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shadowman
Guest
"torment is eternal for offenses against an omnibelevolent being"
moseslmpg
Well-Known Member
It was a hypothetical proposition. If Jesus said God does not exist, then it would not be true simply because he said it. Likewise, if Jesus stated he was not the Word of God, would he be or would he not be? The point I was trying to get across is that something should not be taken to be literally true just because I certain person said it, regardless of who they are.Quahom1 said:
Terrence said:
Shadow, I meant omnibenevolent, not omnibelevolent. I don't know if there is a such thing as omnibelevolence, but being God, I'm sure He is that as well.
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Terrence
Guest
I was under the impression that God could do whatever He wants, including lying. I mean, He changes pretty dramatically at times in the Bible, and did He not say that He never changes?
Where did you get the impression that God cant do anything? Sorry to inform you, but our God is a God of Holiness that cannot sin. Since lying is a sin, God cannot lie. Yes, God is immutable - He does not change.
I didn't say he did. I'm trying to point out that just because something comes out of Jesus' mouth does not make it an objective truth. He came to teach, and teaching is dependent on understanding, and understanding is dependent on the students.
Im sorry, but I dont have the luxary of guessing who Jesus is or what he came to do. I just know the Truth. He died to save sinners from God's wrath.
Since when does my belief not negate reality?
What do you mean Sarah?
Where did you get the impression that God cant do anything? Sorry to inform you, but our God is a God of Holiness that cannot sin. Since lying is a sin, God cannot lie. Yes, God is immutable - He does not change.
I didn't say he did. I'm trying to point out that just because something comes out of Jesus' mouth does not make it an objective truth. He came to teach, and teaching is dependent on understanding, and understanding is dependent on the students.
Im sorry, but I dont have the luxary of guessing who Jesus is or what he came to do. I just know the Truth. He died to save sinners from God's wrath.
Since when does my belief not negate reality?
What do you mean Sarah?
moseslmpg said:
The circular logic, is...interesting. Sort of like saying if God is so powerful (omnipotent), can He make a mountain that even He can't move...
If Jesus stated God does not exist, then He would be lying, which is an impossibility because God's word is eternally true, which means Jesus can't lie, so everything He states is the truth...
Same goes for Jesus saying He isn't the Word of God, that being a lie would be an impossible statement for him to make because the Word of God can not come back void, hence Jesus would not make such a statement...
As far as not looking a gift horse in the mouth, they may be true for men, but holds no bearing for God. If God says it, then that settles it. There is no buts about it.
moseslmpg
Well-Known Member
Where did you get the impression that God cant do anything? Sorry to inform you, but our God is a God of Holiness that cannot sin. Since lying is a sin, God cannot lie. Yes, God is immutable - He does not change.
I got the impression from the fact that He is God and He can do whatever He wants. By limiting God in what He can and cannot do, you are not referring to God. I mean, it has been said many times around here that He can do what He wants, faithfulservant just got on mee about saying what God does and does not do on the previous page. God can lie, but when he does it, it is not a sin. That is a better explanation. I won't get into his immutableness though.
Im sorry, but I dont have the luxary of guessing who Jesus is or what he came to do. I just know the Truth. He died to save sinners from God's wrath.
OK. I was not denying that. But do you deny that he also came to teach people things? If he only came to die, then he might as well have been stillborn. The point I am trying to make, which will apparently never get across, is that just because Jesus says something does not mean it is objectively true. He did speak in parables after all. Thus, you can't just use him as a reason to validate whether Hell exists as a place of eternal torment or not.
What do you mean Sarah?
I mean exactly what I say...Francine (?)
Quahom, I know that stuff can never happen, but I am not focusing on that. I am trying to get across a point. It's sort of like the situation in which God tells you to kill an innocent human being, in which you know it is God speaking, and you know the human is totally innocent. Except, that is more inflammatory and provocative and serves no real purpose, whereas my point just won't get across.
I got the impression from the fact that He is God and He can do whatever He wants. By limiting God in what He can and cannot do, you are not referring to God. I mean, it has been said many times around here that He can do what He wants, faithfulservant just got on mee about saying what God does and does not do on the previous page. God can lie, but when he does it, it is not a sin. That is a better explanation. I won't get into his immutableness though.
Im sorry, but I dont have the luxary of guessing who Jesus is or what he came to do. I just know the Truth. He died to save sinners from God's wrath.
OK. I was not denying that. But do you deny that he also came to teach people things? If he only came to die, then he might as well have been stillborn. The point I am trying to make, which will apparently never get across, is that just because Jesus says something does not mean it is objectively true. He did speak in parables after all. Thus, you can't just use him as a reason to validate whether Hell exists as a place of eternal torment or not.
What do you mean Sarah?
I mean exactly what I say...Francine (?)
Quahom, I know that stuff can never happen, but I am not focusing on that. I am trying to get across a point. It's sort of like the situation in which God tells you to kill an innocent human being, in which you know it is God speaking, and you know the human is totally innocent. Except, that is more inflammatory and provocative and serves no real purpose, whereas my point just won't get across.
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Terrence
Guest
I got the impression from the fact that He is God and He can do whatever He wants. By limiting God in what He can and cannot do, you are not referring to God. I mean, it has been said many times around here that He can do what He wants, faithfulservant just got on mee about saying what God does and does not do on the previous page. God can lie, but when he does it, it is not a sin. That is a better explanation. I won't get into his immutableness though.
God does what He wants but cant go agaisnt Himself. He is good thus he cant sin. He is truth, thus He cant lie. See where this is going? Its really simple.
OK. I was not denying that. But do you deny that he also came to teach people things? If he only came to die, then he might as well have been stillborn. The point I am trying to make, which will apparently never get across, is that just because Jesus says something does not mean it is objectively true. He did speak in parables after all. Thus, you can't just use him as a reason to validate whether Hell exists as a place of eternal torment or not.
Nope. He didnt just came to die. You're right, if that was the case, he could have died any of the 10 times they tired to kill him before He actually got to the cross. No, the Bible makes it clear that Christ had to suffer. Suffering is what sinners who die apart from Christ will feel in hell. Moreover, He had to fullfill the prophecies concerning His death the exact way it was predected. God is all about specifics. Christ didnt come to just teach (though He did), He came to do more than thant - namely, make dead people live as apposed to doing what all other religions do, namely, make bad people good.
I mean exactly what I say...Francine (?)
Sorry, you lost me here Sarah.
God does what He wants but cant go agaisnt Himself. He is good thus he cant sin. He is truth, thus He cant lie. See where this is going? Its really simple.
OK. I was not denying that. But do you deny that he also came to teach people things? If he only came to die, then he might as well have been stillborn. The point I am trying to make, which will apparently never get across, is that just because Jesus says something does not mean it is objectively true. He did speak in parables after all. Thus, you can't just use him as a reason to validate whether Hell exists as a place of eternal torment or not.
Nope. He didnt just came to die. You're right, if that was the case, he could have died any of the 10 times they tired to kill him before He actually got to the cross. No, the Bible makes it clear that Christ had to suffer. Suffering is what sinners who die apart from Christ will feel in hell. Moreover, He had to fullfill the prophecies concerning His death the exact way it was predected. God is all about specifics. Christ didnt come to just teach (though He did), He came to do more than thant - namely, make dead people live as apposed to doing what all other religions do, namely, make bad people good.
I mean exactly what I say...Francine (?)
Sorry, you lost me here Sarah.
moseslmpg
Well-Known Member
God does what He wants but cant go agaisnt Himself. He is good thus he cant sin. He is truth, thus He cant lie. See where this is going? Its really simple.
So you are limiting God in what He can do. I wouldn't say that God can't do those things, just that He chooses not to. And even if He did lie, it wouldn't be a lie, and if He did sin, it would not be a sin.
Nope. He didnt just came to die. You're right, if that was the case, he could have died any of the 10 times they tired to kill him before He actually got to the cross. No, the Bible makes it clear that Christ had to suffer. Suffering is what sinners who die apart from Christ will feel in hell. Moreover, He had to fullfill the prophecies concerning His death the exact way it was predected. God is all about specifics. Christ didnt come to just teach (though He did), He came to do more than thant - namely, make dead people live as apposed to doing what all other religions do, namely, make bad people good.
OK.
Sorry, you lost me here Sarah.
Why are you calling me Sarah? And how are you lost in "I mean exactly what I say?" I can try to explain the meaning of that if you want.
So you are limiting God in what He can do. I wouldn't say that God can't do those things, just that He chooses not to. And even if He did lie, it wouldn't be a lie, and if He did sin, it would not be a sin.
Nope. He didnt just came to die. You're right, if that was the case, he could have died any of the 10 times they tired to kill him before He actually got to the cross. No, the Bible makes it clear that Christ had to suffer. Suffering is what sinners who die apart from Christ will feel in hell. Moreover, He had to fullfill the prophecies concerning His death the exact way it was predected. God is all about specifics. Christ didnt come to just teach (though He did), He came to do more than thant - namely, make dead people live as apposed to doing what all other religions do, namely, make bad people good.
OK.
Sorry, you lost me here Sarah.
Why are you calling me Sarah? And how are you lost in "I mean exactly what I say?" I can try to explain the meaning of that if you want.
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Terrence
Guest
So you are limiting God in what He can do. I wouldn't say that God can't do those things, just that He chooses not to. And even if He did lie, it wouldn't be a lie, and if He did sin, it would not be a sin.
No, the Bible is clear that God cant do somethings, e.g., lie, sin, change, be unperfect, etc.
Why are you calling me Sarah? And how are you lost in "I mean exactly what I say?" I can try to explain the meaning of that if you want.
Cause I'm making a point about absolute truth. No matter what I believe, and no matter how sincere I believe it, your name isnt Sarah.
No, the Bible is clear that God cant do somethings, e.g., lie, sin, change, be unperfect, etc.
Why are you calling me Sarah? And how are you lost in "I mean exactly what I say?" I can try to explain the meaning of that if you want.
Cause I'm making a point about absolute truth. No matter what I believe, and no matter how sincere I believe it, your name isnt Sarah.
Terrence said:
No one "Limited" God. The Bible is specific. God's word is absolute truth...
No He can't LIE. HE CAN'T BE PARTY TO SIN.
I think the only ones here with a problem understanding that is ...those that simply are looking for argument, for argument sake.
moseslmpg
Well-Known Member
Cause I'm making a point about absolute truth. No matter what I believe, and no matter how sincere I believe it, your name isnt Sarah.
If you believe hard enough, it might be. Using names for this point is not good though, seeing as how there is relativism to contend with. To you, my name may be Sarah, to me it is someting else, to my parents it is something different. I was just trying to see if you were comparing me to someone named Sarah.
I don't know what other purpose there is for argument other than argument itself. I like to argue, what can I say?
If you believe hard enough, it might be. Using names for this point is not good though, seeing as how there is relativism to contend with. To you, my name may be Sarah, to me it is someting else, to my parents it is something different. I was just trying to see if you were comparing me to someone named Sarah.
God can't do a bunch of things apparently, and I understood He was to be omnipotent. I don't understand why you say He can't lie. Didn't Jesus speak in parables, which are not absolutely true? Those are sort of like lies (ok fine, that was weak, but it's technically true). Likewise, God said in the Old Testament that He never changes, and He obviously has changed in the New Testament. That seems like a lie as well. He has killed people before, which is apparently a sin. So obviously, if God cannot sin, then if God lies, it is not a sin in the same way when He kills, that is not as sin as well.Quahom1 said:
I don't know what other purpose there is for argument other than argument itself. I like to argue, what can I say?
moseslmpg said:
He can't do things that would make Him not God. Else He would be no better than His nemesis...
That isn't our rules (according to the Bible, but His own rules).
Parables are in fact absolutely true. That is they tell us the truth about ourselves. Sin is an error of Man, not God. If God wants to wipe out His creation, (if the Potterer wishes to destroy His pottery), who can object? Your arguments appear to attempt to place human qualities/weaknesses/sin capacity, on the supreme Creator. God can "kill" anything and anyone God wishes to kill, and it is not sin. Sin is reserved for the created, not the creator.
Your "debate" is interesting.
moseslmpg
Well-Known Member
That's what I am trying to say. If God did lie, it would not be a sin, in the same way that when He kills it is not a sin.Quahom1 said:
As for human qualities, I'm not the one who said He is wrathful and jealous and all that...but that's beside the point.
Also parables are not strictly true, since they present events that have no truthful existence for the purpose of communicating some fundamental truth. The point is that something does not have to be absolutely true just because it leaves Jesus' mouth. It's not a sin or anything, but it's not the truth either.
moseslmpg said:
To kill is not a lie or a false hood. To lie is a contradiction to the truth. God can not contradict Himself. Else that would mean God is flawed. Then there would be no difference between the supreme creator or anyone else, except a sense of power. However, since God can not contradict Himself, He is above all other creation (besides the fact that He created everything).
Again, your "circular logic" is...interesting.
moseslmpg
Well-Known Member
Jesus is God, Jesus told parables, parables are not true, thus God lied. Anyway, killing and lying are both equally wrong in God's eyes apparently. Isn't He the Way, the Truth, and also the Life? Thus when He kills, he must be contradicting himself, by the samewise logic used in the case of Him lying. it is obvious that He can bypass the contradiction on killing, so He must be able to do the same with lies.
And my logic isn't the one that is circular.
And my logic isn't the one that is circular.
moseslmpg said:
Please show the falsehood of a "parable".
Oh, and God can do whatever He wants. That includes taking life, or giving life. Calling God a liar is not the wisest manuever a man can do.
Circular logic is when a presentation is made that allows for no end...also known as a "catch 22". It frequently happens when man attempts to apply the finite logic of man to the infinite that is God.
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Terrence
Guest
If you believe hard enough, it might be. Using names for this point is not good though, seeing as how there is relativism to contend with. To you, my name may be Sarah, to me it is someting else, to my parents it is something different. I was just trying to see if you were comparing me to someone named Sarah.
Lets skip the post modernism crap! Your parants gave you a name when you were born...its on your birth papers. No matter what I believe in my heart about your name, it will not change the fact that it isnt the name on that paper. Truth is absolute. Here, I'll prove it again by asking you this: Are you sure that truth isnt absolute?
moseslmpg
Well-Known Member
A parable is like a fairytale without the fantasy elements. Like the parable of the prodigal son did not literally happen to someone, it was meant to express something else. By being a fabrication, it is technically not the truth, which means it is a lie.Quahom1 said:
I know God can do whatever He wants, including lying and killing right? If not, then He cannot do anything. I don't see why He cannot lie but He can kill, seeing as how it is basically the same thing.
But isn't your reasoning circular as well? You say God cannot lie because His word says he cannot, but this assumes that He does not lie, which is based on the Bible that says He cannot lie, etc.. My "circular logic" does allow for an end, which is God can do whatever He wants, which includes lying and killing.
If you're talking about the words written on my birth certificate, then it would take a lot of belief to change those. But as for my name, which is not limited by some writing on paper (if it was, then a lot of old people would not have names), it can be changed quite easily. Just keep referring to me as Sarah, and for all intents and purposes, that will be my name, since a name is just something you use to refer to something and not the thing itself.Terrence said:
No, I am not sure truth isn't absolute. Nor am I sure it is.
What's wrong with postmodernism? Isn't it a postmodern society we live in?
moseslmpg said:
A parable is a story in prose or verse that is told to illustrate a (perhaps covert) religious or ethical idea. However, it differs from a fable in some ways (the two can not be used interchangeably). The purpose is to express a truism or truth. It is also considered metaphorical, which is not by any means false, but rather an "analogy" to a point that is to be made.
Second, we do not know if the "parables" were fabrications or true stories, so your assumption is in jeopardy. So far, "God" has not been proven to be a liar. The morals of the stories He was giving us certainly were not lies...
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Terrence
Guest
moseslmpg said:
Im not sure whether to laugh or cry when I speak with people like you. First, the obvious truth is that no matter what I believe about your name, it wouldnt change the fact that it is what it is. My truth as well as preception of truth, has no baring on the fact that your name isnt what I said it was. As for whats wrong with postmodernism, you're pretty much show it...You affirm that there is truth without affariming that we can know it. This is the essence existentialism. Question: Do you exist?