faith and works

[Caimanson]

Ciberpi, I sort of agree with what you are saying. If you have true belief unimpeded by fear or doubt, then yes it will manifest in action.
The question is: what is the nature of those actions, is it true faith or is it the act of your own will, your own ideas or perhaps because you are expected by church, society and peers to do so?

Which is exactly the point made by Kenod: why do head in different directions if we are led by the same Spirit? Are we?

 

[InLove]

I believe it is the Spirit of grace that brings faith and works together. And grace surely must belong to Love, because without the spark of Love, I don't see how grace can operate. I also submit that sometimes--often, even--it is this very same Spirit that leads us into the wilderness so that we are given the opportunity to respond faithfully--to ultimately and totally depend on the grace and mercy of the Holy Spirit of God to show us what good work really is, and to bring forth our understanding of what it is He wants from us in the way of "fruits". I see this not only in the Biblcal account of the temptation of Jesus, but also in the accounts of Abraham and Isaac and that of Hagar and Ishmael. And I see it in both the messages of James and of Paul. I tend to think of what seems to be dichotemy as more an issue of dialect, perhaps.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Quahom1]

I believe it is the Spirit of grace that brings faith and works together. And grace surely must belong to Love, because without the spark of Love, I don't see how grace can operate. I also submit that sometimes--often, even--it is this very same Spirit that leads us into the wilderness so that we are given the opportunity to respond faithfully--to ultimately and totally depend on the grace and mercy of the Holy Spirit of God to show us what good work really is, and to bring forth our understanding of what it is He wants from us in the way of "fruits". I see this not only in the Biblcal account of the temptation of Jesus, but also in the accounts of Abraham and Isaac and that of Hagar and Ishmael. And I see it in both the messages of James and of Paul. I tend to think of what seems to be dichotemy as more an issue of dialect, perhaps.

InPeace,
InLove

As stated in the Bible, faith is a gift, works is what one does with that gift. It could be five talents worth, or three, or one...and the master will call for an accounting upon his return to those his servants he entrusted with such...

v/r

Q

 

[kenod]

As stated in the Bible, faith is a gift, works is what one does with that gift. It could be five talents worth, or three, or one...and the master will call for an accounting upon his return to those his servants he entrusted with such...
v/r
Q

That is such a great lesson ... the person who was so afraid of making a mistake, that he did nothing with his "talent", was the one who was condemned. Better to try and muck up, than to not even have a go ... God looks on the heart. I find much comfort in that ... I guess that's because I make so many mistakes!!!

 

[Quahom1]

That is such a great lesson ... the person who was so afraid of making a mistake, that he did nothing with his "talent", was the one who was condemned. Better to try and muck up, than to not even have a go ... God looks on the heart. I find much comfort in that ... I guess that's because I make so many mistakes!!!

Then perhaps you may consider the opposite. Works, without faith are as rags to be burned with the chaff?

How true that is, if one considers. "Why do you give?" Because I'm supposed to. "Ok, what does it mean to you?" Nothing really.

"Then why do you give?"...

What is my point? The giving is not for the recipient, but rather for the benefit of the giver...do you see? Of course the recipient is grateful. But what of the giver? Might as well be a defective slot machine.

What happens to a defective slot machine? gets tossed into the garbage heap...

 

[Saltmeister]

I agree with what you are saying here, but the obvious question always comes to mind: If we are all being led by the same Holy Spirit why are we not all heading in exactly the same direction.

I don't want to make specific issues about these points but there is not consistent agreement among Christians on many important subjects: eg Iraq, divorce, stem cells, ...

Some of these things sure have negative effects and influences, but not all the time. The Holy Spirit is not some machine that churns out magical formulas and implants them into our minds. That's what discernment is for. God gave us a mind to think and reason in the abstract.

But we prefer to think about the concrete and technical details instead!!! We want to compartmentalise life and society rather than looking inward at our heart and soul, rather than considering how we'll thinking and feeling we want to change the way the world works.

One man adapts the world to himself. Another adapts himself to the world.

That's the thing about divorce and stem cells -- it's about how the world works, not about our attitude towards people. When we argue about divorce and stem cells we are trying to structure the outside world, the universe external to the human soul. Rather than dealing with our own personal problems and issues, we choose to talk about divorce and stem cells. That's because we want to distract ourselves. Personal reform is harder than politics so we choose to talk about politics because it's just easier for us.

 

[seattlegal]

Hmm, isn't it the Holy Spirit who works through us?

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
<"Faith" part>
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
<"works" part>

The "works" are not our works, but the Holy Spirit's works! {blinding flash of the obvious--for me, at least!}