Is humanity less than 10,00 years old?

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by China Cat Sunflower, Dec 19, 2006.

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Is the hjman species less than 10,000 years old?

  1. Yes. Less than 10,000

    32.0%
  2. No. More than 10,000

    68.0%
  1. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    And when "we" gained rational thought, we separated ourselves from G-d (Adam hid himself, and then covered his nakedness). G-d cast Adam and Eve from the Garden, and the gulf between rationally thinking humans and G-d has been widening ever since. G-d has made effort (how often is a matter of discussion) to bridge the divide on occasion over time, but not all individuals are "tuned" to this effort and are therefore not readily able to reach across the divide. Fingers and moons, eating and washing, literalists and symbolists.

    New Age mamby-pamby notwithstanding.
     
  2. xpdnc12

    xpdnc12 New Member

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    How old was the tree that the apple grew from?

    The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter how old humanity appeared.
     
  3. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    I think postmaster has spelled it out, in calling attention to Atlantis, and Mu, or Lemuria. Radio carbon dating at least points us in the right direction. Perhaps other means will come along, more accurate than this, and push the needle back to a million years more more. Personally, I'd say 5 million, although admittedly, some of the Bible's references to `giants' hints as far back as 18 million years. This, of course, is just for a physical being. Humanity, on our planet, may have originated several score million years ago.

    Spiritually, we predate this Solar Cycle - best taken up on another thread, since it is Hindu cosmology which puts this at 4.32 billion years X 2, or 8+ billion years ago. Then again, the Biblical figure 4,320 is obviously, quite clearly, borrowed from this system, along with a deep symbolism with which Kabbalists are familiar.

    But again, it's back to How do we define Humanity? Science still suggests that the animal came first, and homo sapiens evolved from an apelike ancestor, while esoteric spiritual teachings tell us that HUMANITY predates all other life on this planet ... or at least, our Spiritual predecessors do. This, as so many Christians often point out, would be the `Angels,' who "fell." ;)

    Without them, we could not have been Created, for without them, no thing was made, that was made.

    ~Zag
     
  4. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    GE 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

    We were created as creators. I cannot believe it took thousands of years for man to go from those wonderful cave paintings, with the science needed to make the pigments, to writing and keeping records.
    Lamech's sons are only four chapters into Genesis and already they are messing with metal, music and domesticated herds, (and polygamy). The second poem in the bible is a war song. Gen 4:19-24.

    He built us very well.

    I take the creation story as a recent fact.

    God created man with the potential of three sizes. Giants, normals and pygmies. All three are still around.

    Is 4,320 a biblical figure?

    john.
     
  5. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    The irony between the "creation theory" and the "evolution theory" is that they both follow the exact same chronological sequence of events (one simply moves apparently faster than the other in time). In both creation and evolution, man is the last to be made as a homosapien sapien.

    Animals predate man by several days (if you will) in creation theory, just like animals predate man in evolution by several billion years. But in both theories, man gives name to every creature on earth...

    And creation theory gives us two versions of the beginning. One is more or less generic, while the other zooms in and focusses on two people in particular. In otherwords, one version is "objective and distant" while the second becomes personal and piques our interest for the "human impact story" it tells...

    ever consider that? ;)

    v/r

    Joshua
     
  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Namaste Q, little stretch doncha think?

    Gen 1 Heaven and earth first...prior to sun and moon... earth covered in water...and then land appeared...plants next and then stars and constellations...add in fish and birds next...then we get land animals and man...more correctly male and female he created them ( a simultaneous thing)

    So human last...that is our agreement on sequence...

    Science would say stars (light first)... molten balls, solidifying solids, water condensing (land first)... microscopic organisms sea then land....plants sea then land..... animals sea then land then air, and man. (easily stand corrected here but order quite different than Gen 1)

    Gen 2 Heavens and earth....dry earth ball, no plants, no rain, stream popped up and watered earth....then made man...then made the garden (plants), then decided to make a helper...which were all the animals of the earth which were brought to man to be named, he tried all these but none were suitable (is this where the interest is piqued when Adam was trying to find a helper??), this is when we take a rib and make woman...just like evolution.

    As I see it Gen 1, Gen 2, and evolution are three distinctly different sequences...
     
  7. aburaees

    aburaees Member

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    Wil,

    It's all about perspective....

    "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth". So according to the very first verse in the Bible ALL sources of light (Stars, Sun, etc) were created in the beginning. So yes, light WAS first, scientifically AND Biblically.

    The rest of the creation account is all about perspective, how things would appear to an Earth-Stationed observer. The light appears when it finally manages to penetrate the atmosphere, and the sources of the light appear when the atmosphere has thinned sufficiently for us to see them.

    As for Genesis 2, I don't know why you think there were no plants/veg before God made man. What Genesis 2 DOES tell us is that;

    "the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:"

    This was BEFORE God made Man.

    We are simply being told where the plants/veg came from, and how it was maintained, before God caused it to rain, and before God had Man cultivate the land.

    The Garden that was planted later was a new addition. A little niche in a world that was already blooming with life. And God put Man in the Garden. God didn't stop creating at the end of day six. After the seventh day was ended a new week began :)
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Namaste aburraees, yes tiz perspective and I'd love to hear yours...while I read it all metaphysically and metaphorically and don't contemplate how their could be a day prior to an earth's rotation... the book does say Gen14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

    So here we have in Gen1 on the 4th day all the stars and constellations moon and sun...completely separate from the light of the first day...[/quote]
    So you are saying it all happened on the first day, despite it saying here he made them on the fourth day?
    I beg to differ, aren't you quoting again from Gen 1? (the first chapter)In Gen 2 (the second chapter) it specically says no plants.... 4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
    When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- 7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. 8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden (First mention of plants in Gen2) in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food.

    If you go through Gen 1 and Gen 2 and make yourself a chart day by day...we have the differing creations...the Yahwists and Elohists, the Bethlehem interpretation and the Jerusalem interpretation...

    I have no issues with either...I was simply pointing out that I do see the differences...as can anyone...and a difference between biblical creation and evolutionary science. I also understand the stories have a purpose and I enjoy them.
     
  9. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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  10. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Interesting...seems aburaees and me were on similar wave lengths here.:eek: :D
     
  11. didymus

    didymus New Member

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    I go with the theory that we started in Africa about 130,000 years ago and migrated north, east and west. as man traveled and habitated different regions and climates we took on different physical characteristics.
     
  12. didymus

    didymus New Member

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    For those that don't believe the above theory, where do you propose that all the races came from and how this came about?
     
  13. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    130,000 years is enough to change men, when the rest of the life on earth took millions of years to evolve? Short time for a man to have a permanent tan...don't you think? Or in the opposite, short time for man to become pale, plus the change in other features in man...such as longer legs and bigger chests, or thicker lips and blue eyes, or straight or curly hair...?

    Too many variables to have been evolved within 130,000 years. 130,000,000 years...maybe, or something intervened and it all happened at once...hmmm
     
  14. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Some accounts propose that several score millions of years were involved in the first two stages (or `races') of Human development. These two stages have terminologies that vary, depending on which esoteric tradition you are referencing. The Kabbalistic tradition, the Mystery Teachings of Ancient Greece (and Egypt), and the Vedic Wisdom of India, for example, each provide accounts that are interwoven with mythology, astronomy, astrology and a more conventional anthropology.

    The Popul Voh, sacred wisdom of the Mayans (Quiché), will also provide insight, but we could probably spend a lifetime and still not have a complete or accurate picture. Edgar Cayce, the `Sleeping Prophet,' gave indications in trance as to our pre-Atlantean origin, and these agree in broadest outline with the above sources, as well as with the teachings of the Wisdom Tradition (or Ageless Wisdom).

    None of these accounts will be found incompatible with Christianity in terms of the general idea that all of Creation is God's handiwork. The differences will come in terms of the order of evolution, or both spiritual and material development (as people seem to be focused on in this discussion). Yet there is also a critical difference in these teachings when we try and line them up with current evolutionary theory as taught by mainstream science in the classroom. The latter tells us that we have an apelike ancestor. The Wisdom Tradition maintains that this was an offshoot, a de-evolution of the earlier races of Humanity. Many millions of years thus go by, from Humanity's first incarnation upon this planet to the much later inception of the anthropoid ape.

    Our original human presence on the planet has been called by some, the Polarian race. The name refers to the homeland of this portion of Humanity, which was (and is) in the region of the north pole. It has also been termed `the Imperishable Sacred Land' (or sveta-dvipa in Hindusim, Mt. Meru, Shambhala). The second race was called the Hyporborean by Theosophists, who borrowed the term from the Greek mystery religions. We can learn much about these earliest races from Norse mythology, as well, with their legends of frost giants, Asgaard, and the Bifrost Bridge. Read about Hyperborea at Wikipedia. :)

    Like the first race, the Hyperboreans lived in the extreme north, inhabiting ethereal - though physical - bodies. There was no intellect present in these beings as we understand the term (except as a latent spark). Though spiritual, having no body of flesh & blood, they were neither moral nor immoral. They were innocent, and thus are symbolized in Christianity by Edenic, pre-Fall Humanity.

    The Secret Doctrine of Theosophy speaks at length about the first two races, from pages 66-131. Many hundreds of pages are devoted to what happens next, taking us into the present. ;) And a glimpse of the future is also provided, since God's Plan, like a blueprint, must include a finished result ... and is not simply be a random stab in the dark, or afterthought. :eek:

    The third race of Humanity dates back over 20 million years (perhaps several times this duration). It was during this period when Humanity, as it now stands, might be said to have "begun." We became fully dense, physical flesh & blood. The mammalian species began to develop also, at this stage, and if we look, science will confirm that the mammalian evolution (Cenozoic Era) was not until 65mya, and after the dinosaurs ... yet clearly a gradual evolution. This corresponds with the teachings of the Mystery Religions (and the Vedas).

    But physically, we were crude, gigantic, animal-men ... not the more refined forms of today. Spiritually, we were unaware. Intellectually, we were not any smarter than the average domesticated animal ... at best. And this is why what happened ~21,688,418 years ago is of such great significance today! :)

    Who was standing there, with the proverbial chronometer, to record what happened? Who indeed? ;)

    I offer several links in this post, in case anyone is interested in chronologies, or in reading additional teachiings and commentary on the teaching that is provided, in summary, or broadest, symbolic outline, in Genesis. Beyond stating that God is the Divine Architect, as well as the Divine Genius (or Source, Inspiration) for all that is, has been, or ever shall be ... what could we possibly hope to get out of quibbling over a few thousand, million/billion years, etc?

    Does the Creationist believe s/he can disprove the evidence of science? We should hope not. It is wasted breath, time, effort, energy. Does the proponent of Darwinian evolutionary theory, or its modern-day descendents, believe s/he has somehow discovered proof positive that no Deity (or Divine Powers) exist(s)? This too, should be given up as a colossal waste of time.

    Most of the people I know are able to embrace both the reality of a Divine Creator, as well as the amazing Plan which this Creator must obviously, surely has for the well-being of all ... including learning, growth, and even the realization of "all that we are meant to be" (to borrow the US Army's slogan from awhile back).

    This is not meeting in the middle, so much as it is accepting that we are looking at a false dichotomy. There are a lot of these, when it comes to science and religion, or "faith and reason." But it is not God who is the author of confusion. We are. :eek:

    ~~~~~

    If you want to glimpse an overview of the idea of Seven successive races, or stages of Human evolution on this planet, I recommend the brief entries from an online glossary, found here, under Root Race, and the sub-entires for First, Second, Third, Fourth and Fifth. The Sixth and Seventh Races, though not yet evolved, also have entries.

    Peace,

    ~Zagreus epiphanos
     
  15. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    A simpler way to answer your question, didymus, would be to state that I believe every single aspect of present conditions on the globe are the result of the Divine Architect(s). The term is accurate both singular, and plural. In the singular, we can acknowledge Highest Deity as the originator of all of Creation. In the plural, we can focus on the Agents, and agencies, by and through Whom and which this Creator-God works ... and in the last analysis, this INCLUDES Humanity. (critical point here)

    The complete whole, existing for God in a moment, in a flash, as a Divine Idea - completely transcendent of time, space, and all that we know of as ideation or thought (save God's) ... is probably something pretty darn beautiful, and awe-inspiring, to behold! ;) :p :)

    It's just that it takes so many billions upon billions of years to unfold, and our tiny lives usually offer us only so much of the puzzle. :eek:

    Also, to be honest, I am left with only puzzlement, confusion and uncertainty when I try to look for equivalent Christian teachings ... to what I have studied from other traditions, or in the Ageless Wisdom. My unfamiliarity with the Old Testament, for example, is a serious liability. And I am of the opinion that Christ's Mission was cut short before additional foundation could be laid, last go-round. That, and the esoteric side of things is just not usually met with a warm welcome - by so many people, for so many different reasons!

    Isn't what matters most, though, the present (double entendre, if you insist)? I mean, it's neat to study, but from a certain point of view, who cares whether we're 10K years old, or 10 billion??? What difference does it make? I mean, for you, for me, for the kids who are taught one thing in school, vs. the kids who are home-schooled by Christian Fundamentalists insisting on a different set of dates? Really!!! What is the difference?

    This thread could become more useful, imo, if we looked at it this way. Otherwise, it's back to the silly Monty Python "I want to buy an argument" skit kind of thing ... and only so much fluff. I just wonder things like, does it piss the fundies off when they see the Geico caveman commercials, cuz those are the funniest things on TV these days!!! :D

    I mean that though - if that doesn't make a Creationist smile regardless, then they have taken this whole thing WAY too seriously! :p

    And for the record, when I think of the Australian aboriginals, standing there on one foot, participating in the Dreamtime (I was just listening to digeradoo music) ... I am filled with nothing but respect, awe and wonderment - for the God Who brought them, like me, into being. Even if their form predates mine by millions of years, they are God's Creation equally as I am, as we all are.

    ~Zag
     
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    As we humans are all the same species and same race...our minute differences in body shape, color of hair, facial features could have evolved quite rapidly and naturally...

    Yes getting pale is a mutant gene that was developed and thrived in Europe as the darker skin had issues with absorbtion of vitamin d in less light...

    Look at domesticated dogs....all those varieties have come about in a short amount of time... shockingly different hair color, skin color, body shape and facial features...I'd say the differences in dogs is much more dramatic than the differences in humans...

    And a lot less than 130,000 years...and we humans have a larger tendency to mate with ones that look like us dogs don't care as much...so all breeding of specific dogs was by humans...and a combination of accidents...
     
  17. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Hey! Go after the Z guy! :confused: :eek: :eek:
     
  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Namaste Q,

    My understanding that these changes could have occurred in 130,000 years does not discount the possibility that we as a race could be descendents of those 130,000,000 or billion years old...

    I've gotta find the quote of that Catholic priest who when confronted with (paraphrased from memory), "What if we determine that the earth was populated by aliens from another planet, galaxy or universe?" he replied, "No one said the garden of eden was on this earth!"
     
  19. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    I remember the quote and the priest...;)
     
  20. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    Ok here's my theory. There were at least eight people who survived the flood. Noah, his wife, his sons Shem, Ham and Japheth, and their wives.

    Shem was "African-looking." Ham was "Asian-looking." Japheth was "European-looking." Their wives had other extreme features. These six "primary-coloured" individuals went on to breed a wide variety of races and ethnic groups. After a few generations, someone decided to build the Tower of Babel. God confused the languages, the families became segregated and hocus pocus, we have the races and nationalities of today.:D

    Also, semen contains millions of sperm cells, so variety isn't that hard to achieve.
     

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