Things have Changed

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Cage

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I have posted here before, but with a completely different mindset. In my previous visit to this forum, I was concerned with the ethics of salvation, and then to 'why' blood sacrifice was demanded.

I've re-read the threads, and I am amazed at how much I have changed since my last visit.

Anyway, I've come to realize that I need to accept Jesus' sacrifice. I've come to realize that I cannot handle the consequences my sins entail.

Before, I simply tried to follow in Jesus' footsteps, but now want to know him as my Lord, and Savior. Recent developments have forced me to reconsider my previous stance...that I could/should pay for my own sins.

The truth is that I'm not strong enough to handle the burdens of my past. I thought I was strong enough, but after facing some real world trouble, I've realized the error of my thinking. I still think it is unfair for Jesus to pay for my sins, but I also know that I cannot handle my own.

I'm also not sure if I completely believe in the ressurection, and I have been told that in order to be saved, and granted the guidence of the Holy Spirit, I must believe in this.

What are your thought?

Is is possible to be saved, and given the Holy Spirit w/o being convicted in heart that a literal ressurection actually happened? Look, I can accept that Jesus' spirit was re-awakened somehow, but his body after 3 days of decay is another story.

Anxious to hear what you have to say...

Much Love,
 
I believe that God reveals Himself in nature, as this verse of Scripture says:

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of Him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made,
Even His eternal power and Godhead;
so they are without excuse:


​
Jesus taught from nature. We see death and resurrection around us all the time:

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die,
it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.


​
Is it any harder to believe that God spoke into existence the atoms that make up your present physical body, than it is to believe that He can speak and your body will rise again?

With regard to the "fairness" of Jesus taking your place: It was God's plan to put us in a world where sin was present so that we could make a free will choice to love and serve Him ... He didn't want any more angels!

God's justice demanded that sin be punished, so He had to make a way of escape. His love and mercy caused Him to come Himself to take our place. God made the laws, and God paid the penalty. All we have to do is accept it.

Blessings
 
We see death and ressurrection around us all the time?

You make the point of a corn of wheat dying and bringing forth fruit. This happens naturally, this is how nature works. This is how that corn of wheat was created. When we talk about the ressurrection of Jesus in a literal sense, we have a very un-natural thing happen.

God is God, and as powerful as he is, I believe he works within spirit, and natural law. It is immposible to die for three days, then be made alive again, and I don't think God would alter nature to make this happen. Natural law governs all reality, imo.

Did you see the show on the discovery channel the other day about the Exodus? The show made a very strong case for the story in scientific terms. It was suggested that the Exodus did in fact happen, and they showed exactly how through the workings of nature. It made sense out of a fairy tale like story.

I think this concept apply's to Jesus as well. (Natural law) Then again, if natural law apply's to Jesus, then his conception must of also been a product of something natural.

Anyway, I'm not trying to change minds here, I'm simply looking for an answer about being saved w/o believeing in a literal ressurrection. I know what the bible says, but I am not convinced it is entirely true...

In all honesty, before now, I wasn't so sure about the whole salvation thing, either. The virgin birth, and being concieved by the Holy Spirit are all hard to grasp.

I guess faith, and belief come easy for some; for others it is an up hill battle.

Much Love,
 
Nature is simply the creative action of God. We understand some of His physical laws, although not all of them. Scientists are still juggling the discrepancy between general relativity and quantum mechanics.

The atoms you are composed of are eternal - they came into existence billions of years ago at the Big Bang (when God said "Let there be ..."). When Jesus was resurrected, He told the disciples to feel His body of "flesh and bone". I do not know by what process God re-constituted the body of Jesus so that it could walk through a closed door, but for Him it was probably as simple as suspending the force of electromagnetism.

I think there is a continuum between the natural and the supernatural - the supernatural functions according to laws we do not yet understand, or only partially understand. Scientists studying String Theory are convinced there are extra dimensions beyond the four we currently know, and claim they can be proved mathematically.

I do not see the resurrection as un-natural, but as supernatural - which just means we do not understand the process by which it occured.

BTW, the corn of wheat was not my idea - Jesus said it first, and then Paul used it very well also (see 1 Corinthians 15:35-58)
 
kenod said:
Nature is simply the creative action of God. We understand some of His physical laws, although not all of them. Scientists are still juggling the discrepancy between general relativity and quantum mechanics.

The atoms you are composed of are eternal - they came into existence billions of years ago at the Big Bang (when God said "Let there be ..."). When Jesus was resurrected, He told the disciples to feel His body of "flesh and bone". I do not know by what process God re-constituted the body of Jesus so that it could walk through a closed door, but for Him it was probably as simple as suspending the force of electromagnetism.

I think there is a continuum between the natural and the supernatural - the supernatural functions according to laws we do not yet understand, or only partially understand. Scientists studying String Theory are convinced there are extra dimensions beyond the four we currently know, and claim they can be proved mathematically.

I do not see the resurrection as un-natural, but as supernatural - which just means we do not understand the process by which it occured.

BTW, the corn of wheat was not my idea - Jesus said it first, and then Paul used it very well also (see 1 Corinthians 15:35-58)
Click to expand...

When I think of natural, I think of the physical realm, and when I think of supernatural, I think of the spiritual realm. They co-exist, but are separate in nature. So if the ressurrection was a super natural event, then it was in spirit that Jesus was raised, and not in physical body.

(At least, this is how I see it)

Natural law, in my mind, is simply the governing aspects of creation put in place by God, by which all things are subject to. W/o law there is chaos, which is why natural law is always applicible in the natural realm. This is why I do not believe in a literal resurrection. On the same note, I don't think we can measure the supernatural/spiritual realm by scientific means, which is why we do not fully understand this aspect of reality.

(It makes sense to me)

Are you of the school of thought that in order to be saved you must accept the literal resurrection as truth?
 
Cage said:
Natural law, in my mind, is simply the governing aspects of creation put in place by God, by which all things are subject to.
Click to expand...
Ok just one question why if he is powerful enough to put the natural laws in place to start with, why would he not be powerful enough to bend or even break them if he needed too.
Remember the resurection would not be the first natural law he ever bent:).
 
It is the same God who created the natural world, who is also in control of the supernatural world. If we only believed what we understood, I would never get on an aeroplane. Even scientists are limited in their understanding of the laws that govern nature. And what are the natural laws that govern Love?

When Jesus was talking to Nicodemus (John 3) he said you must be born again. That is a supernatural event. Jesus referred to the wind, and said you can't see it but you experience its effects ... "so is everyone who is born of the Spirit".

You don't believe a list of things to be saved ... but when you are born again (saved) you believe.
 
Dor said:
Ok just one question why if he is powerful enough to put the natural laws in place to start with, why would he not be powerful enough to bend or even break them if he needed too.
Remember the resurection would not be the first natural law he ever bent:).
Click to expand...

I believe God opperates within his own design...
 
kenod said:
It is the same God who created the natural world, who is also in control of the supernatural world. If we only believed what we understood, I would never get on an aeroplane. Even scientists are limited in their understanding of the laws that govern nature. And what are the natural laws that govern Love?

When Jesus was talking to Nicodemus (John 3) he said you must be born again. That is a supernatural event. Jesus referred to the wind, and said you can't see it but you experience its effects ... "so is everyone who is born of the Spirit".

You don't believe a list of things to be saved ... but when you are born again (saved) you believe.
Click to expand...

We understand that a man cannot be physically raised to life after three days of decay; the spirit is another story, however.

Love is a spirit in and of itself, and can only be measured subjectively. Being born again is then also a subjective experience, as it too cannot be measured in any other manner but by personal experience. We know little about the natural laws that govern this realm of reality.

To be saved is something I truly desire, but according to most Christians, I must adhere to a certain criteria of beliefs before that can happen.

What ever happened to come as you are?

I believe in the saving grace of Jesus, I believe he was Gods son, and I desire a spiritual relationship with him, but I apparantly cannot have these things until I believe in something that has yet to be proven possible. According to most Christians ,it takes the Holy Spirit to change a mans heart, and if I must first believe, then it would seem that I am out of luck.

Just doesn't seem fair to me...

Much Love,
 
Hi Cage -

We understand that a man cannot be physically raised to life after three days of decay; the spirit is another story, however.

It is apparent in scripture that the Risen Christ did not appear precisely the same as the bloody wreck that was placed in the tomb. Mary Magdalene did not recognise him. His followers on the road to Emmaus did not recognise him. In fact, only John recognised him without first being spoken to.

That He walked in the flesh is true, but in this world the soul is subject to the body, whereas the body should be subject to its essence and principle of being, the soul. In Christ this 'inversion' is corrected, and so the soul has total mastery of the material form. Christ can appear, in the flesh, to whom He will, as He so choses - or He can choose, in the flesh, not to be seen...

Through the Resurrection 'all' shall be saved, humanity, the world, the cosmos ... not simply a portion, even if it be the higher part. If the resurrection is a purely 'spiritual' event, then we're back into duality, with a world that can remain fallen and lost ... God made the world and saw that it was good - and that man was very good - but man brought the world down around his ears.

Christ re-establishes the Divine Principle in the heart of everything, and by His physical Incarnation and Ressurection, in the heart of the material realm as much, and equally, as in the spiritual.

In time, everything will fulfill its potential to be good,
and God will be 'all in all'.

+++

A man goes to his spiritual director, and says "I believe in everything, except this one thing." His director says, "OK, then put that one thing to one side for the moment, and let's get on with it."

Sounds like sophistry? Perhaps. But the truth is, you work with what you know, and as you work, what you don't know reveals itself to you ... saints don't know everything ... but they have faith in what they do know.

That's what 'growing in faith' is all about.

In the Catholic Tradition we call it Mystagogia.

Pax,

Thomas
 
Welcome back Cage. ;)

I think you are in quite good hands here, as far as possibly getting your answers, well, answered!

I hope your journey continues to be revealing and enlightening for you.

v/r

Q
 
Thomas said:
Hi Cage -

We understand that a man cannot be physically raised to life after three days of decay; the spirit is another story, however.

It is apparent in scripture that the Risen Christ did not appear precisely the same as the bloody wreck that was placed in the tomb. Mary Magdalene did not recognise him. His followers on the road to Emmaus did not recognise him. In fact, only John recognised him without first being spoken to.

That He walked in the flesh is true, but in this world the soul is subject to the body, whereas the body should be subject to its essence and principle of being, the soul. In Christ this 'inversion' is corrected, and so the soul has total mastery of the material form. Christ can appear, in the flesh, to whom He will, as He so choses - or He can choose, in the flesh, not to be seen...

Through the Resurrection 'all' shall be saved, humanity, the world, the cosmos ... not simply a portion, even if it be the higher part. If the resurrection is a purely 'spiritual' event, then we're back into duality, with a world that can remain fallen and lost ... God made the world and saw that it was good - and that man was very good - but man brought the world down around his ears.

Christ re-establishes the Divine Principle in the heart of everything, and by His physical Incarnation and Ressurection, in the heart of the material realm as much, and equally, as in the spiritual.

In time, everything will fulfill its potential to be good,
and God will be 'all in all'.

+++

A man goes to his spiritual director, and says "I believe in everything, except this one thing." His director says, "OK, then put that one thing to one side for the moment, and let's get on with it."

Sounds like sophistry? Perhaps. But the truth is, you work with what you know, and as you work, what you don't know reveals itself to you ... saints don't know everything ... but they have faith in what they do know.

That's what 'growing in faith' is all about.

In the Catholic Tradition we call it Mystagogia.

Pax,

Thomas
Click to expand...

Hi Thomas,

I respect your views, and would never try to argue my own against them. For the time being, I fail to see truth in a literal ressurection. I have my reasons, and others have their own for believing what they do. There are many things in the Bible I have a hard time with, Thomas, and I guess that's just part of my own personal journey.

In the end, I feel that Love is the driving force behind the Christian walk. Although, it was fear that gave me the desire to be saved. Obviously, I do not walk in perfect Love, as it is written: "Perfect Love casteth out fear"

I have much to work on in this department, but I don't think God, or Jesus will allow me to do all the work on my own. I may never come to believe in a literal ressurection, but in my mind, that will not/should not stand in the way of Jesus coming into my life.

I am touched by his teachings, his sacrifice, and his message. I desire to follow him, and I believe he will honor my desire for forgiveness. Even w/o fully believing in the literal ressurection.

I don't think Jesus meant his sacrifice to be so exclusive. Why would he? He went through great pains to bring us life, and I truly believe he welcomes all who will accept his message of forgiveness, and Love.

I get discouraged when I am told I cannot recieve his gift w/o first adhering to a criteria of belief that contradicts the laws of nature. The very laws I believe God himself put in place.

Do you understand where I'm coming from?
 
Quahom1 said:
Welcome back Cage. ;)

I think you are in quite good hands here, as far as possibly getting your answers, well, answered!

I hope your journey continues to be revealing and enlightening for you.

v/r

Q
Click to expand...

Hi Quahom1,

It's good to be back, and I hope you're right about the answers I seek. I think I have come a long ways from where I was before...

Much Love,
 
Cage said:
Hi Quahom1,

It's good to be back, and I hope you're right about the answers I seek. I think I have come a long ways from where I was before...

Much Love,
Click to expand...

Time did not stand still while you were en absentia...I can assure you. ;)

I know I'm going to have my ass royally kicked for this, but I suggest in your search, you take a look at the Liberal Christianity forum in the Spirituality and Belief forum. There is a method to my madness...

You can find it: http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/liberal-christianity.html

I think it will help you, in your search for what you really want and need, in the long run...;)

What I hope is for you to have ultimately, is a relationship with Christ, that is personal, and trusting, like I have with Him...

Godspeed.

v/r

Q
 
for the rest of you who wonder WTF? I said there are those who can speak to the masses, and then there are those who see an opportunity during a conversation, that is right, to speak of God...I think, no actually I know, this is right on occasion. Cage is moving in the right direction.

If you find my suggestion to be in error, please have the courtesy to PM me with concerns.

I'd be much obliged.

v/r

Q

"And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? 58) As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. 59) I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper."
 
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Sometimes personal experiences can be just as helpful as heaps of theology. If you are seeking the truth about the resurrection, I recommend you read the Bible and ask God to show you … and also do some gardening!

Every year I plant some Lachenalia bulbs (“little soldiers”) that I got from a dear friend who passed away. After they have finished flowering I pull up the bulbs and throw then into my shed where they lay all brown and scaly for another six months, looking completely dead. Come autumn I plant them out again and in spring they flower so gaily I just have to say “Praise the Lord, one day my dear friend will rise again”.



Like Job of old, I can say
For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:25-26



​

​
God speaks through nature ... we just need to listen.




​
 
Hi Cage -

For the time being, I fail to see truth in a literal ressurection.

Worry not. There was a time when I didn't see it. My namesake failed to see it also (the disciple Thomas has been likened to the reasoning intellect if we get into apostolic anthropology) - and he had less of an excuse than either of us! The point is, Jesus did not appear and say "After everything you have seen and heard? After everything I said to you? You are a complete ... "

No. he utilised Thomas - all those who appear in Scripture are called to a role greater than themselves (how can they not) and the destiny of humanity - of the Cosmos - turns on those moments - which is why Thomas was not there the first time Jesus appeared in the 'upper room' (and we could walk a long mile on that symbology) - did he not know that Thomas would be out? I very much doubt it.

So Thomas enables Jesus to say "blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe".

And it allowed Thomas to say "My Lord, and my God!"

And if we allow Him, the Spirit will utilise us, despite our doubts and fears.

+++

There are many things in the Bible I have a hard time with, Thomas, and I guess that's just part of my own personal journey.

Yes.

In the end, I feel that Love is the driving force behind the Christian walk.

It's all there is.

Although, it was fear that gave me the desire to be saved.

If I may put words in your mouth, people misread the 'fear of God' thing. We don't fear God, we fear not being loved by Him - and for many, very many, it is this fear of not being loved, this doubt, that keeps God at arm's length.

A failure to commit - through fear of rejection.

I have much to work on in this department, but I don't think God, or Jesus will allow me to do all the work on my own. I may never come to believe in a literal ressurection, but in my mind, that will not/should not stand in the way of Jesus coming into my life.

Cage - Dare I say I don't think you don't believe ... I think you believe more than you know ... I think you believe more than you care to admit ... what you can't do is explain to yourself why you believe!

Welcome to the world of theology - as St Anselm defined it - 'faith seeking understanding.'

The Spirit is with you, even now.

+++

I am touched by his teachings, his sacrifice, and his message. I desire to follow him, and I believe he will honor my desire for forgiveness. Even w/o fully believing in the literal ressurection.

There is a difference between 'cannot' and 'will not' - Jesus never denies those who 'cannot' - that's what His healing miracles testify - only those who 'will not', and only because that is the just and merciful response to those who deny Him.

(The Spirit works with the 'cannot', gradually working it loose ...)

I don't think Jesus meant his sacrifice to be so exclusive.

Nor was it. The arms spread wide upon the cross embrace the whole world.

I get discouraged when I am told I cannot recieve his gift w/o first adhering to a criteria of belief that contradicts the laws of nature. The very laws I believe God himself put in place.

Whoa there! Firstly, whilst your heart beats, there's the gift, and there are, I dare say, a multitude of other little gifts that we all pass unoticed each and every moment of the day ...

... secondly nothing in Scripture 'contradicts' the laws of nature - that's duality, that's opposition. What happens is nature is referred to its higher principle, and transcended...

(doesn't Quantum science apparently 'contradict' the laws of nature?)

... people (not you) think, or rather never bother to think, that the Fathers, some among the greatest philosophers who ever lived, did not bother to question any of these things - the story of the first four centuries of Christianity is one huge Christological debate as they struggled to comprehend the meaning and implication of Revelation.

If I may wax Catholic for a moment, the adherence to doctrine, from the Catholic and Orthodox perspectives, is the refusal to reduce or rationalise the Mystery to make it fit within the bounds of human reason or man's preconception of 'what it must be like'.

If you want something to tussle with, take a look at:

http://www.theveil.net/veil/meta/bor/gnos_3.html

which begins: "If there is, in fact, a resurrection of the flesh, this is because the divine principle, which is immanent to the world in the very substance of matter, cannot but, by virtue of Its own Transcendence, tear the physical body out of the cosmic order to which it clings to manifest the very transcendence of the flesh when it has been truly indwelt by the Spirit..."

enjoy!

Do you understand where I'm coming from?

From a questing heart?

Thomas
 
Cage said:
We understand that a man cannot be physically raised to life after three days of decay
Click to expand...

Hi Cage,
I was wondering whether you believe miracles occurred in Jesus' ministry, and whether miracles occur today. If so, what is a miracle, and how does it occur?


Here's an interesting Scripture, quoting the words of Jesus as he spoke to a very skeptical audience
Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy,
Thy sins be forgiven thee;
or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mark 2:9




​
 
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