How to start and stay on the path

[Penguin]

I’m reading more about Christianity now than I ever have and I am finding it very interesting indeed. Even if somebody doesn’t believe the Bible to be the word of God etc it is none the less a pleasant book. The only religion I have been interested in the past is Buddhism but although it still interests me I find it quite Nihilistic.
I have just started to try and read the Bible again and have almost completed genesis. I want to believe in Jesus and God and I do believe 100% that Jesus existed and walked the earth and did what he did but I just can’t get my head around the fact that he was the Son of God. Another problem I have is that some of the qualities required to be a wholesome Christian I just don’t possess, like tolerance of and kindness to other people is the main problem. I have a very short temper indeed and some people I just hate completely, when I am near them I just want them to go away forever and they make me feel sick. In some cases I wish harm upon them, I know it’s wrong but something takes over. One thing about Buddhism for example is that you try to make yourself a better person by meditation etc, you try and purify yourself but with the Bible etc I myself am finding it very difficult to put the scripture into some form of application into myself to make me a better person. I have felt the benefits greatly of Buddhist meditation and it did make me a calmer person when I was doing it, how can my continued reading of the Bible and booklets from my local Evangelical church do the equivalent for me? Is it possible and how?
I was walking in town over the weekend and stopped to listen to a Pastor from the local Evangelical church. When he had finished after 10 minutes he came over and started to speak to me and we had a very nice conversation for half an hour. He gave me some booklets on “why believe the Bible” by John Blanchard and I have read them and they prove the Bible wins every time when people have tried to dismiss it, proven by fact and history. It really cemented in what I knew already. In the booklet though it states that all the prophecies the Bible states have been proven to be correct. Can somebody tell me a few and provide a few examples as I am a bit confused and don’t know what it means. I’m finding the Bible hard to digest & heavy going but I will continue.
I want to believe in God & Jesus and sometimes I really do feel if they are calling me but I just can’t imagine myself singing hymns and praying in a church, I’m not afraid to admit I would feel embarrassed, shy and out of place. I wouldn’t know how to let myself go and I’d also be worried on what my wife would think as she isn’t religious and has had a previous relationship in where her partner, due to the religion he took on, got hostile and abusive to her. I don’t want her to think “oh no here we go again, second time around!” (no that Christianity encourages this sort of thing!) Another thing the Pastor said to me was that to be allowed into heaven/paradise one has to be baptised (full immersion) which really does appeal to me and I think it would be a really important and emotional experience for me, it must be a fantastic feeing and very powerful. I told the Pastor I had been Christened and he said it’s not the same thing really and explained why. He also said “you have to give yourself to Jesus & God and have the full immersion and say why you give yourself also, there’s no other way my friend, then you will have your salvation” This really moved me to be honest. After existing for almost 33 years on this planet it’s not going to be an easy task for me to incorporate Christianity into my life once I have contented myself on the fundamentals of it all. I accept Jesus but God is going to be very difficult indeed. Any tips would be appreciated. Many thanks.

 

[Penguin]

I have just realised I have posted this in the wrong section, oops. Sorry, but can somebody move this into Christianity please. Many thanks, sorry again.

 

[wil]

Namaste Penguin congrats for taking the plunge! Good stuff. A friend of mine was ordained/installed as a Buddhist Monk this weekend, very enlightening, the preceptor said...doubt everything, prove it all to yourself...wow.

So as you are growing from your Buddhist thoughts to Christian thinking, allow it to wash over you...explore the book, you will question a lot, as there is a lot in there.

Your feelings where you have issues with other people are not uncommon, takes quite an individual to contemplate unconditional love and compassion toward his fellow man. One of my mantras is that when I feel anger welling up, or being judgemental about another person....if I can't see the Christ, or G-d in them, tis because I am not connected to the G-d or Christ in me. We all have that spark of divinity, we are all children of G-d and the more firm we make that connection (doesn't matter whether you call your method of reinforcement meditation, contemplation or prayer) the more we make that connecton strong, the easier it is to see oneness, and the good in others. Not an easy task, a challenge for all of us.

And we al stumble off the path, that is why a congregation, a support group, folks that resonate with your thinking are so valuable. Always great to get the nudge or the hand when we are learning the ropes....or forget our way.

Peace and blessings.

 

[Dondi]

Another problem I have is that some of the qualities required to be a wholesome Christian I just don’t possess, like tolerance of and kindness to other people is the main problem. I have a very short temper indeed and some people I just hate completely, when I am near them I just want them to go away forever and they make me feel sick. In some cases I wish harm upon them, I know it’s wrong but something takes over. One thing about Buddhism for example is that you try to make yourself a better person by meditation etc, you try and purify yourself but with the Bible etc I myself am finding it very difficult to put the scripture into some form of application into myself to make me a better person. I have felt the benefits greatly of Buddhist meditation and it did make me a calmer person when I was doing it, how can my continued reading of the Bible and booklets from my local Evangelical church do the equivalent for me? Is it possible and how?

You are right. You don't possess those quailities of a wholesome Christian....not yet. The whole idea of Christianity is to be comformed into the image of Christ, and this is something that God will effect that change. We all have our nuances that keep us from being perfect. And this is what God is out to change through His Love.

Here is something I posted on another forum that I hope will help you understand:

Love like Jesus loves

God's aim is to conform us to the image of Christ. But we cannot do this of our own accord. So God gives us two means that work hand in hand to accomplish this: His Spirit and His Word.

His Spirit

God gives us His Spirit when we come to Him for salvation. When we recognize that our sinful state separates us from God and His love, we have to come to God for His forgiveness and mercy. By all rights, we should be punished for our sins, but God made a way through Jesus Christ that will allow His judgement on us to fall on Christ. When Jesus died on the Cross, our sins went with Him. Jesus became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God (II Corinthians 5:21). He cleanses us by His Blood (1 John 1:7) and forgives us on that basis. Having cleansed our souls of sin, He regenerates us with His Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5). God's Spirit give us life through Jesus Christ. We become "born-again" into His Family and can be called sons and daughters of God (John 1:12).

God's Spirit is the sustaining power in our lives. After His resurrection, Jesus sent the Comforter (Holy Spirit) to His disciples so that they will be able to live for God (John 14:17). They became bold and carried the Gospel to every nation (Acts 1:8). They had the Spirit of Christ. Without Him we can do nothing good:

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." - John 15:4-5

God's Spirit empowers us to live for Him and gives us the ability to love others as He loved us. God's love becomes our love. When we abide in Christ and obey God, God can use us to do His Will in bringing other to Him and power for living the Christian life. The Spirit manifests in our lives when we are obedient to His commands or His Word (John 14:21).

His Word:

God's Word works in conjunction with His Spirit in giving us instruction in how to live. II Timothy 3:16-17 states,

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

The Word is God's will for our lives. We must hide His Word in our hearts:

"Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments. Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee." - Psalm 119:9-11

And we must hide His Word in our mind:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." - Romans 12:1-2

We renew our mind by reading and meditating on the Scriptures. But we also must be doers of the Word.

"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." - James 1:22-25

By doing the Word, we are able to fulfill the perfect law of liberty. And what is this law of liberty?

"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:" - James 2:8


The Word of God gives us instruction about how we can love our neighbor as ourself. And when we love others, we love God:

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." - Matthew 25:40

Love & peace,

Dondi

 

[Jeannot]

I’m reading more about Christianity now than I ever have and I am finding it very interesting indeed. Even if somebody doesn’t believe the Bible to be the word of God etc it is none the less a pleasant book. The only religion I have been interested in the past is Buddhism but although it still interests me I find it quite Nihilistic.
I have just started to try and read the Bible again and have almost completed genesis. I want to believe in Jesus and God and I do believe 100% that Jesus existed and walked the earth and did what he did but I just can’t get my head around the fact that he was the Son of God. Another problem I have is that some of the qualities required to be a wholesome Christian I just don’t possess, like tolerance of and kindness to other people is the main problem. I have a very short temper indeed and some people I just hate completely, when I am near them I just want them to go away forever and they make me feel sick. In some cases I wish harm upon them, I know it’s wrong but something takes over. One thing about Buddhism for example is that you try to make yourself a better person by meditation etc, you try and purify yourself but with the Bible etc I myself am finding it very difficult to put the scripture into some form of application into myself to make me a better person. I have felt the benefits greatly of Buddhist meditation and it did make me a calmer person when I was doing it, how can my continued reading of the Bible and booklets from my local Evangelical church do the equivalent for me? Is it possible and how?
I was walking in town over the weekend and stopped to listen to a Pastor from the local Evangelical church. When he had finished after 10 minutes he came over and started to speak to me and we had a very nice conversation for half an hour. He gave me some booklets on “why believe the Bible” by John Blanchard and I have read them and they prove the Bible wins every time when people have tried to dismiss it, proven by fact and history. It really cemented in what I knew already. In the booklet though it states that all the prophecies the Bible states have been proven to be correct. Can somebody tell me a few and provide a few examples as I am a bit confused and don’t know what it means. I’m finding the Bible hard to digest & heavy going but I will continue.
I want to believe in God & Jesus and sometimes I really do feel if they are calling me but I just can’t imagine myself singing hymns and praying in a church, I’m not afraid to admit I would feel embarrassed, shy and out of place. I wouldn’t know how to let myself go and I’d also be worried on what my wife would think as she isn’t religious and has had a previous relationship in where her partner, due to the religion he took on, got hostile and abusive to her. I don’t want her to think “oh no here we go again, second time around!” (no that Christianity encourages this sort of thing!) Another thing the Pastor said to me was that to be allowed into heaven/paradise one has to be baptised (full immersion) which really does appeal to me and I think it would be a really important and emotional experience for me, it must be a fantastic feeing and very powerful. I told the Pastor I had been Christened and he said it’s not the same thing really and explained why. He also said “you have to give yourself to Jesus & God and have the full immersion and say why you give yourself also, there’s no other way my friend, then you will have your salvation” This really moved me to be honest. After existing for almost 33 years on this planet it’s not going to be an easy task for me to incorporate Christianity into my life once I have contented myself on the fundamentals of it all. I accept Jesus but God is going to be very difficult indeed. Any tips would be appreciated. Many thanks.

Best wishes to you. BTW, if you move toward Christianity, I see no need for you to abandon at least some of the practices and idea of Buddhism.

 

[Virtual_Cliff]

Just a couple of quick tips Penguin.

First, don't be hard on yourself. It is central to Christianity that no-one is better than anyone else. That's very important.

Second, if you plough through the Bible book by book you will get discouraged, disgusted, and bored. I suggest contemplating the Gospels (Matthew Mark Luke and John) thoroughly first.

Third, not all churches are the same!!! Some are narrow - some very broad indeed. You may like Baptists, you may like alternative worship. I don't see you need to stop your meditation though.

Best wishes,
VC

 

[Penguin]

Hi all,
Many thanks for your replies to my post. I'm having a good and interesting time educating myself on Christianity although it is hard going sometimes. There are a few things I would like clarification on if possible. If I think negative or harmful thoughts about somebody then surely god will know and it will go against me when my time comes. I don't believe that god would turn a blind eye, so to speak and ignore it. The bible encourages that one should be wholesome and take people for what they are regardless. I still don't understand where to find all the prophecies that the bible has correctly predicted. A thing which really does fuel me is that the bible exists in the first place! There were prophets before and after jesus and nothing was written about them once they had died so why was jesus different? He was worth writing about and following. Something big happened and he made a massive impact and still does today and this speaks for itself I think. In jesus's time after a prophet had been put to death I can't see the romans & jews saying "oh dear, I think we may have killed the son of god, we made a mistake" or similar words to this depending on what the prophet claimed he was. The condemed would just have been forgotten about very quickly, but jesus wasn't and this to me along with other factors means he was the annointed one maybe. It's one of the issues I am struggling with and convincing myself he was the son of god is not easy. Some days I think he was and others I don't after reading various works by top scholars on the gospels, resurrection etc and working things out for myself.
After the resurrection when people saw jesus and reported he was alive again then why didn't the authorities round up the remaining disciples & everybody connected with jesus and put them to death? as in a way they were still carrying on his teachings and supporting him. Surely it would have been dangerous to leave his hardened supporters to roam free and still claim he was the son of god and offend the temples etc. Did the disciples disappear once jesus had died? did the romans realise they had made a mistake and let them be? did they just keep quiet and not believe in what jesus had shown them? Which of these, if any, is correct?
If I have accepted I am a sinner, then I am a sinner! It's plain and simple and I will be for the high jump. I can see why in a way a pastor would say "if you don't get baptised then it's hard for you to make progress to god and jesus and you have to give yourself completely" "you will not go to heaven" which was said to me and in a pleasant way I might add. For instance, somebody who has never believed has a barrel of a gun placed to their forehead and will have their head blown off, the first thing that person may do is start to prey and soil their pants. So, although this person has never believed in god/jesus at all, (they could even be an atheist) once the trigger is pulled automatically they get into heaven because they have prayed for 10 seconds prior to death? I think one would have to demonstrate a belief throughout one's life to qualify and not just for a casual situation when its crops up. You don't get something for nothing at anything in life and surely you have to give yourself to god and jesus and prove your "worth" so they will be gracious to you at your time of death and to enjoy the pleasant state of blackness & peace (we have all experienced it already, the blackness before your first childhood memories, the nothingness) Could this be heaven? This is why I will get baptised if I go "all the way" as I want them to know I have believed fully and maybe I will have peace. Alternatively, I will be sent to hell and reborn on earth again to enter the circle of life here. Who knows!

 

[Jeannot]

Penguin,

I would say that if you've already been baptized (Christened), then you don't have to be baptized again. Baptism is baptism.

Also, the title "Son of God" is not what presents difficulty with Jesus. It's the claim that he was God. Different humans were called the Son of God, w'o any thought that they were God.

Leave questions of your salvation to God. Meanwhile, try to conform yourself to Jesus. Read, for example, the Sermon on the Mount in Jesus. We should do the right thing, and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Virtual_Cliff]

Penguin,

Probably the hardest thing to understand is that God's love is unconditional. I have trouble remembering that myself. Try repeating it a hundred times before bed. And when you say it remember too that everyone is a sinner. There are no grades. So you don't have to earn God's love - you can't. In fact it would be ungrateful or arrogant to suppose that you could.

Yes of course there must have been something pretty special about Jesus. Why else would fishermen just walk away from their nets and follow him? Why would people from far and wide crowd round him just to be near him?

Please read those Gospels. They will answer so many questions. Jesus once said the most important thing is to love God and to love all other people. He said we should be inclusive in our love, just as God is. The key word is love. Let that be your driving force and everything will come out right. Don't be afraid. God wants us, now, to enjoy the peace, the happiness and beauty of knowing him in our lives. He is not into threats; warnings perhaps - like "If you ignore what I say you are throwing your life away" but not threats. Take it easy. This is supposed to be good!

 

[cavalier]

Penguin,

I would say that if you've already been baptized (Christened), then you don't have to be baptized again. Baptism is baptism.

This view, that baptism is baptism, is a view only held by some Christians. It is true that there are cases in the Bible of infant Baptism, but we are also commanded to "believe and be baptised"

On this point I think it is imporatant to remember that churches that practice infant baptism also use confirmation. In whatever church you go to, you would be encouraged to make some form of adult declaration of your beliefs. In an evangelical church that would be adult or believers baptism.

I don't think one of these things is better than the other. They are just different ways of acknowledging your shortcommings, welcomming God into your life, and asking Jesus Christ to be your saviour.

Follow your convictions and do what makes sense to you, God will be happy.

 

[cavalier]

I really appreciate the things you wrote here

Penguin,

Probably the hardest thing to understand is that God's love is unconditional. I have trouble remembering that myself. Try repeating it a hundred times before bed. And when you say it remember too that everyone is a sinner. There are no grades. So you don't have to earn God's love - you can't. In fact it would be ungrateful or arrogant to suppose that you could.

Yes of course there must have been something pretty special about Jesus. Why else would fishermen just walk away from their nets and follow him? Why would people from far and wide crowd round him just to be near him?

Please read those Gospels. They will answer so many questions. Jesus once said the most important thing is to love God and to love all other people. He said we should be inclusive in our love, just as God is. The key word is love. Let that be your driving force and everything will come out right. Don't be afraid. God wants us, now, to enjoy the peace, the happiness and beauty of knowing him in our lives. He is not into threats; warnings perhaps - like "If you ignore what I say you are throwing your life away" but not threats.

Especially this

Take it easy. This is supposed to be good!

yasss

 

[cavalier]

Penguin, God already knows you're a sinner and still wants you. Don't worry too much about what you can't do. I agree with what Dondi said earlier, you don't have those things yet, but they will come. Concentrate on what you can do, not what you can't.

I know what you mean about feeling a bit embarrassed in church. Some of the things people say sometimes make me feel a bit awkward, especially when you know they want you to say the same kind of thing. Be sincere, if you don't want to say hallelujah, or cross yourself, kneel, or close your eyes as if lost in deep reverie, then don't. Like before I guess, do what you can do, not what you can't.

I hope goes well for you.

 

[Penguin]

Hi all,
Many thanks for all your contributions. I would be greatful if somebody could answer the questions in my previous post. Many thanks.

 

[Jeannot]

Hi all,
Many thanks for all your contributions. I would be greatful if somebody could answer the questions in my previous post. Many thanks.

Some of the questons I think are unanswerable.

As for the Romans, they weren't overly concerned about sectarian quarrels within Judaism.

 

[taijasi]

Hi all,
Many thanks for all your contributions. I would be greatful if somebody could answer the questions in my previous post. Many thanks.

Penguin,

For the record, Jesus of Nazareth taught that we are all the Sons of the Most High God. He pointed out again & again in the Bible, sometimes with great emphasis, that "greater things than this, ye shall do" (John 14:12) - and this included healing the sick, and other "miracles." Please consult this verse and read it carefully. It is unequivocal and straightforward.

And without a doubt, there have been since Jesus' time those who have done just that! There have been great healers, messengers (prophets), and world servers (disciples), unto the present day - many of them being well-known in just this past century.

So the idea that Jesus of Nazareth was totally unique, or an exception to the rule, is not true at all. What is true, is that He represented a state of accomplishment and spiritual development far, far ahead of where the masses of Humanity now stand. But what He Himself accomplished is not unattainable, for Jesus told us that we too, would one day attain and minister, even greater than Jesus Himself!!!

Some people use the word `Saints' to refer to those who have attained, and who have come to a greater measure of Christhood than the masses. In the East, especially in Buddhism and Hinduism, these men and women are called Rishis, Aryas, Lamas, Rimpoches, and so forth. But they are not unique any more than Christ Jesus was, except in that they have accomplished ahead of the rest of us what is destined for ALL. And they have chosen, like Jesus of Nazareth, to remain here on Earth for awhile - to help others to accelerate their spiritual growth, since the planet is going through a crisis right now.

There was, of course, something that caused Christed Jesus to come to the forefront of the public consciousness 2100 years ago ... and to remain there even unto the present times. I think it is twofold, maybe threefold. One factor was certainly the Church, but I prefer to dwell on another factor, of which the Christian Churches are really a subset - and that is the Followers of Christ's Teachings, around the world, no matter what religion these people choose to outwardly follow. The true religion of Christ, aside from all the creeds and outward observances, is LOVE. That a wo/man Love God, and Love his or her neighbor ... is all that is required, to be a follower of Christ. By this definition, MANY who call themselves Christian are not, and plenty of people who have never even heard of Christ - ARE His true followers. It is just sad - that ANY person should resent or dispute this in the least. Imho, it shows a considerable lack of maturity ...

But the Church Itself, in its many arms and branches - Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant ... with literally thousands of offshoots & denominations, has also advanced the Teachings and the religion of Christ - almost as a marketing campaign, and the missionary effort has made it around the whole world many times over throughout the centuries. This is certainly the 2nd reason that Christ stands out to us as a significant figure, and someone worthy of listening to, and imitating, as a Guide.

The third reason, however, begins to get at the metaphysics of the matter - and addresses the question of Christ's true Nature, his Spiritual significance, both unto itself, and in relation to the rest of Humanity. And though I've said that He is not unique, save that He reached the goal ahead of us, there IS something about Christ's accomplishment(s) that I think every Christian inwardly recognizes, as well as many people who do not even call themselves Christian, and remain skeptical. Even the most detached & scientific of observers and historians cannot but help become intrigued as s/he studies the life and Teachings of this man, Jesus of Nazareth. And the reason, I suggest, is what He symbolized.

Even more than just symbolized, I mean what Christ embodied for us - and this goes far beyond the word itself, `Christ' meaning annointed, just as Messias does. Annointed with what??? With OIL, or with WATER, from some kind of Initiation ritual, some ceremony, in accordance with tradition? No, I think that this too, is part of the symbolism, preserved today through the Baptismal rites (a Sacrament, or Consecration) in most churches. Certainly this is about purification, but so what? Even as we ourselves become purified - in thought, emotion (desire), and action - does this make us a Christ?

No, the transformation that we must undergo is even more significant, more far-reaching, and because it affects every single fiber, cell and atom of our being ... it is something which is a lifetime in the making. It is gradual, and the person who has come through this transformation - symbolized for us by Jesus Christ as the Transfiguration on the Mount - has gone through a metamorphosis every bit as fundamental and as radical as that from a caterpillar into the beautiful Butterfly!

This too, is the Plan and the Destiny for us all. But it is a mistake to think that ANY kind of outward ritual, or repetitive observance, can force this to occur. We cannot simply WISH our way into and through the Transfiguration. Nor can we send away through a mail-order company, or train at University, even join some kind of special school, and expect a guarantee that in 6 to 8 weeks, we too can receive the Transfiguration. This is not what "destined" means. Rather, it means that in time, with regular, disciplined practice, the Transfiguration of every man and woman upon the planet is inevitable. It is Promised, the True Covenant of God with His Children - made not simply between the Hebrew tribal god `Jehovah' and a select subset or one small portion of Humanity, but between the One MOST HIGH God and all men and women. Any other rendering of this Covenant is a complete misunderstanding of our true relationship to God. It would be better to forget the misinterpretation of Old Testament history, than preserve the confusion that has resulted and frightened so many innocent & fretful believers in the past 3 millennia ...

Penguin, I think the advice that folks are giving you here is SOUND. The best thing we can do to ease our relationship with God, and advance ourself LIGHT YEARS upon the Spiritual Path ... is to remember that God is a LOVING GOD, First and Foremost. God is NOT a God of anger or wrath. This is a travesty of everything that Christ taught, and it is a tragedy that such notions have prevailed to the present day. It is not GOD who punishes us, rather, it is each one of us who FORCES the balancing effects of the LAW OF KARMA ... in every instance when we transgress the Laws of Being.

And Christ taught this. He called it `Cause and Effect,' and He tried to get the disciples to understand that people suffer NOT because some kind of wrathful God is sitting up there on a throne, ready to strike down the disbeliever and the person who dares to steal, kill, or lose his temper with another. Christ showed His followers that it was they themselves who, being ignorant of the Laws of Nature, were simply invoking the default Path of Learning - which requires that we UNDERSTAND how our thoughts, emotions, and actions affect those around us. If we are wise, and have insight & compassion, we will not harm one another. But where we do not understand our connections with our brothers & sisters, or where we try to ignore our interconnectedness, the Law of Cause & Effect simply has its natural repercussions. To strike another person is to invoke Karma, automatically. There is no `angry god' reaching back to smack us in the face. Rather, God is a LOVING GOD, and all He has to do is "sit back and watch," so to speak, because He knows - that WE WILL LEARN.

And believe it or not, even if you don't ASK for forgiveness, you have ALREADY received it. Don't EVER let another person tell you otherwise. And don't be so hard on yourself. Forgiving oneself is perhaps the MOST difficult thing you can ever attempt - far, far more difficult even than forgiving your worst enemy. But it is NECESSARY, and because many people simply cannot bear to imagine doing so (I have struggled with this all my life), they externalize the conflict, and IMAGINE a god who is waiting around for us to BEG and seek forgiveness. All the while, it is really YOU. And once we learn how to do this, life will go much smoother. But don't worry - God really isn't the issue here. Forgiveness from God is automatic, but this doesn't mean we are entitled to do whatever we wish, or act without responsibility.

THAT's the lesson we're supposed to be learning all along. RESPONSIBILITY for our own actions. Sadly, many people will never actually accept or face this, even as adults. Thus people sue one another, blame one another constantly, and continue to behave as paranoid, angry, unforgiving monsters ... so IS IT ANY WONDER that the same people who hate their neighbors (for wearing turbans maybe?), have only managed to imagine a God who is just an overgrown, stubborn projection of their subconscious? In our GREATEST moments as Human beings, we ourselves demonstrate the Love of Christ (and of God) for one another. We forgive, even as God does - WITHOUT even being asked, but instead, FREELY and openly. Gandhi could do this, even as he lay dying after being shot. And if I know the heart of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., I am certain that he did too - whether or not this is recorded, or was uttered by the man. It doesn't matter. People CAN DO what Christ indicated, and they DO demonstrate this, every day, in every country, often in situations where religion really has nothing to do with it!

But our struggles to understand God, and have a meaningful relationship with God - through Christ Jesus or otherwise - will continue, so long as we cannot shake ourselves free of all the pettiness of our human limitations, and the childishness which GROWN MEN engage in, every day, in the courtrooms, in the proceedings of Congress and Parliament, and yes, even in the churches themselves - where we are supposed to HONOR God, yet where some men lust, and others covet, and others show that pride is actually far closer to their hearts, than God.

Sometimes I wonder, if Jesus walked into one of the great cathedrals - beautiful yes, and truly MARVELS of medieval architecture - but if Jesus walked in, just exactly WITH WHOM would he identify??? Would it be the Priests, Cardinals and Bishops, with all their show & pageantry, their spotless flowing robes and adornments. Would he be drawn to the gold candlesticks, and smile to see how his NAME has been sewn to banners, and the cross affixed to seals, and stamped on every hymnal? Would Christ make a motion with his hand, and dismiss the lecturer from the pulpit ... and stride boldly up to tell us how it really is, firsthand?

Or would not Jesus simply find his way quietly and unnoticed to the pew in the rear of the church, where an old woman was kneeling in prayer, and kneel down beside her. Would he even dare to distract her, or interrupt? Would he not join her in prayer, and in all humility, prove that not a soul in that marvellous church was half as close to him in their heart - as this woman in the back, who would not even presume to draw closer ... for fear that she might be lost amidst the distractions around her.

And Penguin, I assure you, Jesus cares not one whit whether this woman was baptized or not, whether was dunked or sprinkled, nor what kind of cross she wears, or even whether she visits this church twice a day or twice a year. He does care what is in her heart on a regular basis, how often she thinks of others, and how often she is willing to sacrifice a comfort, or an afternoon, for the sake of someone else ... and just how much her life has been an effort to serve others and to thereby Glorify the Lord Our God. That is all he cares about - and ON SUCH BASIS shall HER life be judged, and so too shall God judge the rest of the souls IN this imaginary church, in every church, and EVERYWHERE in the world.

Religion is a potentially powerful tool both for Humanity and for God. But it can also be a closed door, both for Humanity and for God. The door, and the key are one and the same - the Human Heart. Whoever and whatever helps us to acknowledge this, and so turn the key, is GOOD. What gets in the way, is simply something to be overcome ... perhaps a bad habit, or an unhelpful acquaintance. So if we find inspiration in the Bible, or in being Baptized - then that is good. FIRST we must recognize the truth in this ... then we can speak of absolutes, or standards. But to deny this simplicity, and rush to argue absolutes, is to ignore the relationship that we already have with God, and with Christ.

Apologies for rambling ... 'tis but my tuppence of the day.

Love and Light,

taijasi

 

[RubySera_Martin]

Penguin,

I don't think I have anything new to add to this conversation. Each of us has to find their own path. There are so many forms of Christian expression that one basically has to find their own path. It can be really confusing. I think the Bible has been given so much thought over the past two thousand years that every bit of wisdom and knowledge must have been wrung from it at some time or another. Yet everyone who speaks for or about it uses slightly different words because no two people are exactly alike. Sometimes this is helpful. With that in mind, I will go through your questions and see what I can make of them. It will be up to you to find what is meaningful for you personally.

Hi all,
Many thanks for your replies to my post. I'm having a good and interesting time educating myself on Christianity although it is hard going sometimes. There are a few things I would like clarification on if possible. If I think negative or harmful thoughts about somebody then surely god will know and it will go against me when my time comes.

This is how I was taught to believe. There is a verse somewhere in the New Testament (NT) about us having to give account to God of every word and thought we had. Paul wrote something on the Word of God being a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart. It seems our thoughts are important.

I still don't understand where to find all the prophecies that the bible has correctly predicted.

This depends a great deal on what you consider a fulfilled prophecy and what you consider a prophecy to begin with. On this site people have told me that Jesus was prophecying about something that happened in 1914. I was raised on the Bible and with church every Sunday. I was not taught to see these specific things as prophecy. Apparently some people were.

If you have a Bible with good cross-referencing, you can find the Old Testament (OT) prophecies the NT talks about. Often there is reference to what "was said of old," or what "is written," etc. Those are references to OT prophecies. It remains an open question (in some circles; others don't question) whether or not the OT prophecies were actually meant to be taken as the NT writers took them. I think in the past several decades there has been considerable conversation between mainstream Christian theologians and Jewish rabis concerning some of this. The idea would be that the Jewish rabis are in the best position of anyone alive today to know what was meant by the OT writings.

A thing which really does fuel me is that the bible exists in the first place!

Was this idea planted by the evangelical pastor? I ask because many Christians feel this way. But yes, not many writings of such ancient times survived.

There were prophets before and after jesus and nothing was written about them once they had died so why was jesus different?

Again I would ask: Is this your personal conviction based on reading the Bible? Or is it something the pastor told you? I consider it another of Christianity's selling points. And these selling points, in my opinion, are exploited by evangelicals--somtimes very creatively and effectively--at every turn.

Here's my guess re the situation: It so happened that stuff got written down about Jesus. Or perhaps there was a tradition that got written down. Perhaps Christianity was only one of many new religious movements around at the time. I once asked a Christian prof whether he thinks Jesus existed. He answered, "We know that in the middle of the first century there was a community that believed Jesus existed." What little evidence we have suggests that this is probably an undeniable fact. This is the basis in which I view Christianity.

He was worth writing about and following. Something big happened and he made a massive impact and still does today and this speaks for itself I think. In jesus's time after a prophet had been put to death I can't see the romans & jews saying "oh dear, I think we may have killed the son of god, we made a mistake" or similar words to this depending on what the prophet claimed he was. The condemed would just have been forgotten about very quickly, but jesus wasn't and this to me along with other factors means he was the annointed one maybe.

If we look at the prophets the Bible does tell us about, we see that none of them was accepted by the people at large. Perhaps Moses was, but he also encountered serious opposition from powerful people. Jesus was not the only prophet who was killed. Nor was he the only prophet about whom claims were made that he worked miracles after his death. I think it was Elijah's bones or some other very famous prophet, that supposedly revived dead people. Even the resurrection is not unique to the Jesus story. It may be unique to Jesus in the biblical account, but not in the literature (novels, plays, etc.) of the time. Google for an article by the title "The Passing of Peregrinus" for another example.

According to the NT account, the centurion in charge of the crucifixion did acknowledge that "Surely this was the son of God." I question the truth of this account but the account exists.

It's one of the issues I am struggling with and convincing myself he was the son of god is not easy.

I really like what Taijasi wrote on this: We are all children of God. That Jesus was the literal flesh and bones (biological in the physical sense) son of God is open for debate. Not all Christians accept this as a literal physical fact. Some Christians make this belief a test of faith. Sometimes they will not acknowledge the others as Christians.

Some days I think he was and others I don't after reading various works by top scholars on the gospels, resurrection etc and working things out for myself.

You can probably find "top scholars" for every position ever taken on Christianity. This is why I say you will have to find your own path.

After the resurrection when people saw jesus and reported he was alive again then why didn't the authorities round up the remaining disciples & everybody connected with jesus and put them to death? as in a way they were still carrying on his teachings and supporting him. Surely it would have been dangerous to leave his hardened supporters to roam free and still claim he was the son of god and offend the temples etc. Did the disciples disappear once jesus had died? did the romans realise they had made a mistake and let them be? did they just keep quiet and not believe in what jesus had shown them? Which of these, if any, is correct?

Why did the Jesus movement survive if Jesus was such a dangerous person? Very good questions. I've never thought of things from this perspective. I'm scratching my brain for a guess at what might have been the case. If we go by the NT account, it can be argued that the Romans didn't have a serious problem with Jesus; it was the Jews who wanted him dead. I think this is the reason for the slaughter of Jews by Hitler--everybody hated the Jews because they killed Jesus. My personal opinion on the matter is that it is the height of absurdity to hate the decendents of somebody who killed your religious hero or ancestors but I, too, find myself struggling with this. In my case, it's the Catholics. They persecuted my Anabaptist forebears four hundred years ago. I have consciously worked to eliminate this prejudice but it's very difficult. It becomes part of everyday speech while one is growing up and as a result becomes part of one's own psychological structure or world view.

But, in answer to why the Romans didn't do away with the whole Jesus movement, it makes sense in my mind to think that they didn't see Jesus as terribly dangerous. It also makes sense in my mind to think that the whole thing is a sacred myth by which many people find meaning for life.

If I have accepted I am a sinner, then I am a sinner! It's plain and simple and I will be for the high jump. I can see why in a way a pastor would say "if you don't get baptised then it's hard for you to make progress to god and jesus and you have to give yourself completely" "you will not go to heaven" which was said to me and in a pleasant way I might add. For instance, somebody who has never believed has a barrel of a gun placed to their forehead and will have their head blown off, the first thing that person may do is start to prey and soil their pants. So, although this person has never believed in god/jesus at all, (they could even be an atheist) once the trigger is pulled automatically they get into heaven because they have prayed for 10 seconds prior to death?

That is the way it's supposed to work, according to some Christian thought. Not all Christians put so much emphasis on conversion. Or on the sinner's prayer. In my mind, this kind of thing is the same as magic. You say the formula, supernatural things happen.

I think one would have to demonstrate a belief throughout one's life to qualify and not just for a casual situation when its crops up.

I believe that true Christianity is a way of life, a way of thinking and seeing the world. This is deeper than just saying a certain prayer. I rather doubt that any serious Christians would consider the sinner's prayer so superficially, but sometimes it looks as though they do.

You don't get something for nothing at anything in life and surely you have to give yourself to god and jesus and prove your "worth" so they will be gracious to you at your time of death

This is where the evangelical pastor would probably disagree with you big time. This is the BIG selling point of evangelical Christianity--you have to do absolutely NOTHING. Not one thing you can do in your whole life will earn you even the tiniest bit of credit with God. Doing=law. Acceptance without doing=grace.

I am studying at a Lutheran seminary and sometimes I get the impression that the entire Lutheran church is built on this concept. But I think some parts of evangelical Christianity blow it out of proportion. It appears to me like the Lutherans I know have a more balanced view of the situation. We are responsible for our actions and behaviour. A mature person will produce mature behaviour. As you probably know, "mature" has little to do with one's actual age.

and to enjoy the pleasant state of blackness & peace (we have all experienced it already, the blackness before your first childhood memories, the nothingness) Could this be heaven? This is why I will get baptised if I go "all the way" as I want them to know I have believed fully and maybe I will have peace. Alternatively, I will be sent to hell and reborn on earth again to enter the circle of life here. Who knows!

I think you are mixing Christian and Buddhist thought here. The idea of being physically reborn has been considered a very serious heresy by othodox Christianity for most of its history. There is a verse in the NT to the effect: It is given to humans once to die, and thereafter the judgment. There is no second chance, no second life. Nor did the human exist before physical conception/birth. Belief varies as to the exact moment when human life begins. That is othodox/traditional Christian belief. Hell is believed to be a permanent state. So is heaven.

You say "and maybe I will have peace." I take it you do not feel peace at the moment. Frankly, I found peace when I left organized religion. I personally do not believe that peace can be found outside of oneself. I had to find it inside. I know from personal experience that this can be devasting information when there is nothing inside from which to get peace. Feel free to contact me for more personal discussion, if you so wish.

 

[Penguin]

Quotes from Taijasi's post.
”And without a doubt, there have been since Jesus' time those who have done just that! There have been great healers, messengers (prophets), and world servers (disciples), unto the present day - many of them being well-known in just this past century. “ True, but none of them were put to death for claiming to be the Messiah or claiming to be gods word etc.

”So the idea that Jesus of Nazareth was totally unique, or an exception to the rule, is not true at all. What is true, is that He represented a state of accomplishment and spiritual development far, far ahead of where the masses of Humanity now stand. But what He Himself accomplished is not unattainable, for Jesus told us that we too, would one day attain and minister, even greater than Jesus Himself!!! “True in a way but if I cultivated myself spiritually to a point it would still be impossible for me, for instance, to spit in a blind mans face and heal him instantly. This “ability” is unique like the other examples of Jesus healing, nobody else has been able to demonstrate this.

”Some people use the word `Saints' to refer to those who have attained, and who have come to a greater measure of Christhood than the masses. In the East, especially in Buddhism and Hinduism, these men and women are called Rishis, Aryas, Lamas, Rimpoches, and so forth. But they are not unique any more than Christ Jesus was, except in that they have accomplished ahead of the rest of us what is destined for ALL. And they have chosen, like Jesus of Nazareth, to remain here on Earth for awhile - to help others to accelerate their spiritual growth, since the planet is going through a crisis right now.” They haven’t and won’t be put to death for what they have or will try to achieve in their lives. Jesus instigated Christianity didn’t he?, the above examples are promoting faith, carrying it on or whatever you want to call it.

”The third reason, however, begins to get at the metaphysics of the matter - and addresses the question of Christ's true Nature, his Spiritual significance, both unto itself, and in relation to the rest of Humanity. And though I've said that He is not unique, save that He reached the goal ahead of us, there IS something about Christ's accomplishment(s) that I think every Christian inwardly recognizes, as well as many people who do not even call themselves Christian, and remain skeptical. Even the most detached & scientific of observers and historians cannot but help become intrigued as s/he studies the life and Teachings of this man, Jesus of Nazareth. And the reason, I suggest, is what He symbolized. ” He symbolized god’s love?

”Even more than just symbolized, I mean what Christ embodied for us - and this goes far beyond the word itself, `Christ' meaning annointed, just as Messias does. Annointed with what??? With OIL, or with WATER, from some kind of Initiation ritual, some ceremony, in accordance with tradition? No, I think that this too, is part of the symbolism, preserved today through the Baptismal rites (a Sacrament, or Consecration) in most churches. Certainly this is about purification, but so what? Even as we ourselves become purified - in thought, emotion (desire), and action - does this make us a Christ?” Am I wrong in thinking that anointed one means the Messiah” or chosen one to spread the word of god. If being Christened or Baptised is unimportant then why was Jesus Baptised in the river Jordan? Why did he feel the need to have it done as he was already pure and came from god in the first place?

”Penguin, I think the advice that folks are giving you here is SOUND. The best thing we can do to ease our relationship with God, and advance ourself LIGHT YEARS upon the Spiritual Path ... is to remember that God is a LOVING GOD, First and Foremost. God is NOT a God of anger or wrath. This is a travesty of everything that Christ taught, and it is a tragedy that such notions have prevailed to the present day. It is not GOD who punishes us, rather, it is each one of us who FORCES the balancing effects of the LAW OF KARMA ... in every instance when we transgress the Laws of Being.” If god is a god of love, then for example, (it’s the only one I have sort of read) why did he take Job’s wife and children away from him to test his faith to god?

”And believe it or not, even if you don't ASK for forgiveness, you have ALREADY received it. Don't EVER let another person tell you otherwise. And don't be so hard on yourself. Forgiving oneself is perhaps the MOST difficult thing you can ever attempt - far, far more difficult even than forgiving your worst enemy. But it is NECESSARY, and because many people simply cannot bear to imagine doing so (I have struggled with this all my life), they externalize the conflict, and IMAGINE a god who is waiting around for us to BEG and seek forgiveness. All the while, it is really YOU. And once we learn how to do this, life will go much smoother. But don't worry - God really isn't the issue here. Forgiveness from God is automatic, but this doesn't mean we are entitled to do whatever we wish, or act without responsibility.” I find this really hard to understand, sorry. So would somebody like Hitler or Stalin be forgiven instantly for the carnage they inflicted on the human race. The cold blooded murder of millions is something god would say “oh well, they will learn one day” and the killingcontinues mercilessly?

”And Penguin, I assure you, Jesus cares not one whit whether this woman was baptized or not, whether was dunked or sprinkled” Again, why did Jesus think it was important to get baptised in the river Jordan?

”Religion is a potentially powerful tool both for Humanity and for God. But it can also be a closed door, both for Humanity and for God. The door, and the key are one and the same - the Human Heart. Whoever and whatever helps us to acknowledge this, and so turn the key, is GOOD. What gets in the way, is simply something to be overcome ... perhaps a bad habit, or an unhelpful acquaintance. So if we find inspiration in the Bible, or in being Baptized - then that is good. FIRST we must recognize the truth in this ... then we can speak of absolutes, or standards. But to deny this simplicity, and rush to argue absolutes, is to ignore the relationship that we already have with God, and with Christ.” Beautiful words indeed.

I thank you for taking the time to respond to my post, and indeed the enlightening response you gave in the post itself was great. It will take me a few repeated reads to digest it fully, I’m a bit slow! However there are many beautiful and inspirational words there. It is very nice reading indeed, thanks again.

 

[Penguin]

Quote:
A thing which really does fuel me is that the bible exists in the first place!



Quote rubysera martin:- ”Was this idea planted by the evangelical pastor? I ask because many Christians feel this way. But yes, not many writings of such ancient times survived.”
No, this is my own thoughts on the subject. Fragments from the bible going back to AD40 (so it is stated) is just amazing. Out of all the ancient documents that must have been painstakingly hand written it seems the bible has proven to be the most precious in the way it’s been carried down through time. Why?
Quote:
There were prophets before and after jesus and nothing was written about them once they had died so why was jesus different?



Quote rubysera martin:-”Again I would ask: Is this your personal conviction based on reading the Bible? Or is it something the pastor told you? I consider it another of Christianity's selling points. And these selling points, in my opinion, are exploited by evangelicals--somtimes very creatively and effectively--at every turn.”
This is my conviction on what I have read from the bible and about Christianity as a whole. Through the mists of time, as has already been said by Taijasi in a way, there has been numerous prophets and still is today, true. The difference is that none of these has claimed to be the Messiah or word of god and then given themselves to face execution to release us from our sins etc. This is what segregates jesus from past and present prophets, there is no comparison in my opinion.

Quote rubysera martin:-”Here's my guess re the situation: It so happened that stuff got written down about Jesus. Or perhaps there was a tradition that got written down. Perhaps Christianity was only one of many new religious movements around at the time. I once asked a Christian prof whether he thinks Jesus existed. He answered, "We know that in the middle of the first century there was a community that believed Jesus existed." What little evidence we have suggests that this is probably an undeniable fact. This is the basis in which I view Christianity.”
For a tradition to embed itself into a society it has to stem from something. Jesus must have initiated Christianity for it to exist in the first place and grow. Tradition can’t just appear fresh one morning and super seed everything else and just be written down, it has to initiate from somebody or something. I can’t believe that his words and works were written at the time and somebody was running around where ever he went with a feather and papyrus jotting things down.
Quote:
Some days I think he was and others I don't after reading various works by top scholars on the gospels, resurrection etc and working things out for myself.


Quote rubysera martin:-”You can probably find "top scholars" for every position ever taken on Christianity. This is why I say you will have to find your own path.” Wise words indeed!
Quote:
After the resurrection when people saw jesus and reported he was alive again then why didn't the authorities round up the remaining disciples & everybody connected with jesus and put them to death? as in a way they were still carrying on his teachings and supporting him. Surely it would have been dangerous to leave his hardened supporters to roam free and still claim he was the son of god and offend the temples etc. Did the disciples disappear once jesus had died? did the romans realise they had made a mistake and let them be? did they just keep quiet and not believe in what jesus had shown them? Which of these, if any, is correct?


Quote rubysera martin:-”Why did the Jesus movement survive if Jesus was such a dangerous person?” Anybody else got any suggestions for this question?

Quote:
You don't get something for nothing at anything in life and surely you have to give yourself to god and jesus and prove your "worth" so they will be gracious to you at your time of death


Quote rubysera martin:-”I am studying at a Lutheran seminary and sometimes I get the impression that the entire Lutheran church is built on this concept. But I think some parts of evangelical Christianity blow it out of proportion. It appears to me like the Lutherans I know have a more balanced view of the situation. We are responsible for our actions and behaviour. A mature person will produce mature behaviour. As you probably know, "mature" has little to do with one's actual age.” Sorry what is a Lutheran seminary?
Quote:
and to enjoy the pleasant state of blackness & peace (we have all experienced it already, the blackness before your first childhood memories, the nothingness) Could this be heaven? This is why I will get baptised if I go "all the way" as I want them to know I have believed fully and maybe I will have peace. Alternatively, I will be sent to hell and reborn on earth again to enter the circle of life here. Who knows!


Quote rubysera martin:-”I think you are mixing Christian and Buddhist thought here” Why not? Who knows that this wouldn’t be true? We have come into existence from nothing and once we are existing we have to go back to nothing, and that is what scares people about death. The brain is at a level of development that it is ready to experience going back to nothing fully, unlike before, when the brain is just evolving and one can’t remember back before the first child hood memoies.

Quote rubysera martin:-”You say "and maybe I will have peace." I take it you do not feel peace at the moment”. I feel a bit lost spiritually at the moment. Like being in a big sweet shop and you know you need to eat one but can’t make your mind up which sweet to grab. Also I was really meaning peace after death.

Quote rubysera martin:- “Frankly, I found peace when I left organized religion.”Not all are this diverse, don’t judge them all but one bad experience!

Quote rubysera martin:- “I personally do not believe that peace can be found outside of oneself. I had to find it inside. I know from personal experience that this can be devasting information when there is nothing inside from which to get peace.” That is so true!

Thanks for your response to my post.

 

[taijasi]

Quotes from Taijasi's post.
”And without a doubt, there have been since Jesus' time those who have done just that! There have been great healers, messengers (prophets), and world servers (disciples), unto the present day - many of them being well-known in just this past century. “ True, but none of them were put to death for claiming to be the Messiah or claiming to be gods word etc. Actually, Penguin, history is full of examples of precisely this!

”So the idea that Jesus of Nazareth was totally unique, or an exception to the rule, is not true at all. What is true, is that He represented a state of accomplishment and spiritual development far, far ahead of where the masses of Humanity now stand. But what He Himself accomplished is not unattainable, for Jesus told us that we too, would one day attain and minister, even greater than Jesus Himself!!! “True in a way but if I cultivated myself spiritually to a point it would still be impossible for me, for instance, to spit in a blind mans face and heal him instantly. This “ability” is unique like the other examples of Jesus healing, nobody else has been able to demonstrate this. I disagree with the former. As to the latter, don't be so sure ...

”Some people use the word `Saints' to refer to those who have attained, and who have come to a greater measure of Christhood than the masses. In the East, especially in Buddhism and Hinduism, these men and women are called Rishis, Aryas, Lamas, Rimpoches, and so forth. But they are not unique any more than Christ Jesus was, except in that they have accomplished ahead of the rest of us what is destined for ALL. And they have chosen, like Jesus of Nazareth, to remain here on Earth for awhile - to help others to accelerate their spiritual growth, since the planet is going through a crisis right now.” They haven’t and won’t be put to death for what they have or will try to achieve in their lives. Jesus instigated Christianity didn’t he?, the above examples are promoting faith, carrying it on or whatever you want to call it. Again, certainly Humanity has always crucified its Saviours. Jesus wasn't the first, and he wasn't the last.

”The third reason, however, begins to get at the metaphysics of the matter - and addresses the question of Christ's true Nature, his Spiritual significance, both unto itself, and in relation to the rest of Humanity. ... And the reason, I suggest, is what He symbolized. ” He symbolized god’s love? Bingo!

”Even more than just symbolized, I mean what Christ embodied for us - and this goes far beyond the word itself, `Christ' meaning annointed, just as Messias does. Annointed with what??? With OIL, or with WATER, from some kind of Initiation ritual, some ceremony, in accordance with tradition? No, I think that this too, is part of the symbolism, preserved today through the Baptismal rites (a Sacrament, or Consecration) in most churches. Certainly this is about purification, but so what? Even as we ourselves become purified - in thought, emotion (desire), and action - does this make us a Christ?” Am I wrong in thinking that anointed one means the Messiah” or chosen one to spread the word of god. If being Christened or Baptised is unimportant then why was Jesus Baptised in the river Jordan? Why did he feel the need to have it done as he was already pure and came from god in the first place? The reason it was necessary was to demonstrate that John's Mission was in concert with his own - which fact, sadly, scholars have still failed to grasp!!! Jesus did not need to visit John the Baptizer for his own sake ... he did this, in part, for John's sake!

But more than that, He was emphasizing the importance of Purification, which is what Baptism has always been symbolic of ... certainly among the Essenes, and also in every Mystery Tradition. It marks the 2nd of the 5 (or 6) Great Initiations, the milestones of progress on the Spiritual Path. More can be found here, on the 2nd & 3rd Initiations (Baptism & Transfiguration, respectively).

”Penguin, I think the advice that folks are giving you here is SOUND. The best thing we can do to ease our relationship with God, and advance ourself LIGHT YEARS upon the Spiritual Path ... is to remember that God is a LOVING GOD, First and Foremost. God is NOT a God of anger or wrath. This is a travesty of everything that Christ taught, and it is a tragedy that such notions have prevailed to the present day. It is not GOD who punishes us, rather, it is each one of us who FORCES the balancing effects of the LAW OF KARMA ... in every instance when we transgress the Laws of Being.” If god is a god of love, then for example, (it’s the only one I have sort of read) why did he take Job’s wife and children away from him to test his faith to god? The test of Job's faith, as most Christians refer to it, is not an episode I'm familiar with - at least, not from an esoteric perspective. Others may be able to comment ... but I'd have to research this, and contemplate it. But I will do this ....

”And believe it or not, even if you don't ASK for forgiveness, you have ALREADY received it. ... Forgiveness from God is automatic, but this doesn't mean we are entitled to do whatever we wish, or act without responsibility.” I find this really hard to understand, sorry. So would somebody like Hitler or Stalin be forgiven instantly for the carnage they inflicted on the human race. The cold blooded murder of millions is something god would say “oh well, they will learn one day” and the killingcontinues mercilessly? Why be forgiven? Because God is a Loving God, not the judgmental dotard that he gets made out to be by so many misguided people.

Yes, murder is wrong - whether we kill one or one million. No one escapes the effects of the Law of Karma - action begets action, unfailingly. A Hitler and a Judas must answer for their transgressions. But if you think that ONE MAN was responsible for the horrors of Nazi Germany, or Stalinist Russia, think again. There are evil avatars (incarnations of various evil principles, just as Christ incarnated Perfect, Compassionate Love) ... but it is Human KARMA which facilitates their operation. Technically, Humanity has been spared, and the sure, swift hand of Planetary Karma has been staid several times - most recently, during the Second World War, when God's Plan was damn nearly diverted ... even worse than in Atlantean times (the `Flood'). And of course, Atlantis was a catastrophe, but again - Divine Intervention (for lack of a better term) facilitated our survival.

Part of the difference in our understanding will arise from the fact that - while I do believe in Deity as an Individual Presence (vastly beyond anything we have ever imagined, of course) - I also believe that God looks upon the world with utmost Compassion, but does NOT intervene. This does not mean that God is cold or uncaring. It is precisely because He has INFINITE Mercy and Compassion that He DOES remain impersonal. But Karmic Law does not depend in the slightest upon the being Christians call `God.' Instead, it just IS. It is just "how things work." And that 's a good thing, because it means God doesn't have to keep fiddling with things to make them work out right. Such a notion of Deity, as I see it, is childish and absurd. Not only does it insult our intelligence, it insults God's!

Indeed, God doesn't have to keep tinkering with the world (Universe, etc.) to "get things right" - NOT EVEN to fix Humanity's errors. God's no fool. Things are forseen QUITE a bit better than most people give God credit for. This is not Predistination. It simply means that there are literally billions of possibilities for how things will work out. WE choose how well they do so, how much or how little suffering will be entailed, how quickly or slowly it happens, how many people we must inconvenience along the way to pursue our own selfish happiness ... as well as how soon we will all actually grow up and start ACTING like we actually care for each other, for this planet we live on, etc. As a matter of fact, God has very little to do with it!!!

Not that it has to be that way. I fully expect there to be much more cooperation between Humanity and the Spiritual Kingdoms ... someday. But it takes a bit more growing before most of us are ready for that Baptism which Christ symbolized, or the Transfiguration which enables us to begin to first enter into God's true Presence - and behold Him face to face. Still, we will be there one day, each & all.

”And Penguin, I assure you, Jesus cares not one whit whether this woman was baptized or not, whether was dunked or sprinkled” Again, why did Jesus think it was important to get baptised in the river Jordan? The Birth at Bethlehem marks the 1st Initiation, entrance into the Spiritual Kingdom - in some measure - in our outward, physical consciousness. Before this, we Aspire. LONG years, and usually several lifetimes go by, before we have thoroughly purified our thoughts, words, and deeds - or our entire personality nature (our "lower self"). Jesus showed this in symbol by the thirty years which passed between his Birth and Baptism.

But notice that the 3rd Initiation, or Transfiguration, occurred soon after, as did the Renunciation (or Crucifixion). These are the mark of an Advanced Initiate. And I know , and have known, several. St. Paul, himself, after his conversion, was of the same spiritual standing as Jesus of Nazareth. CHRIST, however, was another being entirely - Jesus' spiritual TEACHER, whom he visited prior to his ministry, in many years of preparation for his Mission. And I would submit that as you see the DOVE descending in the artistic depictions of the Baptism, that is NOT actually the "Holy Spirit." It is CHRIST. THE Christ, Jesus' own Master, and the true Teacher of the Apostles, as well as the HEART of Christianity. Not every Christian is willing to accept that Jesus of Nazareth was a high Initiate, and that the Christ was an Initiate and Teacher of far higher standing. For even the man Jesus remains a Mystery, an enigma. How much greater then, will be the significance and our inability to grasp the importance or nature of the Highest Initiations!

While Jesus of Nazareth passed through 4th Initiation during the Crucifixion (as did St. Paul some years later) ... Christ Himself, the Eldest among Brethren, became a 6th, and immediately also a 7th Degree Initiate. But this was NOT what His Mission was about. MILLIONS of people are 1st degree initiates. This was not so 2000 years ago, but the number was already very large. Forget 144,000 - this is purely symbolic. Today, there are many, many thousands who approach the 2nd & 3rd Initiations - and this is of immense significance, because it means that all the Earth is becoming gradually transformed ... "spiritualized," if you will. Christ came to show the way 2000 years ago, by pointing to the 2nd & 3rd Initiations that lie ahead of us all. And many of the seeds he sowed in Palestine, among the faithful & the attentive, are even now just beginning to be spiritually reaped! ALL who knew Him then are being given the opportunity now to serve. And His Teachers are in every land!

So Christ came to symbolize for us, in His very life, the 5 Initiations, or major mileposts, in our Spiritual life. In time, all people will pass those mileposts. Not for LONG ages will all of Humanity attain - but for even just 10% to enter the spiritual Path means GREAT changes in the condition of life for ALL Beings. And THAT's the kind of thing God cares about - not some small handful of "chosen."

He cares about every single sick or poor human being, every sinner as much as every saint ... truly, the least among us! So why the Baptism? That the Glory of God would be revealed! And so it was ...

I thank you for taking the time to respond to my post, and indeed the enlightening response you gave in the post itself was great. It will take me a few repeated reads to digest it fully, I’m a bit slow! However there are many beautiful and inspirational words there. It is very nice reading indeed, thanks again. Thank you, especially for your patience ... since as you can see, I am not by any means what you call an "ordinary" Christian, or a person of conventional beliefs. Bah - I am hardly `Christian' at all, much of the time, but then, this is up to every individual ... and every day's a new day, a new opportunity.

Love and Light,

taijasi

 

[Penguin]

Dear Taijasi,

I will look and digest your responses fully. Great replies indeed, deep and meaningful and they will prove to be food for thought for me. It seems you have a small sprinkling of Buddhist theory mixed in?, as you talk about “karma” a lot and human action. I thought that jesus and god were to guide, or try and guide us, keep us from evil etc etc? Can I have some examples of prophets who have been put to death because they claimed they were the anointed one, son of god, messiah or whatever please. Just for my interest that’s all. Many thanks indeed again for your time and effort to produce your responses to my questions. Regards to you.