Word of God

JosephM said:
Is this a quiz or something? There is no need to fill up this thread with personal questions. God has not revealed all that there is to me as of this time but I am well aware of what the Bible says so whats your point?

Love in Christ,
JM
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Hi Joesph, i am not making a point at this moment, but simply trying to understand your view. It would be much easier for me to dialogue with you if I could understand where you are coming from. If you do not want to answer personal questions that is fine, but you have many assumptions and biases about the bible that fit your personal veiw and I am curious why. If God has been building you up and revealing hidden knowledge to you I hope you would be willing to share it with the rest of us just like in my belief I believe God has revealed his knowledge through the gospel which is why I share my faith. Give me one chance to through some questions and I will be satisfied.(for the moment. lol) Let me know how feel. God Bless DJ
 
Hey Joseph, you said

Well said. Men had an agenda when they added and men had an agenda when they removed and might I add men were no different when they formed it. The english Bible was not available to the general public until 1539. Engllish and other Bibles were pretty well kept secret and out of public eyes until 1539 and then they were chained to the pulpit. Men haven't changed in 2000 years. The jewish church had an agenda in Jesus's day and since that day all organized religions have had an agenda. Fortunately God has no such limitation as a Book.


Yes, men do have an agenda. That is why GOd gave us a book so men do not create their own. The early Christians and apostles only had one agenda and that was preaching the Gospel of Christ which saves mens souls from the justice we deserve and allows men to enter heaven through faith in CHrist alone for the forgiveness of sin because he took our punishment. The difference between you and I is I believe that an all powerful GOd can write a book through the hand of man by the power of his spirit and get every single he wants written. Man is fallible but the power of GOd is limitless and the Bible is not a limitation as you said, but evidence of an omnipotent God.
 
streetbob2006 said:
Hi Joesph, i am not making a point at this moment, but simply trying to understand your view. It would be much easier for me to dialogue with you if I could understand where you are coming from. If you do not want to answer personal questions that is fine, but you have many assumptions and biases about the bible that fit your personal veiw and I am curious why. If God has been building you up and revealing hidden knowledge to you I hope you would be willing to share it with the rest of us just like in my belief I believe God has revealed his knowledge through the gospel which is why I share my faith. Give me one chance to through some questions and I will be satisfied.(for the moment. lol) Let me know how feel. God Bless DJ
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Hi streetbob,

The problem with answering unrelated questions to the thread is that your mind will then compartmentalize me under a label. The mind does this as a natural function. Then you will assume you understand where I am coming from when you actually do not. Things aren't as simple as liberal/conservative, pre-trib/post-trib, christian sect, etc etc. if you get the gist of what I mean. My religious views are very flexible as I have found that to be rigid in ones views blinds one to self-evident truth before us. Yes, I have a realtionship with God that does not require a Bible though much of what is revealed to me agrees with much of it. It also agrees with saying of truth in other religions. God is as you know not limited to a book and his 1st choice is to speak to us directly. (The mount story) (the holy spirit your teacher) (etc)

Ok, with that understanding ... shoot

Love in Christ,
JM
 
streetbob2006 said:
Hey Joseph, you said

"Well said. Men had an agenda when they added and men had an agenda when they removed and might I add men were no different when they formed it. The english Bible was not available to the general public until 1539. Engllish and other Bibles were pretty well kept secret and out of public eyes until 1539 and then they were chained to the pulpit. Men haven't changed in 2000 years. The jewish church had an agenda in Jesus's day and since that day all organized religions have had an agenda. Fortunately God has no such limitation as a Book."


Yes, men do have an agenda. That is why GOd gave us a book so men do not create their own. The early Christians and apostles only had one agenda and that was preaching the Gospel of Christ which saves mens souls from the justice we deserve and allows men to enter heaven through faith in CHrist alone for the forgiveness of sin because he took our punishment. The difference between you and I is I believe that an all powerful GOd can write a book through the hand of man by the power of his spirit and get every single he wants written. Man is fallible but the power of GOd is limitless and the Bible is not a limitation as you said, but evidence of an omnipotent God.
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Streetbob,

Having a Book will not prevent men from having an agenda. Most cults like david Koresh's use the same book. That is no deterrent to mans agenda. During the crusades, Christians used the book to justify wars and killings. A book that can be intrepreted to suit ones need is no deterrant to mans agenda. Sometimes it is rather a justification.

The problem is you at the start make an assumption that God gave us the Book and you base it upon the Book. That is circular reasoning. Even the Book testifies that is not his perfect will. I use writings not for proof but only because you may require them. Exodus 20:19
And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

God has always 'been willing to speak directly to his children but they are filled with guilt and fearful and not willing to hear him. So they find a go between instead of their true inheiritance. Jesus tried to tell us this when he said the holy spirit will teach you and John said that you need no man to teach you for the annointing will teach you all things.
Also it was phrophecised of a new Testament/covenant
Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Father and son relationship which Jesus ushered in to his people was to be a direct communications not through the dead letters of a book but rather comeing bodly through faith direct to the throne of God. As Jesus spoke and heard from his Father, we are also to do the same as sons who are led by his spirit. The book is not evidence of God. His presence in you is evidence of God. A Book can prove nothing of God, it can only point, but a living spirit of God will leave no question to the contrary. The Book is a product of men and their agenda even though it contains inspired writings. God does not need a book to communicate. His omnipresent spirit is everywhere and available at all times to all who hold no obstacles in front of his light which is his truth. Obstacles such as unforgiveness, judgements, measures, contrary beliefs, guilt, condemnation, and anything else not founded in love.

Love in Christ,
JM
 
Joseph you claim Jesus is spirit.. In saying that I take it to mean you dont believe He was resurrected.. or that He has a physical body.

John 20:26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Sounds a little more than just Spirit... and you dont see Jesus contradicting Thomas calling Him God.

Then again you dont believe the bible..

Street as interesting as it is to read this conversation between the two of you.. you cant discuss reasonably with someone that doesnt hold scripture as fact or as a valid reference for beliefs..
 
z"The problem with answering unrelated questions to the thread is that your mind will then compartmentalize me under a label. The mind does this as a natural function. Then you will assume you understand where I am coming from when you actually do not. Things aren't as simple as liberal/conservative, pre-trib/post-trib, christian sect, etc etc. if you get the gist of what I mean. My religious views are very flexible as I have found that to be rigid in ones views blinds one to self-evident truth before us. Yes, I have a realtionship with God that does not require a Bible though much of what is revealed to me agrees with much of it. It also agrees with saying of truth in other religions. God is as you know not limited to a book and his 1st choice is to speak to us directly. (The mount story) (the holy spirit your teacher) (etc)

Ok, with that understanding ... shoot"


Hey Joesph, The bible tells us to test everything that is said and by nature of the brain make decisions about what is said. How do we test people
1 john 4:1-6

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Yes I agree there is other "self evident truths about morality" in other religions but that is because we have a GOd given conscience. THe difference is that Christianity says you cannot earn heaven yourself because you have sinned, but only through the grace of God done by the atoning work on the cross and the all others say you can earn it on your own which is embeded with pride and arrogance which spits in face of Jesus.
 
"Having a Book will not prevent men from having an agenda. Most cults like david Koresh's use the same book. That is no deterrent to mans agenda. During the crusades, Christians used the book to justify wars and killings. A book that can be intrepreted to suit ones need is no deterrant to mans agenda. Sometimes it is rather a justification"


Having a book does prevent agendas. If you notice those with agendas may try to justify themselves with one verse or pick and choose verses they like,(taken out of context) but if you notice they always contradict other scriputre. That is why the Catholics would not allow people to read the word because then people would realize the truth and this is why the Bible was chained up. Its not the other way around.

"The problem is you at the start make an assumption that God gave us the Book and you base it upon the Book. That is circular reasoning. Even the Book testifies that is not his perfect will. I use writings not for proof but only because you may require them. Exodus 20:19
And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die."



Exodus 20:19 has nothing to do with the inspired scripture. I have no idea where you got the line before that one.


"Obstacles such as unforgiveness, judgements, measures, contrary beliefs, guilt, condemnation, and anything else not founded in love."


I would love to tackle more but I gotta go. maybe later. One last thing...God is more then love, he is Holy and Good. GOd cannot turn the check on sin due to his Justice and Goodness. He will not let sin go without there being a penatly. This is love. That yet will we were still sinners Christ died for us. Without these so called obstacles of Judgement and justice for sin then the Biblical and true meaning of Love is robbed of its depth. Christ takes away the guilt, judgement,sin,etc on the Cross. GOd himself humbling himself to his own sinful creation to die for our rebellion! This is not some shallow love, this is amazing! GOd Bless DJ
 
Faithfulservant said:
Joseph you claim Jesus is spirit.. In saying that I take it to mean you dont believe He was resurrected.. or that He has a physical body.

John 20:26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Sounds a little more than just Spirit... and you dont see Jesus contradicting Thomas calling Him God.

Then again you dont believe the bible..

Street as interesting as it is to read this conversation between the two of you.. you cant discuss reasonably with someone that doesnt hold scripture as fact or as a valid reference for beliefs..
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Faithfulservant,
If you are going to quote me as saying something then quote me by pasteing in MY words not yours. Then I will answer your response after you have quoted me accurately and in correct format cause personally I don't recall saying "Jesus is spirit" because on the contrary you can quote me saying "Jesus was flesh" and be accurate.

Love in Christ,
JM
 
streetbob2006 said:
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit
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1 John 4 is one of my favorite chapters of the Bible. I think it's helpful to give the entire chapter, as it is in the part not quoted above that John tells us how to recognize the Spirit:


7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother. (1 John 4)
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Jesus, as God, is Love. :)



(sorry for all the red...I should just put the whole thing in rad and be done with it!)
 
streetbob2006 said:
z
Joseph said -"The problem with answering unrelated questions to the thread is that your mind will then compartmentalize me under a label. The mind does this as a natural function. Then you will assume you understand where I am coming from when you actually do not. Things aren't as simple as liberal/conservative, pre-trib/post-trib, christian sect, etc etc. if you get the gist of what I mean. My religious views are very flexible as I have found that to be rigid in ones views blinds one to self-evident truth before us. Yes, I have a realtionship with God that does not require a Bible though much of what is revealed to me agrees with much of it. It also agrees with saying of truth in other religions. God is as you know not limited to a book and his 1st choice is to speak to us directly. (The mount story) (the holy spirit your teacher) (etc)

Ok, with that understanding ... shoot"

Streetbob says:
Hey Joesph, The bible tells us to test everything that is said and by nature of the brain make decisions about what is said. How do we test people
1 john 4:1-6

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Yes I agree there is other "self evident truths about morality" in other religions but that is because we have a GOd given conscience. THe difference is that Christianity says you cannot earn heaven yourself because you have sinned, but only through the grace of God done by the atoning work on the cross and the all others say you can earn it on your own which is embeded with pride and arrogance which spits in face of Jesus.
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You can include me on your quote from John so what is the problem? I have not denied Jesus has come in the flesh or that he was the Christ that was to come. Since this thread is about the word of God, you still haven't showed me one NT writing that without a doubt testifies that all the books of the NT are "the word of God" but I am still waiting on one. That they 'contain' inspired writings I am in no doubt. That every word in them is written and authored by God is the real question that requires at least internal testimony or claim within. The one you gave previously referenced the OT because no NT existed at the time and Jesus never is recorded as telling his disciples to write a collection of books for a New Testament. His NT was in his life and manifestation of the Christ and is written on our hearts as we realize our hope of glory (Christ in us). Col. 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

And further more from the OT :
Jeremiah 31:31-33
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This is the New Testament promised and it is written on the pages of my heart. There were no instructions in the OT to write a NT book. It was to be put in our hearts by the spirit of Christ, the anointing of God.

Love in Christ,
JM
 
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lunamoth said:
1 John 4 is one of my favorite chapters of the Bible. I think it's helpful to give the entire chapter, as it is in the part not quoted above that John tells us how to recognize the Spirit:


Jesus, as God, is Love. :)

(sorry for all the red...I should just put the whole thing in rad and be done with it!)
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Thanks for the wonderful post luna,

I think that your quote said it well. Somehow it is missing from my quote of yours. Anyway, I concur that love is the real test and might I add greater than any words that come out of our mouth.

Love in Christ,
JM
 
Streetbob said:
Streetbob says to Joseph :
Hey Joesph, The bible tells us to test everything that is said and by nature of the brain make decisions about what is said. How do we test people
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Streetbob,

Where does the Bible say to test EVERYTHING that is said?

Talk about me twisting :) :) ...
If you are referring to where John says to believe not every spirit but to try or (test) the spirits which you have referenced above in your post. By that test, you have tried my spirit. I confess that and I pass. Does that mean that every word I say is true... Of course not. Do you try or test every word.... Of course not. You love and do not measure others and you wait on God to quicken the truth. If I say something, you need not test it. It is just something I said. If you want more detail, you ask. There is no need to judge or measure. If it is truth a seed will be planted and when you are ready it will surface. The same goes for the things you say to me. I don't need to judge your words. They will stand or fall on their own. Your spirit is good so why should I test all your words. Until they are quickened by the holy spirit they are dead anyway. With spiritual things, accepting words as truth before God quickens them by choosing to believe words on advice other than direct knowledge from God merely adds a veil before ones eyes. It is good for one to always wait on God to quicken them first. Just some thoughts for you to consider. No decision has to be made on them. In time, they will stand or fall.

Love in Christ,
JM
 
The NT scripture? 2 Tim 3:16
2 Peter 3:16 again distorting to their own destruction implies it has authority and probobaly since the word "graphe" also refers to the OLd Testament scripture there probably is a better connection then what you are giving me. (probably calling it scripture)I however am talking Greek next year at school and we be able to make my own decisions.

2 peter 1:20 which means any written or oral communication of God.

2 TImothy 3:16 (theopneustos) God breathed out

1 Corith. 2:12-14 This is what we speak , not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual wisdom. The man without the spirit does not except the things from the spirit of GOd for they are foolishness to him...

Rev 2:1-3, Rev 22:18 If Paul teaches them by the spirit, then it must be from GOd, it cannot be partially true for scripture is inspired.


In Jeremiah 31 it is refering to the Law and not the OT or NT. The Holy spirit will dwell within man and the law will be on their hearts not the NT. This neither denies or accepts the writting of the NT.
 
streetbob2006 said:
The NT scripture? 2 Tim 3:16
2 Peter 3:16 again distorting to their own destruction implies it has authority and probobaly since the word "graphe" also refers to the OLd Testament scripture there probably is a better connection then what you are giving me. (probably calling it scripture)I however am talking Greek next year at school and we be able to make my own decisions.

2 peter 1:20 which means any written or oral communication of God.

2 TImothy 3:16 (theorists) God breathed out

1 Corith. 2:12-14 This is what we speak , not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual wisdom. The man without the spirit does not except the things from the spirit of GOd for they are foolishness to him...

Rev 2:1-3, Rev 22:18 If Paul teaches them by the spirit, then it must be from GOd, it cannot be partially true for scripture is inspired.


In Jeremiah 31 it is refering to the Law and not the OT or NT. The Holy spirit will dwell within man and the law will be on their hearts not the NT. This neither denies or accepts the writting of the NT.
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Glad to hear you are taking Greek. It will probably clear up a lot for you if you remain open.

2 Peter 1:20 merely says that prophecy of the scripture is of no private interpretation. It was only applicable to the OT. That by no means applies to a NT that never even existed or was touted as such until hundreds of years later after the writings that appeared as letters only. And in them is found no claim that all the words are from God.

2 tim 3:16 Again this writing refers to OT scripture written or oral but no claim is made that the epistle to timothy is either.

1 Cor 2:12-14 It would be foolish on ones part to think that every word Paul is recorded speaking or writing in a letter is from God. That he spoke things he received from God and included some of the things in the letters is not in question. The question is "Are all things said in the NT words received from God" The answer is obviously no if you read it all. Paul didn't even know that or instruct anyone to use his letters to be a New Testament. In them was much wisdom but also his opinions and views at the time.

Rev 2:1-3 What has that got to do with supporting all the words of Paul's letters as scripture or from God! If you are trying to make a case, I'm sorry but it is quite weak. Perhaps after your Greek class you will provide something more concrete. A little Hebrew would also help if you desire to put your total trust in the Bible.

Jeremiah- Not so as you say. He references the Old Covenant, that is the OT which at the time was called the 'book of laws' . By the same Hebrew rational the new covenant was to be written on mens hearts.
Jeremiah 31:31-33
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: [33]
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

His Hebrew word for law was 'torwah' or Torah. It was both oral and written and included it all. (not just 10 commandments) The word meant God's 'precepts' and that is the NT and it is indeed written on the hearts of those who look for it there.
Here we see it again referenced in the letter to the Hebrews.
Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
The word covenant is the same as testament using the Greek word
diatheke, dee-ath-ay'-kay; from Greek 1303 (diatithemai); properly a disposition, i.e. (special) a contract (especially a devisory will) :- covenant, testament.

Love in Christ,
JM
 
Hey Joesph, I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this also. The OT never claimed to be scripture yet in the New both Jesus and the NT writers claim it be scirpture. It would be hard for me to believe that after the OT which points to CHrist, there would not be a NT in which explains more about the CHrist and with no authority, IF Jesus is really God which I believe him to be I would obviously think he could reveal himself in a book through the Holy Spirit. In fact there would be no general knowledge of him without it. THere is no way empirically I can prove it is the word of GOd and there is no way you can disprove it. I have faith in one view and you in the another. THis is where I will let it stand. God Bless DJ
 
JosephM said:
Hi streetbob,
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Unfortunately the word in Greek translated here as scripture is 'graphe' which in the Greek means document. Peter calls Pauls writings "epistles" from the greek word epistole which means letter. That's what Paul called them also. Sure the word 'graphe' can be used to refer to OT scripture but there was no such thing as NT scripture recognized when Peter is reported saying this so one must assume he is not equating Pauls letters to be formal scripture but only that his epistles or letters have in them things hard to understand as are things in other documents which could include scripture.

Col. 4:16
And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

Paul called it an epistle here also. It was inspired. He was a head over churches and he wrote them a letter to encourage them and instruct them as the head of any group of churches would do. But he never called them scripture for a reason. You guess why?

There is a reason that there are so many different versions and manuscripts but you assume they match. We have over 1000 denominations of Christians today. You won't find agreement there what makes you think you eill find agreement in the manuscripts?

Love in Christ,
JM
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Hey Joesph,

I studied a little Greek found out that the word "graphe" which is in 2 Peter is used 51 times in the NT (refering to scripture) and used by Jesus to qoute the OT. I also found out that it can mean "holy scripture" and not just a document. It is also interesting that in 2 PEter he uses graphe (which is also used in 2 Tim 3:16) instead of "gramma" which would be a better translation if he just wanted to use the word document or writting. It seems that Peter called PAuls letters scripture and not just a letter. Just thought to throw it out there.
 
streetbob2006 said:
Hey Joesph,

I studied a little Greek found out that the word "graphe" which is in 2 Peter is used 51 times in the NT (refering to scripture) and used by Jesus to qoute the OT. I also found out that it can mean "holy scripture" and not just a document. It is also interesting that in 2 PEter he uses graphe (which is also used in 2 Tim 3:16) instead of "gramma" which would be a better translation if he just wanted to use the word document or writting. It seems that Peter called PAuls letters scripture and not just a letter. Just thought to throw it out there.
Click to expand...

If you go back and re-read my post you will find I said "Sure the word 'graphe' can be used to refer to OT scripture but there was no such thing as NT scripture recognized when Peter is reported saying this so one must assume he is not equating Pauls letters to be formal scripture but only that his epistles or letters have in them things hard to understand as are things in other documents which could include scripture."

So you see I wasn't saying it couldn't be used to refer to old testament documents but the word did not equate authority to Paul's letters. Otherwise Paul would not have called them "epistole" letters as did Peter also. Peter was merely saying in Pauls letters are things hard to understand as that unlearned people have trouble with as they do with other writings. If Peter meant it to be the same authority of OT writings he would have said so and referred to them other than as Pauls letters.

Good try Streetbob, but you offer nothing but wishful thinking.

Love in Christ,
JM
 
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