My lack of faith

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cymbalblade

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This is a long one. I don't know if this is the best place to post this. I just want the opinions of people outside of my church, hopefully of different faiths. I’ve wanted to talk to people at church about this, but I feel like they’d be so disappointed in me when they find what little faith I have. I’ve been going to this church for a long time. I used to consider myself Christian. I used to believe everything they told me, that there is one true God, that he created us to worship him, that he came to earth as Jesus to save us, that I’d be saved if I just believed in Jesus.

But after some years, I started to notice how people all around the world believe so strongly in other faiths. I started to see that people are just raised a certain way, and believe in whatever they have been told is true.

One person can “know” that something is true, while another person can “know” that something else is true, even though it is completely contradictory to the first. All these people believing in such different things… so many people have to be completely wrong. But they think they’re right, just like everyone else does.

And I realized that I wasn’t that different. I started to wonder what my faith was based on, and I realized it was based entirely on assumptions. It was based entirely on trust in what I have been told. I reached a point where I wasn't sure if it was all really true.

So for a few years, these doubts came and went. I kept going to church, trying to be the person that the pastor said I should be. After a while I started to see that I had no idea what was true. And I felt like I was doing something wrong. I started to pray to God about it. I wanted Him to strengthen my faith, to pull me back in line, to show me signs that He is what I’ve been told He is.

I realized that I’ve never really experienced God myself. I’ve only read about Him, heard about Him, and “witnessed” other people experience Him. I just wanted to hear his voice or feel his presence. I’ve felt like if that actually happened, then my faith would no longer be based on what other people tell me, but on God Himself. So for a few years now, I’ve been praying for this. I read things like “if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.” Then I think “I have opened the door. I have tried so hard. And I get nothing.” I’ve prayed for so many things, and I feel that I haven’t really received any of it.

More recently, instead of praying to God for answers, sometimes I pray to “whoever is out there listening.” I’ve also been reading about other religions and reading some of their sacred books. I’m hoping that something will stand out to me as being right, or maybe I’ll just experience something for myself and then know I’m on the right path. But still, I haven’t gotten very far. I still go to church, read the bible, and pray, sometimes in Jesus’ name. But I now feel very lost, and very open to any other ideas out there.

How can a person find the right path and know that it is right?

Thanks for reading such a long post, and for any help you might give. If you think there's a more helpful place for me to post this, please share. Thanks.

- Tim
 
Hello and wellcome to CR cymbalblade.
My walk with christianity has some similarities with yours, I just wanted to say not to rely too much on experiencing something as a way validating your faith. My intention is not discourage you from christianity, but rather whatever the path that you choose be always true to yourself.

One of the reasons I became a christian was because I had mystical experiences, which at the time validated my new faith, but as you know people from other faiths (or no faiths) also experience stuff.
I began gradually and slowly to come back to my senses and to question what I was taught, largely because it stopped working for me and became oppressive but also because of dissonance with my mind.
Mystical experiences could be about god, but god may not necessarily conform to any of our preconceived ideas, religious or not. Mystical experiences can also be purely psychological phenomena.

How can a person find the right path and know that it is right?

In absolute terms, you can't. You can only do that subjectively, find what works for yourself only.
If you are honest with yourself there will be room for uncertainty, which can be scary at first.
If you embrace uncertainty and learn to live with it, then uncertainty will reward you with freedom.

Just my opinion.
 
Namaste Cymbalblade, and welcome!

Have you been taking any classes in your church? I find those taking classes often have a lot of questions and as in many churches you can't just stand up and ask them...in class you can. And you find you aren't alone in that boat.

When one looks at the mission of a church, it is truly a shame that a member or long time attendee doesn't feel comfortable going upto the Pastor and saying...hey, I've got questions.

Blaznfattyz posted a report recently that stated just that...something to the tune that Pastors thought most of their flock was in lock step with the thought but when asked the percentage was very low.

I say ask, ask, ask, question until you feel comfortable. Often when we question we stir the ethers and answers come from interesting places.

You are not alone, far from it. I absolutely admire you for your contemplation.

Oh and lastly...take some time each day to go within...see what you hear...it may take months...but spending time each day in the silence is an extremely valuable tool (not to say it won't generate even more questions!!)

Peace and blessings on this new year...
 
Hi and welcome to CR,

How you’re feeling is not unique, so fear not!

There are people all around the world who are cultural or tribal believers; ie Christian because they are born in a Christian country, Muslim because they are born in a Muslim country. Some people however want to find a truth for themselves. Maybe you are one of those? …where the truth is what the truth is just to you. Not a mathematical certainty, but a seeking based on your own criteria. So read around, talk to others, do research, but think for yourself. No-one needs to be told what is right for them IMO.

I found out about a certain sort of “belief system” (it doesn’t matter to you what it was) purely by accident quite a few years ago. It was not a revelation, nor was it so strange I needed to be persuaded that it was “right.” This is because I found that I already thought like that anyway. I was already a “……...” in effect, but just didn’t know it. I already had “the truth”, it was made by me through my life’s experience. It was just the label that I hadn’t known about. And I’m still not interested in the label.

If you find you aren’t a tribal believer then your journey of discovery can only made only by you (or maybe you need a new tribe, or just a break from the current one!) Everyone has that potential freedom. Just not everyone realises it.

Snoopy.
 
Hello and welcome to CR !

We're, many of us, in the same boat here as you. We are explorers discovering new ways to believe and augment our historical beliefs each day through discussion. The real trick in doing this thing is to listen carefully to your own heart during the process, and adjust your beliefs accordingly. Not an easy thing to do, and I still find myself questioning me each day that I breath and walk around on the Earth. My basic belief is that is what we were created to do in the first place !

Best wishes on your journey !

flow....:p
 
maybe cymbalblade, ur just an intelligent being, who wants proofs and direct experiences, rather than be someone who just goes along with things because its tradition, or because thats whats expected of them, and if this is the case, then do not worry- better to have a load of questions and have no answers than never to question at all... if jesus had stuck slavishly to the rules he wouldn't have thrown the money lenders out of the temple, he would have helped to stone the adulteress, and he would never have been christ...

as u have found, there's lots of different paths, and they seem so different and unusual and superior to the path ur on now, but really, there isn't much difference between one path and another. Okay, maybe they appear different, on the surface, but they all have a god figure, prophets, teachers, texts, rules, etc... maybe like I did, u will look around and read the texts and stuff and realise that they're all as equally flawed as each other, and if so, don't be too disheartened... all religions have "truths" which are hard to swallow, truths which are not true, daft ways and silly rituals, and u can choose whether to accept them for urself or not... it's great stuff, free will, and if god didnt want us to use it then he wouldn't have given it to us in the first place...

yes, we all think we're right, much like everyone else does, and how can we all be right when our truths are so contradictory? only if we are lucky do we realise this, and look at the other truths, to see if they have any greater resonance than the truths we currently have, and maybe, if we're lucky, we find another way, or we find that our original path isnt all that bad or different after all...

...u can never be that person that the pastor wants u to be, and lets face it, he's probably not all that himself- he's only a man, like the rest of us, and maybe sometimes he sits at home and wonders if its true himself, although he'd never say it to ur face, as he wouldn't want to dissapoint u, either...

even jesus himself had doubts...

How can a person find the right path and know that it is right?

as far as I can see, most of us are stumbling around blindly in the dark, but for those like u, and me, with enquiring minds, we'll stumble for longer and stub our toes more, but only because we're moving about, and not standing still... to me, it sounds like u have plenty of faith, rather than a lack of it, and u just need to work on the fine details...

"...knock and the door shall be opened onto u, seek and ye shall find..."

good luck with ur seeking!

cheerio
 
Like francis said, You and I are in some small ways alike... I want physical proof I want to see the goods. I want some one who belives he is truly god of all to show me he is... I am not satisfied with reading a simple book and then turning my whole life to dedicate this book or that book, it seems a waste and false... like a disney tale... You I guess are the same... You truly NEED that evidence to proove it. I would say in honest opinion to give up and save your breath... I have spent many nights alike you asking, praying, demanding, screaming for someone/thing to proove it was there.... No matter how I tried nothing came of it... So I asked myself, why waste my very short fragile life worrying about things like that.... I told myself to just get on with life and try to have as many laughs and enjoyment as I can before that final curtain. *shruggs* but yeah... Something of your post just gives me hints of myself... I feel as if you will search for quite sometime but will truly never be happy with anything you find... For a while may pretend you are... but then give up that ghost.... Hmmmm anyway lol sorry Rambling... Good luck on your search for answers.
 
17th Angel said:
Like francis said, You and I are in some small ways alike... I want physical proof I want to see the goods. I want some one who belives he is truly god of all to show me he is... I am not satisfied with reading a simple book and then turning my whole life to dedicate this book or that book, it seems a waste and false... like a disney tale... You I guess are the same... You truly NEED that evidence to proove it. I would say in honest opinion to give up and save your breath... I have spent many nights alike you asking, praying, demanding, screaming for someone/thing to proove it was there.... No matter how I tried nothing came of it... So I asked myself, why waste my very short fragile life worrying about things like that.... I told myself to just get on with life and try to have as many laughs and enjoyment as I can before that final curtain. *shruggs* but yeah... Something of your post just gives me hints of myself... I feel as if you will search for quite sometime but will truly never be happy with anything you find... For a while may pretend you are... but then give up that ghost.... Hmmmm anyway lol sorry Rambling... Good luck on your search for answers.
Click to expand...

17th, I admire your honesty. But you are in good company in that a good majority of Christians haven't seen the clouds open up to reveal the physical evidence of God. I would like that God would audably speak from the sky and tell me, "You are my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased". I've asked for confirmation that He was real, but never experienced anything quite like that. Instead, I have had confirmation in little things. He has worked out things in the fabric and direction of my life that have seemed a bit too coincidental to attribute to mere chance. I can tell you numerous times that He has bailed me out of several jams that could have been disasterous for my life had I not thought to pray about them. I have not always gotten the "karma" I deserved, because I trusted in Something I've never seen.

For example, in the Navy, you are expected to stand watches on a regular basis. Well, I was temporaily assigned to a RAG (Reserve Training Group)squadron in NAS Lemoore, CA while I awaited a Navy School before going off to my regular command on the same base. Because I was classfied as a student, they only assigned us four hour watches on the weekend. One particular weekend, I noticed I had a watch late Sunday afternoon. So I reported at the appropiate hour and stood watch with another Petty officer who filled in as Assistant Command Duty Officer (ACDO) and all was going fine. Near the end of the four hour watch, the Command Master Chief came in and asked the ACDO how the weekend went. The ACDO replied that one person failed to report for watch that Friday afternoon. When asked who it was, the ACDO said, "Petty Officer [Dondi]".

I about sprayed coffee out my nose! I mean I was sitting right there idly overhearing a remark that I was placed on report. I exclaimed, "Hey, that's me!" And they both just gave me the weirdest look.

While I was punctual on my Sunday watch, for I had read Sunday's Watch Bill, I assumed that I had only that watch and neglected to check Friday's Watch Bill. As a conseqeunce, I was placed on report for missing watch. I begged and pleaded with the Master Chief and explained my mistake and hoped that he would reconsider, but he said that all watchstander report chits must be reviewed by the Executive Officer, by command policy.

I felt so doomed. I was shortly called up and was read my rights under UCMJ law and that I should expect to see Captain's Mast in the near future.

So the only thing I could do was pray and ask God to find favor with me in this instance.

Well, about a month passed and I heard nothing become of the report chit. I finished my Navy School and was ready to check out of the RAG squadron I was temporarily assigned to. As I was checking out, I inquired about the report chit. So one of the administration staff went to look into it. He came back and said that they misplaced the report and it never got processed. But since I was checking out, the Executive Officer said that all I had to do was give a brief lecture on proper watchstanding to an orientation class next door. And that was that. Praise God!

Now you can attribute this to pure circumstance if you want to. And I might be inclined to believe you, except that I went through another Navy school five years later at the same Rag Squadron and guess what? I missed a watch again. And guess what again? I prayed for a reprieve and got it again. This time, a different Command Master Chief actually called me up at the school and told me I missed watch. I made the same exact mistake (when will I ever learn) and pleaded my case to the CMC, and this time he let me off the hook. Glory to God!

God is in the little things! That's proof enough for me. :)
 
you sound very intelligent and ask all the questions many think. i think faith, which is acceptance without question, gives rise to a whole number of problems like interpretation, dependance and exploitation. theyre doing propaganda and to follow is to support the master - disciple mutual exploitation. all authority is evil especially in the world of religion - this includes the authority you would set up within yourself. do you need religion to be religious? i'm not advocating atheism as to me that is just another religion. indeed football is religion to some. have you noticed the similarity - the manager is the priest, the players are the disciples, the supporters are the followers and the stadium is their church. or some men go to the pub, the barman is the priest, the bar the altar, the pub is the church. allthese are just ways for people to forget themselves and postpone any real action. can anyone but you know whether you are corrupt or whole. to allow an outside agency to decide matters of truth is to further dependance and becomes a crutch. we've been led for millennia and where are we, waiting to be led for another few millennia? organised religion is mass hypnotism - a tool for dividing and so controlling the masses and the nations. maybe try this, regards jase
krishnamurti -u g - Google Video
 
This thread implies that a person has decided or knows what Faith means.

For me the lesson of Faith was a short exercise as a child where one person was blind folded and then guided though an obstacle course or up and down a steep hill by the hand or voice of a partner.

A light clicked on then for me that the many hours of flannel board bible stories in Sunday school could not provide. That exercise of Faith put stories into context from everywhere. It became a valued trait to live life by: placing Faith into the voice of others. When I hear a story I try to imagine what it would be like if I were in the story. Imagining oneself in another's shoes is extremely valuable. I think acting or role playing the stories would be far better than reading the book or listening to a sermon. The stories are great and varied, but for me the concept of Faith was cemented by the exercise. You have to try it to understand it.

Today when I walk into a church or mosque when the subject is Faith I might hear words like: belief, believe, trust, risk, servant, submit, obey. I wish Faith was a verb. To me Faith is those vows, "I do". Do what? Place Faith in you that your words are True, and vow to be Faithful that mine are too. So I see how all vows, agreements, or Law are a matter of Faith. For me Faith is real time and it involves people who are alive communicating with feedback loops between them. It is an overlapping will power. In marriage, relationships, or business agreements it goes both ways as if that original exercise were carried out both ways.

For the longest time I did not see God as living. I understood Faith, but God wasn't really around to place Faith in. It seemed like Faith was a way to live life, and that God was something to look forward to someday after death. If someone described an alleged miracle or said that God allegedly told them something, I didn't believe it and I was almost put off by it. In my mind I said, "How dare that he lie", or "Yeah, I've seen that psychosis before in others... are you taking any medication?" To tell the truth, I think that is an accurate description for some, but I can’t prove it. I see individuals raised in families with such expectations, and living those scripts or expectations has become their life. It is like the father saying to his son, "A good person starts with circumcision, a football scholarship, goes to college, and ..." It is a script. That is NOT Faith. Somewhere the church and the bible became a script and somehow the script was termed a 'faith'. Rather than imagining the person in the story as the person with Faith or who was Faithful, now it has become that 'faith' means the story, or believing the story. A story is NOT alive. A story has no will power and it can’t change itself. A story does not see you and hear you. A story does not have the option of judging or condemning you. But a person is alive, and God is alive. A person who is alive sees and hears. So hear the story because someone told it, but realize that words themselves are NOT alive. God is. Today I realize that God has placed Faith in everyone, and so must a person.

I find that there is greater faith in branching out to learn new things in the world from the living. I tend not to see just one path or a few paths, but that every person is walking a different path.
 
I agree that a story is not alive, but it can help deliver a message. Beside me is a story that a friend shared with me last year, which I looked at again yesterday for the first time since then. It has to do with death, but also with Faith. I don't know where she got, I just printed it out to look at from time to time.

Live abundantly ... be the dog!

A sick man turned to his doctor, as he was preparing to leave the examination room and said, "Doctor, I am afraid to die. Tell me what lies on the other side."

Very quietly, the doctor said, "I don't know."

"You don't know? You, a man of faith, do not know what is on the other side?"

The doctor was holding the handle of the door; on the other side came the sounds of scratching and whining, and as he opened the door, a dog sprang into the room and leaped on him with an eager display of gladness.

Turning to the patient, the doctor said, "Did you notice my dog? He's never been in this room before. He didn't know what was inside. He knew nothing except that his master was here, and when the doop opened, he came running in without fear. I know little of what is on the other side of death, but I do know one thing... I know my Master is there, and that is enough."

~~~~~

There are many things I believe in, without having every seen them, or without having experienced them directly. I do have faith, many times, because others claim the experiences, and have spoken openly about them. Some of these don't even pertain to religion, but when it comes to the existence of a higher power, my reason to doubt has grown so small that I can no longer appeal from a practical point of view.

All I can say, is that the flesh is weak and that sometimes an irrational fear tends to take over. Then I look around, see the evidence that is within, without, and on every side ... and I know to trust, and have Faith.

As wil suggested on another thread, we can go within to the "still, small voice," and lift our question or concern - our search for Faith and guidance - into the light. The answer will come, the prayer will find a response. It's the learning-to-see-it part, which may take a lifetime. :)

~Zagreus
 
Hi Tim,

Here's the simple remedy for coming to know God through Jesus. You'll have to be honest with this, OK? The Bible says that God has given us a set of laws, namely the Ten Commandments, as a representation of what He says is good. More than that, God has taken the time to write His Laws on our heart and given us a moral alerm, more specifically, a Conscience, to allow us to know when we break one of those laws that are written on our hearts. By the way, the word conscience means "with knoweldge." Con means "with" and science means "knoweldge." Therefore, when we break one of the laws that is written on our heart, we do it "with knoweldge" that we are doing wrong because the conscience testifies that we are breaking God's laws, which are being reflected on our hearts.

So there is God's wisdom: To use weak and simple things to both shame those who think themselves wise and point to the truth - namely, that no man is good because all have broken God's laws. That, by the way, is what sin is. Sin is transgretion of God's Law (1John 3:4). So knowing that no one is good, God did not give the law that man should keep it (since none did/can/will). Rather, God gave the Law to point to Jesus, the only one to ever fulfill the law. So Christ lived a perfect life in fulfilling God's Law and died as a perfect sacrifice in order to pay the debt of those who broke the law and are indebted to the law. So it works like this:

If you repent and trust in Jesus, Jesus gets all of your sins and dies for it on the cross, and you get Jesus' righteous imputed to you and God sees you in Christ as righteous and good. This is only a concise introduction into understanding Christanity. It isnt about religion or being good, because none are good before God. All our good works are but flity mensration rags before God (Isa. 64:6). No amount of goodness can take away our many law breaking (sins). Only Jesus can make us born again into God's family and allow us to be loved by God. Thats why He says "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me." Repent of your sins (turn away from them and desire to live for God) and Trust in Jesus alone (not in any supposed good in you), and God will do the rest.

So

 
Well Tim, I doubt I'm qualified to give you any advice. But if it were me I'd ask myself what my real motives are. Why do I want this? Am I emotionally needy? If so, why? What am I trying to compensate for? Am I afraid of something? What and why?

What if God isn't a being at all, but rather an organizing force that makes everything work?

Chris
 
Dondi said:
God is in the little things! That's proof enough for me. :)
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Thats nice to hear... But it isn't that way obviously for everyone.. The small things I can always logically explain. I want the BIG things to happen. So there is no way I could ever explain why it happened. I just get the feeling this guy is the same... And there is nothing wrong with that, in my belief. I admire more the person who picks and probes and questions and say 'why' alot... than the person who will just roll over and accept what he is told... Good for you Tim... ;)
 
17th Angel said:
Thats nice to hear... But it isn't that way obviously for everyone.. The small things I can always logically explain. I want the BIG things to happen. So there is no way I could ever explain why it happened. I just get the feeling this guy is the same... And there is nothing wrong with that, in my belief. I admire more the person who picks and probes and questions and say 'why' alot... than the person who will just roll over and accept what he is told... Good for you Tim... ;)
Click to expand...

Oh, I'm not saying you shouldn't explore and probe and search for God. I investigated all kinds of avenues myself. I was once even doubtful whether God really exists or not. Even now I don't have definitive truth, only personal experience and testamonies of the same. And I find it extremely difficult, in light of the complexity and variety of life, to believe we all came about by pure accident. Just my own consciousness and being amazes me, who am I and how did I get here, ya know? And I cannot ignore the testamonies of those who have had near-death experiences or encounters with God, Jesus, or angels. Nor can I ignore those who have had adverse experiences with the demonic or dark spiritual world. There just has to be a spiritual realm.

It is a step by step process. And it begins with the acceptance of a possible spiritual world by small steps of faith leading to bigger things. That's why I don't think God is too keen in revealing Himself in such an divulging thunder and lightning and brimstone manner. I think He tried that approach in the OT, but folks still didn't take to kindly to His message. Rather God has choosen to reveal Himself to seekers in a more spiritual manner, through the human heart and in a relational interchange of love and respect. You're not going to find God under a rock, but within yourself. Paul writes of this in Acts 17:

"That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." - Acts 17:27-28

You are going to have to find Him through the eyes of faith.
 
the real question for me is how do i find the truth, and can this even be a positive action or is it more of removing the obstacles to truth and if so what are these. how can i do this if i have faith which does imply a lack of questioning in favour of acceptance.
for me some of the obstacles to truth are desire, fear, laziness and dependance and without understanding these first anything else is jumping ahead of myself. anything i find will be according to and shaped by the parameters of these obstacles. what is found will be according to your desires and this can never be truth. i've got a habit of preaching please excuse, truth is i don't know what you should do, perhaps thats a possible new begining...j...
 
just adding a thought -
i watched a vid once where krishnamurti was asking all the teachers from one of the schools how they were going to bring about a new human being. the discussion went on with various teachers putting forward ideas about how they were going to affect a change all of them, effectively pointed out as influencing, shaping according to patterns etc. eventually he pointed out that there is maybe a possibility of help only when first they realise that they don't know what to do and so not knowing you begin.
 
I realized that I’ve never really experienced God myself. I’ve only read about Him, heard about Him, and “witnessed” other people experience Him. I just wanted to hear his voice or feel his presence. I’ve felt like if that actually happened, then my faith would no longer be based on what other people tell me, but on God Himself. So for a few years now, I’ve been praying for this. I read things like “if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.” Then I think “I have opened the door. I have tried so hard. And I get nothing.” I’ve prayed for so many things, and I feel that I haven’t really received any of it.
Click to expand...


I was in the same place as you and a small part of me said that I should go out and perform specific acts which would benefit others vice myself...I understood that each act done for others brought me that much closer to God like the steps of a ladder...soon I was spending all day doing things for others and little for myself (the opposite of my normal life!)...this indeed opened my eyes to God and I can tell you that while it was the greatest experience of my life it was also the scariest...to know God is to lose yourself and many (me included) are not ready for that...I have to add that God helped me in my efforts (he motivated me) and I did not put myself aside in favor of others through my own power and I cannot do it now on my own...trust me I've tried and withoput His help I am unable...


I can't tell you how surprised I was (and relieved) to know that there is indeed a very real and specific basis for religion and spirituality...I was also relieved to find that all religions indeed point to the same Deity/reality and that those who do not think this is true haven't seen God and are only going on what others have communicated to them...and for the record I am a member of the Southern Bapist church...
 
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