Paul's confused logic over faith and the Law

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Excaliburton

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Paul mentions a string of great old testament characters
justified by faith in Hebrews chapter eleven.

But did you know that in Paul’s constant confused logic, in another place said that faith did not exist until Jesus came.

Galatians 3:23-25
But before faith came , we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would .
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith .
25 But after faith has come , we are no longer under a tutor.


I wonder if Paul could tell day from night
 
In your words, what does FAITH mean?
In your words, what does LAW mean?
 
Excaliburton said:
Paul mentions a string of great old testament characters
justified by faith in Hebrews chapter eleven.

But did you know that in Paul’s constant confused logic, in another place said that faith did not exist until Jesus came.

Galatians 3:23-25
But before faith came , we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would .
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith .
25 But after faith has come , we are no longer under a tutor.


I wonder if Paul could tell day from night

"But before the "conviction that something is true", we were kept under guard by the law..." (that "something" is Jesus and His promise of salvation).

Paul is describing the faith in Jesus, which did not exist, because Jesus had not yet come, and reveal Himself. We were under "Protective custody" of laws that held us safe until the Father sent the Redeemer, and kept the Pleasure of the Father in us, until Jesus' arrival. The law did not save us, in the ressurection sense of the word, but it showed us the need to be saved, and, it did offer the promise of redemption.

v/r

Q
 
Excaliburton said:
Paul mentions a string of great old testament characters
justified by faith in Hebrews chapter eleven.

But did you know that in Paul’s constant confused logic, in another place said that faith did not exist until Jesus came.

Galatians 3:23-25
But before faith came , we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would .
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith .
25 But after faith has come , we are no longer under a tutor.


I wonder if Paul could tell day from night

Faith isn't driven or upheld by logic, but by personal feelings.

The question is, do you trust logic more than your personal feelings?

Which one makes more sense to you, logic or personal feelings?

Now you're probably wondering, how can logic not make sense? How can "logic" not be justified or reasonable?

Moreover, how can personal feelings be trusted? Isn't that irrational?

Life is often driven by personal feelings, interactions and relationships and is often incompatible with logic. So do you use logic or your personal feelings to solve life's problems? Can logic dehumanise the situation?

There are times when logic isn't justified or reasonable.

"Reasoning" and "logic" aren't the same thing. Reasoning is about coming up with "reasons," "explanations" and "justifications." Logic is systematic and often has "structure." Logic deals with highly structured problems. Reasoning processes don't have to be systematic. They can be driven by personal feelings, interactions and relationships. Reasoning can be sentimental as opposed to logical.

Life isn't always strictly driven by structure. The world we live in and the life we live is loosely structured. Of course, down to the lowest level, we are, in theory, state machines driven by quantum mechanics and classical physics, which run on mathematical (systematic and deterministic) relationships.

But the point is, life experiences aren't driven by logic. God gave us the ability to think in the abstract. He gave us feelings. They are a gift from God. I'd be pretty sure that if we have feelings that it's because logic isn't God's ultimate agenda. God gave as feelings because He wanted us to use them. So do we trust what God created -- the feelings He gave us, or trust what we can create for ourselves -- logic?

Is Paul's idea of faith based on logic or sentiment? Quite obviously faith is driven by sentiment, not by logic. Faith driven by logic wouldn't make sense. Paul's thinking may be confusing at first, unless we try and understand his agenda. What we want to understand is not Paul's "logic," but Paul's sentiment. Paul wasn't expressing logic, but sentiment. What Paul expresses is a "line of reasoning," but not one driven by logic. It's a line of reasoning driven by sentiment.
 
Excaliburton said:
Paul mentions a string of great old testament characters
justified by faith in Hebrews chapter eleven.

But did you know that in Paul’s constant confused logic, in another place said that faith did not exist until Jesus came.

Galatians 3:23-25
But before faith came , we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would .
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith .
25 But after faith has come , we are no longer under a tutor.


I wonder if Paul could tell day from night

Excaliburton, I think you are chasing your tail mate.
If one is to believe scholars, some of the epistles attributed to him aren't his, and in any case Paul's genuine letters stand way taller than the Gospels in terms of consistency and accuracy. If I remember correctly Hebrews is sometimes falsely attributed to him?

I think it would be good if you state in the open what is it that you don't like about Paul's teachings, I am not completely comfortable with the foundations he laid for the future of an organised christian religion, but his teachings are quite sound/consistent overall imo.

In any case, looking at it from the circular logic of the Bible it is quite clear that in OT times the revelation of Christ was veiled, implied at best, not just the revelation itself but also the final work of redemption. However the prophets were exceptionally indwelled with the Holy Spirit, so why couldn't they have true faith in Christ?
I think that Paul's assertion could be seen as accurate, as after Jesus' resurrection the Holy Spirit was readily available for anyone who believed (the counsellor, Christ's spirit living in me), whereas before this wasn't the case.
 
Caimanson said:
Excaliburton, I think you are chasing your tail mate.
If one is to believe scholars, some of the epistles attributed to him aren't his, and in any case Paul's genuine letters stand way taller than the Gospels in terms of consistency and accuracy. If I remember correctly Hebrews is sometimes falsely attributed to him?

I think it would be good if you state in the open what is it that you don't like about Paul's teachings, I am not completely comfortable with the foundations he laid for the future of an organised christian religion, but his teachings are quite sound/consistent overall imo.

In any case, looking at it from the circular logic of the Bible it is quite clear that in OT times the revelation of Christ was veiled, implied at best, not just the revelation itself but also the final work of redemption. However the prophets were exceptionally indwelled with the Holy Spirit, so why couldn't they have true faith in Christ?
I think that Paul's assertion could be seen as accurate, as after Jesus' resurrection the Holy Spirit was readily available for anyone who believed (the counsellor, Christ's spirit living in me), whereas before this wasn't the case.

1 What I most dislike about Paul's teachings is the idea that people do not have to repent of their sins to be saved but only have to repent of their unbelief. This has caused sin and crime to abound in the world, and I do not like sin.

2 If you exclude the works of Paul and his disciple, Luke, then you will find the Holy Spirit was given only to Jesus' apostles in John 20:22 and to nobody else.

3 Have you ever noticed that none of the events in the Acts is ever mentioned or corroborated in any of the books written by Mark, Matthew, John, Jude, James or Peter? Acts is entirely disconnected from the rest of the non-Pauline NT.
 
Excaliburton said:
1 What I most dislike about Paul's teachings is the idea that people do not have to repent of their sins to be saved but only have to repent of their unbelief. This has caused sin and crime to abound in the world, and I do not like sin.

2 If you exclude the works of Paul and his disciple, Luke, then you will find the Holy Spirit was given only to Jesus' apostles in John 20:22 and to nobody else.

3 Have you ever noticed that none of the events in the Acts is ever mentioned or corroborated in any of the books written by Mark, Matthew, John, Jude, James or Peter? Acts is entirely disconnected from the rest of the non-Pauline NT.

Maybe that is because God wants man to accept Him first, then deal with sin, and not the other way around. You seem to think we have to repent for our sins first...ok, to whom? Get it?

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Maybe that is because God wants man to accept Him first, then deal with sin, and not the other way around. You seem to think we have to repent for our sins first...ok, to whom? Get it?

v/r

Q

I have no problem in people accepting God as their first step.
But I do have a problem with Paulinists who say that repenting from sin is not the second step. . . and that faith alone leads to salvation without works of repentance "lest anyone should boast" as Paul was fond of saying.

(I notice that you have also ignored my second and third points.)
 
Excaliburton said:
I have no problem in people accepting God as their first step.
But I do have a problem with Paulinists who say that repenting from sin is not the second step. . . and that faith alone leads to salvation without works of repentance "lest anyone should boast" as Paul was fond of saying.

(I notice that you have also ignored my second and third points.)

You notice correctly. You come into the Christian Forum thinking you have all the answers, and are going to what Ex? Show us "ignrant" boweevels that we know nothing, that our faith is a myth, a joke, and you have all the answers?

I don't think so.

Here is what i think. I think you have absolutely no idea what a Christian is. You sure as hell don't act like one. Hence my second thought. You are here for nothing more than to disrupt a "community", just to see what happens between the poor saps, who call themselves Christians, but know nothing of their own faith. That was a mistake. a big mistake. Third, you thought no one would stand up to you. Here I am bright boy, and you haven't impressed me much with your bull.

Now I'm not the best of the Christian world, but I know the best when I see it, and I've seen a lot of it here at CR. and baby, you ain't part of it.

Keep on trying to chip away at the Christian thought here, and you might find out it wasn't worth it.

Next time I address you under such circumstances my friend, it won't be as a member of CR, but as the ass (hole) of CR, for which I am well known...

Do not, attempt to disrupt the Christian forum with your weighty cerebral cortex, and frontal lobes. Is that clear enough?

Or let me put it more subltely...I don't believe one damn thing you've said, and you've given nothing by way of evidence to support your...claims

So knock it off.

Other than that, have a nice day.

v/r

Q
 
Q, whats up? I have no contempt for you, but I do have differences with some of your beliefs. At this point I've got to ask, what is the purpose of this forum again? What is wrong with this thread? What is wrong with Excaliburton's posts? Is it now suddenly wrong for there to be controversy here?

Anyhow I'd like to discuss this. But first:
What does Faith mean?
What does Works mean?
What does Law mean?

I think different people have entirely different definitions.
 
cyberpi said:
Q, whats up? I have no contempt for you, but I do have differences with some of your beliefs. At this point I've got to ask, what is the purpose of this forum again? What is wrong with this thread? What is wrong with Excaliburton's posts? Is it now suddenly wrong for there to be controversy here?

Anyhow I'd like to discuss this. But first:
What does Faith mean?
What does Works mean?
What does Law mean?

I think different people have entirely different definitions.
faith means to trust god in all things
works means the will of god that naturally manifests from love
law means standards of righteousness

you didnt put grace in the list, but i will...

grace is the free gift of god that there is salvation thru his son since we fail in keeping gods holy laws. to receive it we humbe ourselves, repent, and accept gods gift thru faith that he has proclaimed and promised, because we cannot do it on our own.
 
cyberpi said:
Q, whats up? I have no contempt for you, but I do have differences with some of your beliefs. At this point I've got to ask, what is the purpose of this forum again? What is wrong with this thread? What is wrong with Excaliburton's posts? Is it now suddenly wrong for there to be controversy here?

Anyhow I'd like to discuss this. But first:
What does Faith mean?
What does Works mean?
What does Law mean?

I think different people have entirely different definitions.

Cyperbi, besides being deceptive about your thoughts about me, your problem is that I too, have strong thoughts about things, and you don't like it, because they conflict with your own ideas. So you resort to snips and slights, then if some one else comes along, you do the tag team thing.

Most people can't be bothered with that, and would simply leave, but I'm not most people.

And please don't take it personal Cyperbi...I am an equal opportunity irritator, to those who do not want their ideas questioned, or disputed...

Perhaps you should have placed this in the PM you started writing to me earlier this morning, but did not complete. :eek:

Now, as per your questions:

Faith - "The belief in things as yet unseen and hope for things that have yet to be"

Works - "The results of efforts made to accomplish goals for specific purposes, some tangible, others intangible"

Law - "The standards set by society in order to maintain a cohesive, structured, civil community, the lack of which could only lead to anarchy and entropy"

v/r

Q
 
Excaliburton said:
1 What I most dislike about Paul's teachings is the idea that people do not have to repent of their sins to be saved but only have to repent of their unbelief. This has caused sin and crime to abound in the world, and I do not like sin.

2 If you exclude the works of Paul and his disciple, Luke, then you will find the Holy Spirit was given only to Jesus' apostles in John 20:22 and to nobody else.

3 Have you ever noticed that none of the events in the Acts is ever mentioned or corroborated in any of the books written by Mark, Matthew, John, Jude, James or Peter? Acts is entirely disconnected from the rest of the non-Pauline NT.

1- I hear you. You are concerned about a scenario where those who are saved by faith are licensed to sin, is that right? In my experience you don't deal with the sin directly but rather the root of the behaviour inside you.
As far as I know in christianity there is a lot of emphasis in repentance of sins and unbelief together.
And Paul in no way states that salvation through faith gives you a license to sin, as you can clearly read in Romans 6.

2&3- Good points. But hey, that's the bible for you.
You are free to pick and choose, but as Quahom said don't expect crowds to follow you, as mainstream christianity has done a great deal trying to reconcile the vast teachings of the bible into something more or less coherent and workable.


I'm not here to defend Paul, regardless of you accepting Pauline teachings or otherwise. So I want to encourage you to do some soul searching regarding this sin/salvation business and why does it bother you so much.:eek: I sense you are acting out a battle of factions inside of you, perhaps they need to talk, understand each other and reconcile. just a thought
 
Caimanson said:
1- I hear you. You are concerned about a scenario where those who are saved by faith are licensed to sin, is that right? In my experience you don't deal with the sin directly but rather the root of the behaviour inside you.
As far as I know in christianity there is a lot of emphasis in repentance of sins and unbelief together.
And Paul in no way states that salvation through faith gives you a license to sin, as you can clearly read in Romans 6.

2&3- Good points. But hey, that's the bible for you.
You are free to pick and choose, but as Quahom said don't expect crowds to follow you, as mainstream christianity has done a great deal trying to reconcile the vast teachings of the bible into something more or less coherent and workable.


I'm not here to defend Paul, regardless of you accepting Pauline teachings or otherwise. So I want to encourage you to do some soul searching regarding this sin/salvation business and why does it bother you so much.:eek: I sense you are acting out a battle of factions inside of you, perhaps they need to talk, understand each other and reconcile. just a thought

Now I understand what my mother was trying to convey to me about the British being such wonderful communicators...You can say in a page, what would take me a book...:eek: :eek: :)
 
Kindest Regards, Excaliburton!

Excaliburton said:
1 What I most dislike about Paul's teachings is the idea that people do not have to repent of their sins to be saved but only have to repent of their unbelief. This has caused sin and crime to abound in the world, and I do not like sin.
At the risk of being the buttinsky I can be, I hear ya on this point. While I agree there are some factions / sects / denominations that do get a bit...hung up...on the faith vs. works issue and seem to interpret "grace" as license to sin ("just stick a couple of bucks in the offering plate and all is forgiven"), thankfully they are not the majority opinion even if they can be quite vocal. Besides, weren't Paul's words on this specific subject "G-d forbid!"?

2 If you exclude the works of Paul and his disciple, Luke, then you will find the Holy Spirit was given only to Jesus' apostles in John 20:22 and to nobody else.
Well, see, if we are going the route of guilt by association, then we also have to discount Mark, according to Mr. Garaffa. And while I am not familiar with the fellow you mentioned, I would not be surprized if he mentions the same point. And since we are using the "guilt by association" technique, let us not forget Matthew was a tax collector. And none of the words were written by Jesus, so by implication, since all was written at least 20 years after Jesus' execution, likely no one got it right. Shoot, John can't even agree with the other three, so which are we to believe? Ooops, that's right, Jesus as Divine and the Son of G-d, is through Paul and his associates, so without Paul we have a mundane messiah. No walking on water, no healing the sick, no bread and fishes, no raising from the dead (personally or professionally). So, what do we have? "Just" another wannabe wise man with a collection of sayings to sooth hysteric old women. What difference if I was to *worship* Mohandas Gandhi? (No offense to Gandhi, great man, just not Messiah material with a capital "M") Without Paul, Jesus is just another man, and that assumes the sect he started could or would even survive the Roman slaughter and purge of Jerusalem and Israel, which, frankly, I have grave doubts.

3 Have you ever noticed that none of the events in the Acts is ever mentioned or corroborated in any of the books written by Mark, Matthew, John, Jude, James or Peter? Acts is entirely disconnected from the rest of the non-Pauline NT.
Or Luke. Of course, why should it? Why would the gospels tell a part of the story with which they are not concerned? Why would I read Little Red Riding Hood to find out about the Three Little Pigs? Acts is a continuation of the book of Luke, and picks up where Luke leaves off (makes sense, same author).

You are welcome to believe as you wish, but at least consider the ramifications of the direction you point yourself in. The matter is not as simple as "doing away with Paul." The methods used to do away with Paul whittle away at the entire New Testament until there is nothing left.

Even if, and I stress *if*, one could stand on the purported words of Jesus alone, then one must be a Jew, with everything that entails. Not just lip service; a full blown card carrying Temple going Shabbat keeping Hannukah celebrating circumcised no bacon eating Jew. That is the reality. Jesus came to the Jews. John, Peter, James and crew set up shop in Jerusalem to cater to the Jews.

Paul's commission carried the message to the Gentiles. Without Paul, the Gentiles are excluded. Simple really. One could theorize all kinds of maybes and hopefuls, *if* G-d *really* wanted things to go that way...but they didn't. G-d blessed Paul's ministry, as evidenced by the success Christianity enjoys to this day. And I thank G-d for it.

Of course, this is just my opinion, having looked a little at this subject, and coming away with a wanting feeling, as though something is left behind, or left out, or missing, or I don't know what. I have done what I could for a long time to walk the path of a Messianic Jew, so I know very well how the path is too Christian for the Jews, and too Jewish for the Christians. If you would prefer to give up Paul, I still think one is far better off just converting to Judaism proper. Your life and faith walk will be far easier and will make much more sense. Otherwise, one is walking a fence, trying to balance two faith walks that do not fully complement each other, despite their kinship and shared doctine.
 
My definitions:

Faith: That which is done per a will, by another will... often characterized by believing in the unseen will, or the trust involved.
Works: Anything done by a will.
Law: An agreement between two or more wills.
Commandment: A requirement by a will for peace. With covenant it becomes law.
Grace: Gifted Faith: Life, wisdom, power, resource.
Soul: A free-will which is unseen.

Excaliburton and everyone else... I am interested in the definitions you presently believe in, or read as being that which Jesus (pbuh) used. Thank you Q and Blazn for yours. I wish to compile a list. I think Paul reads slightly different definitions, and I am betting that everyone does.
 
Quahom1,
I imagine you believe as you wish to believe because you are responsible for it. Likewise I am responsible for what I believe. Here is why I will persist to be a thorn for you:

In your post #9 was a single sentence with the words, "Show US", "WE know", and "OUR Faith". Think, why was this plural? Please scroll back and look at it. Who else are you trying to speak for? You then describe this community as not knowing their beliefs (your definition faith), yet you verbally exclude a person from it based on your judgement. Very well, but note that I am also excluded from your community. I openly and honestly report that I do not see, know, or believe as you do. Agreed? So per your words, I'm not in your community either. In fact, I question who is.

The reason I am vocal with this issue is not out of spite, but because I like to talk with a few people that you have called enemy. Only a few I consider extremist and a noteworthy feature of those is the use of the plural pronouns as in, "WE see", or "WE know", or "WE believe", etc... referring to a large community of individuals, the majority of whom a person does not see, know or believe the same as. In fact the majority the individual does not even personally know. Do you see my point?

Quahom1 whether you agree with me or not doesn't matter because I hope other people might see something, as do most people who take the time to post. You have my criteria on something now so you can point it out if I be a hypocrite, and teach me a lesson. I prefer a community where people can see differently, think differently, and believe differently, because that reflects the reality, right? If a website called comparative-religion is not it, then I came to the wrong place. My mistake. That does NOT mean two people can not argue over their beliefs, does it? In fact, I would encourage people to do so. But I can only speak for my own beliefs. How about you?
 
Cyperbi,

As this is a Christian forum, usually the majority here are Christians as well, hence the collective, we, us and our.

Of the 2.3 billion Christians (world wide), the general concensus is that Jesus is God, that Paul had a great deal to do with Christinity getting off the ground. Indeed it is estimated that only six to 12 million do not consider Jesus as God, and about three million do not accept Pauline texts. This still leaves 2.985 billion who do. That is the we, us and our, that I refer to.

As for you, I do not know what your professed faith is, as you tend to use identifiers that are particular with Islam, but also allude to Christian roots, when addressing Jesus and God.

"Hypocrit", I never implied you or anyone else as such. However, I am absolutely confident in my faith as it stands, and have no problem stating such, nor do I have trouble defending it.

Finally I consider no one an enemy, until they deliberately wish and cause harm.

my thoughts

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
You notice correctly. You come into the Christian Forum thinking you have all the answers, and are going to what Ex? Show us "ignrant" boweevels that we know nothing, that our faith is a myth, a joke, and you have all the answers?

I don't think so.

Here is what i think. I think you have absolutely no idea what a Christian is. You sure as hell don't act like one. Hence my second thought. You are here for nothing more than to disrupt a "community", just to see what happens between the poor saps, who call themselves Christians, but know nothing of their own faith. That was a mistake. a big mistake. Third, you thought no one would stand up to you. Here I am bright boy, and you haven't impressed me much with your bull.

Now I'm not the best of the Christian world, but I know the best when I see it, and I've seen a lot of it here at CR. and baby, you ain't part of it.

Keep on trying to chip away at the Christian thought here, and you might find out it wasn't worth it.

Next time I address you under such circumstances my friend, it won't be as a member of CR, but as the ass (hole) of CR, for which I am well known...

Do not, attempt to disrupt the Christian forum with your weighty cerebral cortex, and frontal lobes. Is that clear enough?

Or let me put it more subltely...I don't believe one damn thing you've said, and you've given nothing by way of evidence to support your...claims


So knock it off.

Other than that, have a nice day.

v/r

Q

What a jerk.

Chris
 
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