War on Drugs...

wil

wil

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We declared war on drugs decades ago...

And drug availability and use has increased steadily...

Legalization, decrminilization all pose there problems...but the problems we have today are huge.

Q knows about the numbers...the massive quantitities that have been stopped the cartels and runners that have been eliminated...

Yet to those in the industry it is just part of doing business. Like the store who calculates in losses due to theft..it is all put into the pricing structure.

So we spend millions (billions?) on keeping stuff out, and putting people away...all while the business keeps rolling along...

To me it all started with reefer madness, while prohibition still left a bad taste in our mouths, and Hearst got the corner on the pulp paper market, his lobby passed laws to make hemp illegal and villify weed as evil, because hemp paper products would cost him millions...

So while we didn't have a cocaine, heroin, or marijuana problem...yes we had opium dens and opiates in over the counter medicine and cocaine in our soft drinks...and marijuana was available...it wasn't an issue....

Until we declared war and sensationalized it...and created a market.

No different than that tree in the middle of the garden...what you tell the kids not to touch...they test.

What we resist persists....
 
So, what did you want to discuss?

Or did you simply wish to point out, that certain goverments/people believe to be in a war against drugs and it costs a bunch and all these efforts still fail to stop 100% of drug runners, dealers, growers/producers, users?

Oh, hang on... the words are forming in my head now heh.... So basically... If you said "do not touch" they won't touch? You really think that would work? For example, my parents never talked about drugs... They didn't really know what drugs were... I found them, I embraced them... I didn't need someone to say don't do that or do, do that... I choose that.

Anyway, in places like my normal weekend stop over, Amsterdam.. Where mushrooms and weed are legal... That gives the police less crap to deal with... Officer, Officer!! Someone is smoking pot.... So? I think that is awesome... I have never seen a "night city" anywhere else that has as much discipline as this place.... They deal with the -more- important issues... theft, killing, harder drugs, rape and so on... When you compare weed or whatever to those crimes... it is nothing.. Well obviously cause it aint a crime.

Less time wasted on small things = More time to deal with big things = a good city with really good policing.(sp)
 
Hi,

A “sensible” government would presumably not allow alcohol and tobacco to be legal. The cost to individuals and society is appalling, in terms of ill health, death and violence (alcohol fuelled). However the two generate a great deal in taxes and are very popular so no government is going to be keen to change things.

“Drugs: the real deal

This is the first ranking based upon scientific evidence of harm to both individuals and society. It was devised by government advisers - then ignored by ministers because of its controversial findings

Published: 01 August 2006

1: Heroin (Class A)
ORIGIN: Vast majority comes from poppy fields of Afghanistan
MEDICAL: Sedative made from the opium poppy. Can be smoked or injected to produce a 'rush'. Users feel lethargic but experience severe cravings for the drug
NO. OF UK USERS: 40,000
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 744
STREET VALUE: £30-100 a gram
DANGER RATING: 2.75/3

2: Cocaine (Class A)
ORIGIN: Made from coca shrubs from Colombia and Bolivia
MEDICAL: Stimulant made from leaves of the coca bush. Increases alertness and confidence but raises heart rate and blood pressure and users will crave it
NO. OF UK USERS: 800,000
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 147
STREET VALUE: £30-55 a gram
DANGER RATING: 2.25/3

3: Barbiturates (Class B)
ORIGIN: Synthetic lab-made drugs, used to be prominent in clubs
MEDICAL:powerful sedatives. Widely prescribed as sleeping pills but dangerous in overdose and now superseded by safer drugs
NO. OF UK USERS: Not many
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 14
STREET VALUE: £1-2 a tablet
DANGER RATING: 2.10/3

4: Street Methadone (Class A)
ORIGIN: Synthetic drug similar to heroin but less addictive
MEDICAL: Similar to morphine and heroin and used to wean addicts off these drugs because it is less sedating. Street versions may be contaminated
NO. OF UK USERS: 20,000
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 200
STREET VALUE: £2 a dose
DANGER RATING: 1.90/3

5: Alcohol (Legal)
ORIGIN: Brewed across the world in many different forms
MEDICAL:Central nervous system depressant used to reduce inhibitions and increase sociability. Increasing doses lead to intoxication, coma and respiratory failure
NO. OF UK USERS: Most adults
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 22,000
STREET VALUE: £2.25 pint of lager
DANGER RATING: 1.85/3

6: Ketamine (Class C)
ORIGIN: Anaesthetic drug popular on club and rave scene
MEDICAL:Intravenous anaesthetic used on humans and animals which, when taken in tablet form, creates hallucinatory experiences
NO. OF UK USERS: Unknown
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: N/A
STREET VALUE: £15-50 a gram
DANGER RATING: 1.80/3

7: Benzodiazopines (Class C)
ORIGIN: Tranquilisers used to beat anxiety and insomnia
MEDICAL:The most common prescription tranquillisers. Effective sedatives which have a calming effect, reducing anxiety, but are addictive
NO. OF UK USERS: 160,000
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 206
STREET VALUE: Prescription drug
DANGER RATING: 1.75/3

8: Amphetamines (Class B)
ORIGIN: Synthetic stimulants snorted, mixed in drink or injected
MEDICAL:Man-made drugs that increase heart rate and alertness. Users may feel paranoid. Newer form, methamphetamine, is addictive
NO. OF UK USERS: 650,000
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 33
STREET VALUE: £2-10 a gram
DANGER RATING: 1.70/3

9: Tobacco (Legal)
ORIGIN: Most of the leaf comes from the Americas
MEDICAL: Contains nicotine, a fast-acting stimulant which is highly addictive. Tobacco causes lung cancer and increases the risk of heart disease
NO. OF UK USERS: 12.5m
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: 114,000
STREET VALUE: £4.50 a packet
DANGER RATING: 1.65/3

10: Buprenorphine (Class C)
ORIGIN: Can be made in a laboratory
MEDICAL: More expensive alternative to methadone used to wean addicts off heroin. Preferred by some addicts because it leaves them more 'clear headed'
NO. OF UK USERS: Unknown
NO. OF UK DEATHS IN 2004: N/A “


s.
 
I think were touching on the issue here...

Like in medicine I think we need to start looking holistically at situations and not simply at symptoms and trying to stop the symptom.

The drug problem includes the thefts and murders and other illicit behaviour that surrounds its cost and illegality.

Marijuana does not in itself lead to other drugs, but the fact that all this is illegal lends one to be associating with all other sorts of illegal types when aquiring and using this substance.

If we factor in the cost in prisons with the cost to insurance agencies and citizens who are victimized by this hole war, I think we'd find ending the war and taxing and supplying the drugs would be cheaper... But there are many making incomes off of the war...hence yet another issue.
 
If you grow your own... You are not having to deal with anyone.
If you are fortunate to live or have travel access to the beautiful and almighty netherlands (bows humbly)... You do not have to deal with any other "sorts" of drugs heh....

I also think you will find in the majority of cases.... If your a crack dealer... Guess what he deals? Crack, not weed not E, not acid or caylpol... Crack. And this is the same for any dealer I beleive.. You stick to one product, indeed you may do different weights, flavours, styles strengths.... but you keep to one product.... Just my previous experience that is.

Too many products... Too many loose ends, too many risks..... Too many contacts... Too many to trust. ;)

To me the ideal dealer... Is a man/woman of knoweldge they have the tips they have the advice they know what works they know what doesn't.... You have a problem or question about the product they have that knowledge lol.... It's a trade, a skill... A service ;)
 
in the UK at least 30% of the general population has experimented with drugs... in the 16-35 age bracket, that figure jumps to 60%...

in the UK over 70% of acquisitive crime (thefts, muggings, burglaries, etc) is a direct result of class A drug users needing money for more drugs... its not kids going to Woolworths and stealing a packet of sweets, and its not "pot-heads" breaking into MacDonalds to scoff burgers after an attack of the munchies...

... 96% of all female prostitutes are addicted to either crack or smack or use both...

... u are more likely to be murdered by ur spouse than by a drug dealer (unless u make a habit of going round ripping drug dealers off)...

...I agree with Wil, when he says that the problem isnt drugs, its the problems which result from the drug use which are the problem...

heroin, smoked, has a very low overdose rating... far less than any of the other drugs, and including alcohol... most ppl who are suceptible to overdose via heroin find that at worst, "smoking the brown" makes them vomit, repeatedly... heroin users are generally not violent, they are placid, and lazy... yet, injecting heroin is considered to be a risk to public health- not just via the sharing of needles, but discarding needles, infected injection sites, loss of limbs, the spread of blood borne pathogens, etc, etc, and so the government decided to try and counter this by giving out free syringes and running a needle campaign... unfortunately, heroin addicts still share needles, and they still throw them on the roadside when they've finished using, and lil kids still pick them up...

because it is recognised that most robbers are in fact, smackheads, the police instituted a system of DTTO's, (drug treatment and testing orders), yet while they test about 40%, they can only provide treatment to 5%... so, whats the point testing them, to find out something that u already know, when being certain means nothing, and u still can't help ppl? there are not enough beds in the NHS centres to offer every nicked smackhead a bed, and most of them are too gripped by addiction to contemplate not taking it again, so even if u treat them, they come out and go back on it... its a lonely life for an ex-junkie, if all ur mates are still on the bag, and u have to go back to ur council flat on ur shitty estate and see all ur ex-mates living the life... its better to sit in a squat with a needle in ur arm, hiding and sliding from the coppers than to sit on ur own in a bedsit watching tv with no job and no habit and no life...

the government, periodically, publicly considers a few wild ideas, such as giving away free heroin to junkies, so they dont burgle houses, and opening shooting galleries, so that junkies do not inject on the high street in the phonebox, but instead can get free needles and swabs, and everything's clean and neat, but neither idea is the solution to the drugs problem...

u need a top-down, and a bottom-up approach... from the bottom up, u need to shatter the myths about drugs, give ppl a good education about drugs, the effects, the possible outcomes, costs, quality, price, etc, etc, and then they can make better informed choices... drugs will never be legalised, and probably shouldn't be, yet small amounts of soft drugs- weed, quality E, for example, magic mushrooms, can be tolerated, and the normal law abiding adults should be allowed to indulge in such recreational pursuits without fear of prosecution... of couse, the limits of what constitutes personal consumption should be agreed, and at the same time, u should also also open places where ppl can take various drugs freely, with other adults, and make laws so that drug taking in the town square is unacceptable, smoking in the coffee shop is okay, smoking outside Tesco's isn't, for example, and see what happens...

cocaine and heroin should be outlawed... full stop, end stop... instead of chasing after small time weed dealers, who are usually just trying to make a living, the police and the politicians should throw their weight behind stopping crack and smack dealers from selling their wares, and the government needs to fund more treatment centres, and when ppl leave they need structured exit programmes, - relocation, accomodation, education/training/employment, and unfortunately, its all too expensive...

as cocaine use becomes more prevelant and more acceptable in British society we are experiencing an increase in violent street crime, and ppl are scared to go out at night, yet when ppl like Pete Doherty and Kate Moss are on the nose candy and while Tory politicians stick it up their noses they won't be too bothered, but we can jump on the smackheads because they don't wash...ho ho ho...

I wonder sometimes whether we won't actually do anything about the drug problem because the drug problem is a good thing for the middle class social workers and service providers who would be out of work without a pot of junkies to minister to... but maybe thats just me...
 
Francis king said:
in the UK at least 30% of the general population has experimented with drugs... in the 16-35 age bracket, that figure jumps to 60%... u need to shatter the myths about drugs, give ppl a good education about drugs, the effects, the possible outcomes, costs, quality, price, etc, etc, and then they can make better informed choices..
Click to expand...
funny, in the 70's it was said that 60% of those 16-35 had experimented or used...those folks are 46-65 today....who are these 70% of the general population that never did?? I guess it must just be all the people under 16 and over 65!!

Major drug campaign in the US shows an egg being fried and saying this is your brain on drugs...yet kids go through school and college and into the workforce seeing their schoolmates, coworkers, teachers and bosses using...and compare it to the advert and then believe nothing of what they were taught and try everything.

As long as the lower echelon of drugs has penalties similar to the higher echelon our young marijuana users will be associating with older cocaine and heroine users...marijuana does not lead to harder drugs...marijuana laws do.

I'm at odds here. I have issues with decriminalization and legalization in that I know what the drugs do....but our current situation is excerbating the problem and not solving it.
 
Heard one driving into work today...

The guy indicated that today 90% of the heroin in the world comes from Afghanistan. Wholesale value to the Afghan farmers...2 billion dollars...his solution, buy it...or spend 2 billion dollars creating a better cash crop for them to grow.

So I looked up the cost of the war on drugs...US alone.

Today so far 32 billion.... War On Drugs Clock
 
wil said:
Heard one driving into work today...

The guy indicated that today 90% of the heroin in the world comes from Afghanistan. Wholesale value to the Afghan farmers...2 billion dollars...his solution, buy it...or spend 2 billion dollars creating a better cash crop for them to grow.

So I looked up the cost of the war on drugs...US alone.

Today so far 32 billion.... War On Drugs Clock
Click to expand...

2billion to the farmers, over 100 billion to the top dealers, several of the key players being very highly connected politically.

The war on drugs gives tax dollars to these same politicians and their friends who are key share holders in the private prisons and accounts for 60% of the money quoted for this war on drugs. Its win win for some.

The Bush family have a long history of connections to some of the worlds oldest and powerful drug barons stretching back for decades. These guys make the Sicilian Mafia look like street dealers. There is no war on drugs. There is a war on truth.

Tao
 
My $0.02:

All people are permanently and perpetually addicted to fullfilment/peace/whatever its called. Some find more practical (or sensible) ways to go about it than others.
 
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