religious importance of Saudi Arabia or Iran
most Muslims would disagree. Geographically speaking yes, Saudi controls Mecca and Medina, but that is hardly a control of the population. Saudi holds little importance to me outside of a blockade from people looking to invade the Cities. Politically/Religiously most Muslims disagree with both Saudi and Iran.
I don't know if I can buy off on the Shai/Sunni conflict being as being ginned up by the media. Until America made the stupid mistake have destabilizing Iraq, I'd say 90% of us had no idea what a Shai or a Sunni was. That lack of understanding and failure to take the division seriously is what led that country into the hole it is in now. The politics of that part of the world seem to rotate around the binary struggle between Sunni and Shai, with Saudi Arabia and Iran acting as the focal points for each side. Many Sunni extremist groups really seem to go after the Shai pretty hard. Theory is one thing, but the proof is in the very bloody pudding.
I'd say we (US) messed up way before Iraq, but thats not really the point. In Iran, Shia is more common, but Sunni is acceptable. There is very little aggression. People outside of Islam like to see countries as capitals of religions outside of Christianity. Hindus, India; Sunni Muslim, Saudi Arabia; Shia Islam, Iran; Buddhism, China... etc. This isn't the case however. Hindus don't look to India to see what they should or shouldn't do/like. Same with Muslims, we have our own minds. There are those who follow blindly others, but a majority of us at least attempt to find references to right/wrong in Quranic References/Hadiths. There is a distrust between the 2 as most Sunnis consider Shias to be committing sin in their adoration of Ali, but very little violence actually goes on between the 2 outside of the occasional power struggle endemic to many underdeveloped countries.
I don't know about that either. Aren't nearly all of ISIS Muslim killings over the Sunni/Shai divide? Isn't the core of the long civil war in Syria this schism? Alawites are an offshoot of Shai, and Iran backs Assad. In 2013 there were 488 homicides in Chicago; that's a lot but I'd bet ISIS alone beat those numbers. I also don't think anyone in Chicago was ever put in a cage and lit on fire, had their throat slittings broadcast around the world as a recruitment tool, or made to dig their own graves, beg for mercy, then shot execution style. That's some straight up Nazi stuff right there and this sort of behavior isn't exclusive to ISIS.
You seem to be grabbing facts that aren't related to make your point. Or maybe you are that misinformed. This isn't meant to offend you, but it seems you are using highly biased "western" publications in your analysis. ISIS has killed many Muslims, that is true. If they were all or even majority killed from shias, this would make sense. I read somewhere that recent statistics showed 80% of their victims are Sunnis. 10% Shias, and the rest was summed up as "others" to include the Christians/Atheists/etc. This is debatable of course, but by and large the majority are Sunni, even though they claim to be Sunni. The distinction seems to be more focused on people who do not support ISIS/DAESH. They are much happier to kill anyone who doesn't want to join, leading many a strong countries (US, SA, Turkiye, Jordan, Russia, "Syria") to charge into attack them (at least from the air). Getting a statistic about number of Shias killed by Sunni for being Shia might be a difficult number to obtain, along with its opposite. I do know here in the US, I have met people from both that have prayed next to each other.
The last line, is true, only if you are not willing to change ISIS to Terrorists (which would include your list from earlier).
NO. We should not abrogate the Quran for the societal decisions of man.
Christianity and Judaism were able to get out of the violent phase Islam seems to be stuck in by letting some stuff slide.
And if followed correctly (as in what the Quran tells us and by living as Prophet Mouhammed (PBUH) told us to) Islam solved these issues already. No it isn't the secular, immoral, "free" society professed as "best" in the "West" (US/UK/ Europe/Canada/etc), as it is better than that. Better in short run, and long. Feel free to question any of what you think to be problems on my other thread "What's wrong with Islam". It is meant to explain the misconceptions and all these "Islam teaches...(something horrible)" posts, but can be used to discuss what someone feels to be unfair/wrong.
For all the Bible thumping we do in the US, it is usually a very relaxed version. No modern Protestant can conceiving of living as the Puritans did, or modern Catholics dreaming of a world wide Christendom.
OK I agree... the Christianity/Judaism of scripture is both harsh and unfair for many IMO. you won't hear me championing the principles.
Living your life by centuries old laws is just a bad idea. Humans change and we can't accept rules written before the industrial age as applicable for our lives. You can use it as a sort of psychologically helpful guideline, but any sort of literal interpretation applied to modern life is crazy.
as specified earlier. We can agree to disagree, or you can show me what is such a bad idea in Islam for modern times. There is a world of info i doubt you have explored about many a religion as old/older than Modern Islam (since Mouhammed (PBUH)).
Well, that's where the rubber hits the road isn't it? Muslims shouldn't be killing women and children. They shouldn't be killing eachother at all.
agree... and for a vast majority of us we don't.
They should respect People of the Book.
again for a vast majority we do... at least respect their beliefs, the actions of most are not so respectable.
They should stand up to bullies. It should be a religion of peace.
Agreed... again... most of us try...
That's a lot of empty shoulds and shouldn'ts.
your opinion... backed by media alone...
I'm just as hard on Christians about the hypocrisies they engage in; abortion should be illegal but guns, wars, and capital punishment are fine, the Prosperity Gospel that directly violates Jesus' message, treatment of the vulnerable, etc.
I doubt you are as critical... but I will reserve my judgement until it can be proven one way or the other. To be fair though... I agree with abortion being illegal for MOST cases. and I agree with Capital Punishment when appropriate... Wars are necessary at times, but should never be entered into aggressively... and Guns have nothing to do with religion. Jesus (PBUH) said (according to the Bible) for his apostles to sell what they had left to get swords (for a specific reason of course). Seems he approved of weapons for defense as well.
But when it comes to not having a performance record that matches the mission statement, Islam seems to win.
agree to disagree again... Christianity has a long history to make up for, and it hasn't completely gotten out of a violent escapade either.
The "West" (a vague term) broke the cycle of dogma fueled violence when we walked back from it a little and realized what we were doing. For centuries Europe was embroiled in bloody sectarian violence, and now they are largely secular countries.
secular =/= peaceful... or correct in God's eye necessarily...
This is just one random guy's opinion that doesn't mean squat, but if Islam wants to be a religion of peace it is going to need to get over its self.
I understand... all your opinion... I'm happy you recognize that, as I've had to explain to many a people that their opinion isn't universal truth.
Islam isn't the first religion that claims to have it all right, and won't be the last. That should really tell you something.
This seems to be something many a agnostic/doubtful Christian arguments go around. It is purely illogical assumption however as it doesn't address anything that would make it not right... in any measure. It certainly isn't the first, or the last to make the claim, but it is the only one that doesn't seem to find logic against it that I've found. Your argument, actually doesn't tell me, or anyone anything other than there is a statistical possibility it is wrong. I'm up for the challenge whenever anyone wants to profess any discrepancies you think there are in Quran, how many other religions can actually make that claim stick. If you said there are a lot of Muslims who don't follow correctly, I (and most Muslims) would agree. But proving it wrong, you've got a lot of work to do.