pattimax
Somewhat returning
This is a ludicrous argument. Child molesters are criminals, not fence-dwelling priests.
Two mommies is 'too many,' Dobson writes in Time column
- Thread starter BlaznFattyz
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This is a ludicrous argument. Child molesters are criminals, not fence-dwelling priests.
pattimax
Somewhat returning
er
Thankfully, we did!(Though there isn't anything quite like living by candlelight for a little bit, with no TV or stereo or anything but the surrounding woods.)
We were discussing the interface of science and religion, and how it is unfortunate that in the mainstream public Christian view as well as certain religiously ignorant scientific circles, people of both sides see them as polar opposites. I've been in churches where all scientists and academics were literally condemned from the pulpit in a sermon to justify ignorance and a lack of learning or study. Likewise, I've been in meetings among colleagues in which I have been told that all Christians (yeah, me included) are "stupid" and "irrational."
Science and religion are interfacing. In the United States, educating Christians has backslid, but we as Christians should not have as our primary focus this emergence of anti-intellectualism. Yes, lots of mistakes were made and we have the cults to show for it, but dwelling on past mistakes will get us absolutely nowhere. I am a fairly new Christian and I absolutely love the amount of information out there. Most of the churches that I have been involved in (4) have been very education focused and pretty open to new ideas. The one church that I encountered that was not ready for change was pretty harmless and probably glad I left. I know I was.
pattimax
Somewhat returning
I find spiritual growth does occur when we do our "job" as Christians which is to tell people the "good news" about how wonderfully freeing Christ is when we freely accept the gift that our awesome God has given us.
It is not cya. (A form of self-centeredness.)
pattimax
Somewhat returning
BTW- the bible is beieng translated into different languages all the time.
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
pattimax said:
I think you've misunderstood my point. What I was saying was that rules can cause bad behaviour. Because ministers are required to be celibate in some denominations, some ministers that have never been able to handle their sexual urges feel compelled to act on them in extraordinary ways. It's probably a personal problem that they keep to themselves. They can't marry so that have to prey on little kids. They develop unhealthy sexual urges. Eventually the problem may become so big it pushes them to paedophilia. The celibacy is as good as useless.
The fence I was talking about was whether or not ministers should be celibate or whether they should be allowed to marry.
I wasn't talking about the fence of crossing the line to abuse children. Wrong fence!!!!
If you see the fence I was talking about, you will probably realise what I was hinting at. It's not just the priests that have the problem, but the way the whole establishment is set up. The community or congregation has certain expectations of a minister . . . Being a pastor or priest is a very hard and boring job. Think about who you have to look after, what jobs you do. The divorce rate among married ministers is very, very high. You work long hours with little contact with your spouse. You go around healing other people, fixing other people's personal problems, but what about your own? You have to organise meetings and sermons. Now think about how the celibate ministers feel about never being allowed to touch a woman. Sexual desire comes naturally, but if a priest has to remain celibate, you're telling him to suppress something that's natural. You can forbid him from making love to a woman, but you can't stop the sexual fantasies. Not everyone who goes into ministry is up to the job.
A lot of ministers "burn out" and need help. They are no less human than we are. A lot of these people are overworked. They don't have time for normal social, interpersonal relations. A survey revealed that at least 15-20% of married ministers commit adultery. Around 50-60% of married ministers get divorced. Pretty high, eh? Ministry can destroy people, so you can just imagine why child abuse perpetrated by priests happens. Link to problems confronted by clergy:
Hard To Be Holy
It's because of what the church expects of ministers that they can be driven toward bad behaviours. A lot of ministers are low paid and have very little self-esteem. They are expected to preach, to tell people how to behave, what to believe. But I believe it can be just a show to impress us -- to let us believe that all is well in their minds and personal lives. Ministers have to be creative, to have a lot of ideas because they have to come up with ways to lead the community. But here's the thing -- I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up being very confused and disturbed people because of what they were expected to do.
It doesn't just end in divorce and sexual misconduct. Life is so bad for some ministers that they start dabbling in drugs and crime. They'd never admit it to us, but some do. Domestic violence is also possible. The life of ministers, pastors and priests. How much do we really know about them? Is it all just a facade? There are a lot of blessed ministers, but some are living a lie -- a curse.
Yes child molesters are criminals, but who said we were better than criminals? We live in a wealthy society but most of us are too consumed in minding our own business to help others with their problems. If there are criminals in our society, I would say it's our fault. We just didn't care enough. So who are the "real criminals"? Who robbed society of justice? Crime comes from ignorance and neglect. Everything bad, negative and destructive in our society is partly our fault. To compare ourselves to these people by calling them "criminals" is to be ignorant, arrogant and self-righteous. If I was in their position I would probably have done the same thing. To me it really doesn't matter if they're "criminals." It's this attitude we have that makes them criminals. We're responsible for the crimes committed by others.
Concerning the fence on which they walk, ministers are expected to make the rules -- to know right from wrong -- to be leaders. We may think that holiness comes from rules, but there's the danger of manipulating ourselves into thinking we're holier when we have not really dealt with our personal problems. That's my criticism of a rule that bans ministers from marriage. Being a married minister may be hard, but stopping someone from having healthy sexual encounters can also be damaging. Forced abstinence has its dangers.
Do a search on the Internet. You may discover what I mean. The minister can be found doing far worse crimes than the lay-person. Some ministers turn into "criminals," "adulterers" and "perverts" by the time they finish their ministry.
Didn't Paul, Peter and James warn us about such people?
But . . . as I said, I think we need to feel sorry for these "ministers." Their crimes are our neglect. We failed to look after our leaders. We were too selfish to care about them.
Life is hard for the minister. We should thank God if we have a good one.
pattimax
Somewhat returning
The community or congregation has certain expectations of a minister . . . Being a pastor or priest is a very hard and boring job. Think about who you have to look after, what jobs you do. The divorce rate among married ministers is very, very high. Sexual desire comes naturally, but if a priest has to remain celibate, you're telling him to suppress something that's natural. You can forbid him from making love to a woman, but you can't stop the sexual fantasies. Not everyone who goes into ministry is up to the job.
A lot of ministers "burn out" and need help. They are no less human than we are. A lot of these people are overworked. They don't have time for normal social, interpersonal relations. A survey revealed that at least 15-20% of married ministers commit adultery. Around 50-60% of married ministers get divorced. Pretty high, eh? Ministry can destroy people, so you can just imagine why child abuse perpetrated by priests happens. Link to problems confronted by clergy:
Yes child molesters are criminals, but who said we were better than criminals? We live in a wealthy society but most of us are too consumed in minding our own business to help others with their problems. If there are criminals in our society, I would say it's our fault. We just didn't care enough. So who are the "real criminals"? Who robbed society of justice? Crime comes from ignorance and neglect. Everything bad, negative and destructive in our society is partly our fault. To compare ourselves to these people by calling them "criminals" is to be ignorant, arrogant and self-righteous. If I was in their position I would probably have done the same thing. To me it really doesn't matter if they're "criminals." It's this attitude we have that makes them criminals. We're responsible for the crimes committed by others.
But . . . as I said, I think we need to feel sorry for these "ministers." Their crimes are our neglect. We failed to look after our leaders. We were too selfish to care about them.
Life is hard for the minister. We should thank God if we have a good one.
Do NOT get me wrong, I am not heartless, but wouldn't it stand to reason that not everyone is cut out for the kind of ministry you're referring to? Who are we dicussing? Bored pastors? They should do something else. Celibate priests? Same. High divorce rate for married ministers? The divorce rate is high everywhere.
I am very sorry that you think society is victimizimg criminals. Where do you come up with this stuff? Our attitude makes them criminals?...
Do you not know the difference between right and wrong?
Maybe the reason they stay in the ministry is because despite all of negatives, it CAN be a very good life.
Is this true?...
Early on in the Catholic church, priests were not permitted to marry so that when they died they would leave all of their money to the church.
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
pattimax said:
Ministers whose behaviour turn criminal or foul are unlikely to have ever imagined things turning out that way. Once they entered ministry, they were probably sucked into the chain of events . . .
pattimax said:
I'm sorry for seeing things that way . . . I hope I didn't say anything untoward.
I just think criminals are misunderstood people.
I get that from personal experience.
I've made a lot of bad choices in life. There are a lot of stupid things I've done that I regret doing and people I've offended. There's no point bragging or boasting about being holy or righteous. There's no point claiming I'm better than anyone because of rules that I follow, so it's not my policy to make claims on following any. That might even be a bit phony. Instead, I think it's my humility and personality that's important. Holiness is still something I value; I do try to be "holy" and do the right thing, but I don't conform to any standard. It's entirely personal and between me and God.Here is where we might victimise criminals -- when someone breaks the law and gets a criminal record, we say, "Ok, fine. That's not my problem. That's that guy's problem." It's an insensitive, and a very selfish and arrogant attitude. But we all do it. What if, one day, we went and did the same thing? We don't really care about that person when we should. We're more concerned about our own moral integrity than that of others. We're proud of ourselves and despise others.
I really don't know if I might become a criminal one day, a future where I might start doing despicable things like taking drugs. I don't really know the future. I can picture a possible fall from grace, a downfall, a fall into a world of darkness. I could become a murderer, a thug, thief, junkie, a wife-beater, a stalker, a paedophile. It might happen to me one day. Who knows? I'm not the master of my destiny. Life can easily go . . . you know . . . haywire. Guess that's why I have to trust God with my life. So I won't start falling into . . . you know.
That's why I am no better than the criminal. I have nothing to be proud of. If in the future, I did something just as bad, I'd be a hypocrite. For me to claim to be better than them is to be arrogant -- to believe that I would never disgrace myself but committing the same crime or violating the same principles. I'm just another human being. Even if I don't become a dangerous criminal, I may do something else just as despicable.
Might I add that I was bullied in primary school and secondary school? I never had many friends. Nor did I have a social life. I realise now what it has now cost me. I know I was partly responsible. But when I was a kid, I could not have understood any better. There's a bit more to it than that, but what I will say now is that I had a disturbed childhood. You can imagine how deranged I became over the years. All of the things that "normal" people take for granted -- self-confidence, a sense of humour, social skills, etc. were things that I lacked.
It's not something I usually tell people about, explaining something that happened in the past can be difficult. I have moved on, but with some "missing pieces" in my life that need to be filled. This is what holds me back from being a "normal person." I can imagine then, that people who screw up real bad in life, people who turn to drugs, have a marriage break-up or suffer from depression, have a lot of "missing pieces" that need to be filled or restored.
All I can say is that we've all got a life story. Most people are going through a process of self-discovery. They're going through a phase where they're trying to figure out who they are as people. Sometimes during this process of discovering themselves, people form desires and wants that can lead them to dangerous places. We make choices that can ruin or destroy us. We have triumphs, but we also have failures.
I don't see the criminal as any different. To me, they're just broken people.
pattimax said:
Justifying their behaviour is not what I'm trying to do. I'm just saying we need to understand why people behave badly. Why do people lie, murder, covet, commit adultery, etc.? It's because of what people want from life. The desire is the disease. Condemn the disease, not the person. Wrongdoing is caused by what people want. But the same disease affects all of us, so we're all guilty.
Their lives are not mine, so I have no right to judge their actions. I would probably have done the same thing in their situation. I just think criminals are just misunderstood people.
Don't get me wrong. I feel sorry for them because I'm really feeling sorry for myself. What I see in them is something I see in myself. I may not be a criminal, but I am motivated by the same selfishness as they are.
No, it's not my job to justify anyone's bad behaviour. That's God's job. Everyone has a life story. Everyone makes bad choices. It's God's job to fix the problem, heal the people and make things right again. God justifies these people, not me. Hey, Pattimax . . . you know why I'm saying this. This is the meaning of Christianity. It's about how a life of sin -- a life spent missing the mark is justified by a God that makes things right again.
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
Sorry, double post.
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
Happened again. Having problems with the browser.
pattimax
Somewhat returning
.
That's why I am no better than the criminal. I have nothing to be proud of. If in the future, I did something just as bad, I'd be a hypocrite. (even worse, you would be a criminal, and yes, you would be no better than yourself.)
I'm just another human being. Even if I don't become a dangerous criminal, I may do something else just as despicable.
WHO is telling you this?
It's not something I usually tell people about, explaining something that happened in the past can be difficult.
Thank you.
Holiness is still something I value; I do try to be "holy" and do the right thing, but I don't conform to any standard. It's entirely personal and between me and God.
Don’t you think that God has very high standards? Yes forgiveness and redemption are key to salvation and the staying power of grace is permanent, but when His law is carved in stone on your heart, the incredible beauty and freedom of your life in Christ takes off.
... "Ok, fine. That's not my problem. That's that guy's problem." It's an insensitive, and a very selfish and arrogant attitude.
The truly insensitive and arrogant attitude is assuming you know how everyone else will respond. Please notice that I did not say “react”. Knee jerk reactions are really responsible for these assumptions and have no place in thinking society.
Please be careful when you say “we”.
Guess that's why I have to trust God with my life. So I won't start falling into . . . you know.
Trusting God never fails.
Might I add that I was bullied in primary school and secondary school? I never had many friends. Nor did I have a social life.
I am very, very sorry. Ignorant kids can be so cruel.
I don't see the criminal as any different. To me, they're just broken people.
You may want to try a different point of view. You do not have to stay there, just try to look at it from another angle.
The desire is the disease.
This the part of eastern philosophy and it will not work past the surface. This is another argument entirely. I will say that the disease goes much deeper. You cannot treat symptoms when you are dealing with heart disease.
Condemn the disease, not the person. Wrongdoing is caused by what people want. But the same disease affects all of us, so we're all guilty.
There is no true condemnation for those in Christ and yes, it happens that we are ultimately all sinners (if you need to play the blame game, look to Adam and Eve) but that said, you are NOT responsible for others poor choices, sorry. When the law is broken, there are consequences for it.
Their lives are not mine, so I have no right to judge their actions. No, it's not my job to justify anyone's bad behaviour. That's God's job. Everyone has a life story. Everyone makes bad choices. It's God's job to fix the problem, heal the people and make things right again. God justifies these people, not me.
When Caine murdered Abel, he said to God,“am I my brothers keeper?” Guess what? As a Christian, you are responsible for people. And your brothers and sisters in Christ are family members. You are NOT responsible for the consequences of their actions. But, rest assured, God works through you.
Hey, Pattimax . . . you know why I'm saying this. This is the meaning of Christianity. It's about how a life of sin -- a life spent missing the mark is justified by a God that makes things right again.
AMEN!
Science and religion are interfacing. In the United States, educating Christians has backslid, but we as Christians should not have as our primary focus this emergence of anti-intellectualism. Yes, lots of mistakes were made and we have the cults to show for it, but dwelling on past mistakes will get us absolutely nowhere. I am a fairly new Christian and I absolutely love the amount of information out there. Most of the churches that I have been involved in (4) have been very education focused and pretty open to new ideas. The one church that I encountered that was not ready for change was pretty harmless and probably glad I left. I know I was.
A bit presumtious of you I should think. Science is a tool, not a religious belief. Sharpening one's brain power is good but not at the cost of faith. Though faith and belief have been around since the beginning, "science is the new kid on the block".
Unlike Faith which has been cut in stone, Darwin's theories have been modified at least 25 times in the last century. But maybe this should be a topic on another thread.
v/r
Joshua
pattimax
Somewhat returning
What is your definition of "interfacing"?
kiwimac
God is NOT about Fear
Quahom1
I spent 25+ years as a Christian theologian and priest. So, you were saying?
I spent 25+ years as a Christian theologian and priest. So, you were saying?
I'm gonna get kicked for this right?
Two points of data under different formatting, meet within an interface protocol that can interpret the data between the two, for all parties to understand the meaning in their own "language". Hence no mistunderstanding, between the two parties...
Obviously you retired, or left the service of mankind. In the mean time Dr. Dobson is on to something, that I guess you do not want to hear. You really do not want to hear it seems.
Oh, by the bye, I've spent 40 years as a theologian (whether I liked it or not in the beginning). I didn't become a priest because my father warned me against it (he was about to take his vows, but sh*t happens)...he got arrested for a crime he didn't commit, the seminar knew it yet let him sit in jail and he said, "God, I love you. screw your servants." He never went back, married in high mass and had 7 kids (two died). Been married to the same girl ever since. (50 years). that is the "girl of his youth"...
Seems God made "us" too horny to be celibate, so we took on fertile wives, who are also godly. Poor Peter and Paul...we get the best of both worlds...
They got eternity minus the joy of a wife, really. So their heavenly reward must be really cool, since it is really, really cool to be loved by a woman, in the biblical sense...
And when a child is due to arrive? Oh, you expectant fathers out there can appreciate this, we are all over the place!
Gotta take care of this and that, did you get pickles, and icecream, and watermellon, and peanutbutter? Get up, there are diapers and basinettes, and oh, Christ, she's throwing up again, get the pan, and cold cloth, oh my God, she's having my child!?...oh shoot yeah, "Ok honey, here is the pan"
Yes, be there when the baby is born, oh, sh*t the baby is coming, oh God she is in pain, oh damn the baby is crying...the baby is...crying
My baby is crying (holding him/her tight, cutting the chord, washing the afterbirth off, look towards the deliverer and see fatigue and pain and joy, and what do you do?
Kiss her you fool! Wipe her forehead and temples. Make certain there is no hemoraging. make sure she is stable and safe, then do the warm thing (lay with her and the baby even though your one foot is keeping you from falling off the bed made for one.
Anything else is a cheap copy of reality.
Look what she gave you! Look what you owe her...
It's enough to make a man to swear to protect his (she is now his as well), with his life.
At least in my world this is true. I wish it so for all of you.
pattimax
Somewhat returning
I'm gonna get kicked for this right?
Two points of data under different formatting, meet within an interface protocol that can interpret the data between the two, for all parties to understand the meaning in their own "language". Hence no mistunderstanding, between the two parties...
nope.
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
pattimax said:
High standards? Hey if you want to talk about high standards, Christianity doesn't go far enough.
Judaism and Islam have much higher standards than Christianity. I would conclude then, that Christianity isn't about standards, but one's attitude in life. That said, I have no standards, I'm more concerned about having the right attitude. I know that whenever I make the wrong choice, it's not so much that I have violated some principle, or broken some rule. It's more of a problem with my attitude. So for me the idea is to have the right attitude.If I claim to have high standards, I'd be overestimating myself. That would be an overstatement. I would over-reach myself by aiming too high. Whatever measure or standard we apply to others would be applied against us. High standards for me would be the wrong attitude . . .
Who do you think God would accept? The one who is so sure of himself, because he has "high standards," or the one who's humble, honest with himself and his abilities and his shortcomings? Of course, God would choose the latter. God doesn't like the attitude of the former.
I think there was a story on this in the New Testament somewhere. Something about a Pharisee and a tax-collector . . .
That doesn't mean it's wrong to have high standards. If you think you're up to it, go for it. I won't stop you. Everyone in this world has a place. We all have strengths and weaknesses. I have my place and you have your's.
Saltmeister said:
pattimax said:
Eastern philosophy? No, that's not Eastern philosophy. That's Christianity. I really have no idea what Eastern philosophy has to say on this. I'm not talking about symptoms either, but the cause -- the disease.
This idea of evil being a disease comes from Christianity. The New Testament uses natural phenomena to conceptualise things in the physical world that also happen in the spiritual world. Disease is one example. Just as there are diseases, illnesses and sicknesses in the physical world, there are diseases, illnesses and sicknesses in the spiritual world. You have a virus or parasite that grows and spreads.
It comes from the idea that you reap what you sow. In the physical world you harvest crops that have grown from seeds you have sown. In the spiritual world, you harvest good and evil. You harvest thoughts, deeds and attitudes. Good and bad deeds and attitudes can go a long way. Even mere thoughts can have consequences. What you do can cause a chain reaction that propagates throughout the world's communities and societies and may eventually come back to hit you.
Water is depicted as a purifying agent. Hence baptism. It's also used to describe something that sustains life. That is what is meant when it's said of Jesus, "Whoever believes in him, streams of living water will flow out from within him."
pattimax
Somewhat returning
I'm gonna get kicked for this right?
Two points of data under different formatting, meet within an interface protocol that can interpret the data between the two, for all parties to understand the meaning in their own "language". Hence no mistunderstanding, between the two parties...
Was this fomatting equal? Mine wasn't.
pattimax
Somewhat returning
High standards? Hey if you want to talk about high standards, Christianity doesn't go far enough.
We were talking about a truly loving God and Jesus Christ as Lord. At least I was.
pattimax
Somewhat returning
How was he being attacked?
In the United States, educating Christians has backslid, but we as Christians should not have as our primary focus this emergence of anti-intellectualism... the world NEEDS educated Christians, its understanding should come from a Christian understanding.
Puritans and pilgrims prized educational life as part of the Christian journey. George Whitfield in his First Great Awakening from 1730-1750 popularized the "lordy, lordy, I'm saved!" mentality with his emotionally charged rhetorical preaching that required little Christian knowledge by the believer. There were subsequent revivals and awakenings in the 1800’s. Gone were the days of intense reflection and personal conviction, instead they were replaced by personal feeling and “how Christ affects them.”
(btw, that was not a kick, that was a slap upside the head.)
Please don’t get me wrong, you know that a lot of good occurred because of these conversions, but this is also how our cults (Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Science) took hold. Fast forward to the 21st century and you can see effects in relativism. Same thing, just different.