I can no longer do that; too many things in real life don't line up with the biblical account. Well, there are some things about Christian culture that I like, such as Christmas for example. And the life and teachings of Jesus as I explained above. And church music and Christmas carols. I cannot find a church that nurtures me spiritually. I am very eclectic (choosing bits and pieces here and there that speak to my soul) and have not attended church regularly for a few years. I think what I'm saying is that there are perhaps more things about Christianity that don't attrack me than that do. I'm not sure how helpful this is. Sometimes I find it liberating to know I am not the only person who does not accept traditional Christianity uncritically. I have found a few ex-Christians who have functioned sort of like mentors or role models for how not to be a Christian even though the whole belief system in instilled in one entire being.

 

[Quahom1]

Hi Ruby!

Listen, I really appreciate the solidarity, and I'm so intrigued with your story of where you've been and where you are now.

I'm capable of debating from any number of sides, but I have no passion left for debate. I don't care about proving I'm smart anymore. I don't know what I am. I'm nothing, I'm everything...I don't know, no label fits.

I care about people. I'm interested in people and their experiences. I'm trying to write like I sound in real life. I'm trying to smear myself on the page and be real. I'm trying to give what I'd like to get.

Could you tell me a little more about what you have discoverd in Christianity that you find worthwhile and appealing?

Chris

Eat a Cayenne pepper... just to tangle the taste buds (to start). Then go to church, and sit in the back (with no service). Take all of your internal questions with you, and sit. Maybe find a church where they are practicing music (and hear all the mistakes they make while they perfect their song)... I think, you'll feel right at home.

my thoughts

v/w (wespectully, uuuuu wabbit)

Q

 

[RubySera_Martin]

Taijasi, I'll try to respond to your idea about a thread though I'm not sure how well my brain is working anymore; it's getting a bit late. It occurred to me that perhaps the comparative section would be right for it. If I correctly catch your vision, it seems like you would like to compare salvation with esoterism. That's why I suggest the comparative religion section. I don't know if you can word it so that criticism would be avoided or not. Sometimes people want to discuss and critique things. I personally like to know the why behind what a person believes. I might not be able to contribute in a way you would find constructive. There may be others like me. When you get a chance to collect your thoughts and weigh the pros and cons you will likely know what you want to do--whether it is worth the risk, etc.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Eat a Cayenne pepper... just to tangle the taste buds (to start). Then go to church, and sit in the back (with no service). Take all of your internal questions with you, and sit. Maybe find a church where they are practicing music (and hear all the mistakes they make while they perfect their song)... I think, you'll feel right at home.

my thoughts

v/w (wespectully, uuuuu wabbit)

Q

I'm looking for a church with an enormous pipe organ. I'm crazy about organ music, especially Bach. I'll suffer through the sermon if only I can hear the organ.

Chris

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Ruby,

You said:

I find much meaning in the life and teachings of Jesus and his death and resurrection provide a deeply meaningful template by which I can make sense of my life.

Could you take a stab at explaining the part I've emphasized? I'm asking because one of the main problems I have with Christianity is its obsession with Jesus' death. I like the teachings too, and I'm ethnically Christian so I like the holidays, but I don't have any affinity with the whole Christ death cult thing. Maybe you can help me find a different way of looking at it?

Chris

 

[taijasi]

I'm looking for a church with an enormous pipe organ. I'm crazy about organ music, especially Bach. I'll suffer through the sermon if only I can hear the organ.

Chris

Man, even on this little computer with Creative 24-bit sound, 4 spkrs and a sub, I love to crank up Bach's stachatta and fudge in D minor (I know that was horrible, I blame the Spaten). Seriously though, I want my WALLS to shake with that wonderful SOUND!!!

Always been a Bach fan, would give anything to hear some played on a few famous pipe organs. Love all the Bachs, even PDQ. Good ol' JS though - he's the man!!!

-andrew

 

[RubySera_Martin]

Ruby,

You said:

Could you take a stab at explaining the part I've emphasized? I'm asking because one of the main problems I have with Christianity is its obsession with Jesus' death. I like the teachings too, and I'm ethnically Christian so I like the holidays, but I don't have any affinity with the whole Christ death cult thing. Maybe you can help me find a different way of looking at it?

Chris

I hear ya, Chris! I am speaking metaphorically. I've had to forgo my deep need/desire for approval of my parents and siblings and the larger community to make something of my life that made it worth living for me. I'm not sure how to explain it so it makes sense to others, esp. people who find life enjoyable and meaningful and have love and life and respect in their daily relationships. You see, I had none of this in my family and community. I was desperately, desperately unhappy. All I wanted was to feel love and respect by those close to me and to have fulfilling work. All of this was denied to me and I was condemned for not being happy with the situation. Around the age of forty the thought hit me that they never would approve of me. Around the same time the thought also hit me that God has had a long enough chance to answer my burning questions and he has not done that, either. In other words, I realized that neither the people in my life nor the God I had been taught to trust were ever going to come through for me. I could take it or leave it but that was the situation. Life is never that clear-cut but in retrospect that is basically what happened.

I did my homework and found out that I qualified to apply at the local university (which I later found out was world class and the best in Canada). So I applied and was accepted. BUT in doing so I put my emotional and spiritual existence on the line. (It was on the line anyway; otherwise I could not have done it.) The church believed higher education led away from God and forbade it. This meant that in order to get training for a meaningful career, I had to forgo all human relationships except for one or two friendships I had been able to develop with outsiders. (I need to also mention my one sister with whom I was sharing a home at the time; at considerable cost to herself she supported me every step of the way. I needed that like crops need sunshine.) I had to forgo spiritual security in that I was raised to believe that our particular church would lead more surely to salvation than any other. There were other churches in the area that were of the same culture as the one where I grew up but I knew that they disapproved of higher education, too. I decided to "go all the way" to "the world" for a faith community. In retrospect, it was a way station because it was not the right place for me over the long term, but there was no way I could go the transition all alone; I needed the support of a community. And I found it there.

At university I found for the first time in my life a community that accepted and respected me as a person. The costs were enormous, stupendous. Outsiders who knew me at the time seemed to see the majorness of the situation more clearly than I could at the time. All I could do was focus on putting one foot ahead of the other and deal with the severe persecution inflicted by family and former friends. Basically, they were telling me that I was on the road to hell. My sister suffered for supporting me; guilty by association, I guess. She also felt it very deeply when people spoke critically of me. Others thought she had a hard life living with me and this hurt her very deeply. She stayed with the old church because it is her spiritual home and eventually things settled down for her.

At the very moment in which I formalized the decision to leave the church I experienced what in Christian terms is the new birth. I was filled with an unspeakable joy and peace and liberty I had not known was available to humans. This, along with the very positive acceptance at school, made life worth living. I have not looked back or regretted making the change. It was the ultimate sacrifice for me and it felt like the crucifixion. But the new life I got as a result was like the resurrection.

There are other ways to make sense of my life but this is what works best for me. Another huge risk is financial. I had worked all my life at subsistence wages--just enough to live on so long as I kept working. The province makes education available to those in financial need via student loans. I am nearly fifty and penniless. Financially, it was the most stupid thing I could have done to go to school. But I was out of options so I went on faith. Faith in I don't know who or what. I keep saying "God got me into this, he's gotta get me out." So I use the story of the Israelite exodus to make sense of this aspect of my life. I feel like I am at the Jordon when it is in full flood and that like the priests had to go forward till they stood in the water, then God made a way for them. That has very much been the case in my life up till now. I don't know where God (life? fate? I don't know) is leading but I know I have to go forward in faith like the Israelites and trust that things will work out.

As a result of the new life I found at school and outside my community of origin, I am able to interpret the New Testament in a way that fits secular humanism. Jesus said, "The kingdom is within you." I think I am like the man in the parable who found a field containg a pearl of great price and sold all he had in order to buy that field. I feel like I have forsaken all to seek the kingdom.

Jesus said "My burden is light and my yoke is easy." That is what I found. There still was a burden and yoke (the terrible pain of knowing how deeply I'd hurt my family and also the terrible pain of the alienation surely constituted a burden and yoke) but these burden and yoke were bearable. Much more bearable than the burden and yoke the church had placed on me. Remember, they condemned me for not being happy with their oppression of me.

This is a brief overview of how I use Bible stories, esp. the Jesus story, to make sense of my life. Like I said, there are other stories to use. Many people use movies. The Bible is the story I am familiar with.

 

[lunamoth]

Hi Ruby, You application of the passion story to your life, and the way you use the Bible in general, seems quite appropriate to me. Yours is a story with a lot of courage and faith (your own; I'm not trying to imply a belief that you do not claim). Have you ever considered writing your story for publication? You have the skill, I think.

Laurie

 

[RubySera_Martin]

Hi Ruby, You application of the passion story to your life, and the way you use the Bible in general, seems quite appropriate to me.

Thank you.

Yours is a story with a lot of courage and faith (your own; I'm not trying to imply a belief that you do not claim). Have you ever considered writing your story for publication? You have the skill, I think.

You're about the seven dozenth person to say this. But thanks for your kind words. There are ethical issues that need serious consideration if ever I do write it for publication. If I write it under my real name then I will expose family members and other relatives and community members. Even using fictitious names wouldn't get around that because everyone knows everyone well enough to read between the lines. So if ever I do write it, it will probably be under the pen name I use here and quite likely it will be in the style of a novel. At this point, I'm just not into that kind of writing. I've given it a number of honest attempts but it never goes anywhere. Someone suggested that perhaps I am not meant to write it and that felt very liberating. My life experience has had such a profound impact on who I am and how I see God, self, and others that it will inevitably show up in any academic or scholarly writing I do. This raises another point--

Chris, regarding the use of these forums for personal ends, I use forums like this in which to work out my ideas. That is not exactly a conscious goal but it is one of the consequences or side effects. It has brought concrete results in providing direction for my education, and once in a while someone happens to mention an article or incident from the news media that I can use as an example in a writing assignment for a course. I think this is a bit like raising a crop in order to have seed to plant a new crop ad infinitum.

On forums like this we pick up ideas, we plant ideas, we process these ideas, we plant new ideas, and on and on. Sometimes in the process something positive happens. Like a stalwart young tree.

Laurie, thanks for your reassurance that my application of the biblical story seems appropriate to Christians...I assume you are a Christian?

 

[lunamoth]

Laurie, thanks for your reassurance that my application of the biblical story seems appropriate to Christians...I assume you are a Christian?

Lol. Yes. I'm an Episcopalian. The middle way (which means I get hit from both sides).

luna