The name of Jesus

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by juantoo3, Jan 30, 2007.

  1. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, all!

    Starting a new thread on what can only be described as a controversial subject within Christianity. The name of Jesus…just how important is it to get this name that ranks among the most Holy in Christendom correct? What are the implications, particularly for literalist Christians?

    To which I have to respond, if intent is sufficient then the intent of billions of non-Christians must carry weight in approaching G-d as well. If G-d sees our intent, and intent is sufficient to cover our faults (at least the minor ones), then every person who ever lived who strove to be decent to neighbor and self and G-d as that person understands Him to be, should be found favorable. "Should" in this sense is not my personal implication, it is implicit in the argument of intent. One need not call on the name "Jesus" either, if the intent is proper one could as easily call on the name of "Ralph." (If Ralph happened to be one's messiah, anyway.)

    And if one happens to be a literalist, then one had better stop calling on the false name of Jesus and start calling him by his birth given name... ;)
     
  2. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    My take on this is really very simple. Jesus says that "whatever you ask in my name I will do." If I ask for million dollars "in Jesus' name" will I get it? Uh, probably not. I think that "in Jesus' name" actually implies something more like "for the advancement of Jesus' purpose." So, paraphrasing: "Whatever you ask that advances my purpose, I will do." Now, holiness of Jesus' name, I think, is an entirely different thing. There his Name is the summation of his cosmic office. When that Name vibrates through the cosmos the work of the Logos is performed. No man can utter that name (it would be like trying to speak dolphin, or something) because if they could they could control the Force that goes with it. But we can call upon, or participate with the mysterious working of that Name through the process Jesus was describing in the text I quoted at the top. Well, I think so anyway.

    Chris
     
  3. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    I like to think of Jesus as an ice dancer, dressed in an all-white jumpsuit, and doing an interpretive dance of my life.
     
  4. Dondi

    Dondi Well-Known Member

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    All variations of spelling and inflections aside, it is not the name itself, but what is behind the name that counts.

    I frequently hear people ending prayers "In Jesus' name", as if it were some magical incantation that would validate their prayer or give substance to actualizing their prayer, but I don't believe for a moment that this is what Jesus meant when He said that, "If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."(John 14:14).

    Psalm 138:2 says, "I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

    All those things Jesus performed in the will of the Father were backed by His Words, the things He taught.

    "...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." - John 6:63

    So when we proclaim the name of Jesus, we are proclaiming His Words, the Truth and Revelation of God come in the flesh. "...I am the Way, the Truth and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father but by Me."(John 14:6) The essence of the truth contained in the Word of God is what will lead people to God. When Gospel is preached in Jesus' name, it is preached in His authority of the truth revealed to man about who God is and what He wants of us. In fact, those the first questions that Paul asked upon his conversion: "Who art thou, Lord?", "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" Those are questions we should all be asking.


     
  5. Virtual_Cliff

    Virtual_Cliff Well-Known Member

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    When someone calls out "Open in the name of the law!", it's not the words "the law" that compel the fugitive to open the door. What the lawman means is "By the authority invested in me by the law, I command you to open the door".

    Similarly we could say - if we had faith enough - "By the authority invested in me by Jesus, I command you to be healed". Whoah! Doesn't that sound great!

    It has to be a Jesus that means a lot to you or it'll be a damp squib. Thinking of Jesus Johnson from the grocery store won't work (sorry Johnson). I think if you can't believe that Jesus is right up there on God's right hand you're wasting your time, just say "in the name of God".
     
  6. Prober

    Prober Give Us This Day...

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    "...that the Father may be glorified in the Son".

    and...

    What's that thing about when the high priest uttered G-d's name once a year you could hear it for twenty miles or something?
     
  7. Prober

    Prober Give Us This Day...

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    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." Rev 2:17

    [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." Rev 3:12

    So, in heaven everyone has a new name.

    Thought?

    Will we all be creators? Speak Dolphin?:)
    [/FONT]
     
  8. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Hmmm...I am thinking "too many cooks spoils the broth." Or, "too many chiefs, not enough indians."
     
  9. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Namaste 123 et al.

    Great thread, great posts.

    In his name. In Jesus name we pray, I've heard it said if you don't add it to a prayer it is like having bread without butter. But as mentioned here and elsewhere prayer works, and it doesn't appear to matter what denomination or religion....and even for atheists, agnostics who think postively and use affirmations...oh my...

    So it is my understanding that when it was written, that collection, compendium we call the bible...names were of different import than today. Your name indicated who and what you were, your temperment, and what others thought about you. We see Abram and Sarai and many others getting name changes in their life. Jewish tradition doesn't name the child till after the parents ascertain the traits that child expresses. In the old testament we see them naming wells, mountains, towns...based on spiritual feelings that were occuring.

    In Jesus name is thought to be in his nature, in his way. Walk like an Eqyptian...oops sorry. If we read it in Jesus' way we pray, or pray in Jesus' nature. Pray as if, pray with knowing, not beseeching...

    my thoughts...
     
  10. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, China Cat!
    Conceptually I am inclined to agree, that whatever we ask of G-d that is right and proper and in line with His plans / outlook / designs or whatever will be granted. That "Go with the flow" and "tap into that universal source" stuff I see pointed to on occasion. The trouble is, how do we know when we are aimed in the correct direction? When G-d answers our prayers? If we are already pointed in the correct direction, what need to we have to even ask?

    Well, OK, but Jesus is the son of G-d, not G-d. The name of G-d I believe might carry this "power" you allude to, but would the name of His son carry the same, or even significantly comparable, degree of power. *Especially* if that name is mispoken or misspelled. I don't claim to know much about incantation, but it seems to me correct pronunciation is crucial and key. To have Jesus' name so completely turned around as to be...well, a fiction, seems to me contradictory. The man we know as Jesus was given the name at birth of Yashua, by his mother, under instruction of the archangel Gabriel (if we are to believe the Gospel story). "Jesus" isn't even close in pronunciation, and that is my point. Jesus stems from the Greek Iesus, which has close ties to the Hero-god Zeus. If the name Jesus carries any weight of incantation power, it is distinctly pagan, *not Hebrew!*
     
  11. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, Dondi!
    With all due respect Dondi (and you should know by now I do respect you), I see a glaring contradiction: "(it is) what is behind the name that counts" (intent) versus "no man cometh unto the Father but by Me." If the man we know as Jesus is "the Way, the Truth and the Life," isn't it imperitive we get his name correct? Otherwise, if the name is not important, but rather the intent, then this can be paraphrased: "no man cometh unto the Father but by *the intent I represent*." I represent the Way, the Truth and the Life. I point the way so you may follow, but I am not that way in and of myself. (*I am the messenger, not the message*)

    For everyone...I am not advocating any position in this...my mind and my heart are torn on the subject. I am merely looking at condensed versions of various sermons I have heard over the years...some of which point how powerful the name of Jesus is, and others pointing the inaccuracy of that name being applied to the person Christians hold as Messiah. When it is convenient, the issue of intent is raised...when at other times strict literalism is demanded (if it is in there, then it happened just exactly the way it says, crossed t's and dotted i's). I simply see a great deal of contradiction...and I am very confused on the subject.
     
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    In my mind all of our desires are of the Father (de-sire) and you are right we need not ask, we simply need to know.

    I and the Father are One...this isn't just a statement for our elder brother...but for us all...yes we are creators...

    This is obvious on physical scale...what we conceive and believe we achieve...cell phones, travel to the moon, building a house, whatever...we are creators...

    But the books open the door to the next level...and if we bestow our power to the name of Jesus or Krishna or whatever...it doesn't matter...it is our faith touching the hem if required...or standing on its own..but it is our knowing that we can be..

    We do it all the time for little things....it is simply time for us to start working on larger creations...
     
  13. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, Cliff!
    I suppose if one is called by another name often enough, one will eventually grow to answer to that new name. But when it comes to names of power, a subject with deep esoteric roots in both Judaism and Paganism (so by extension Christianity), it seems crucial to me to get the name of Messiah correct. If I understand Ralph is at the right hand of G-d, can miracles be wrought in the name of Ralph? The name "Jesus" is a linguistic extension of a Pagan God (Zeus), is the power to work miracles in that name derived from Pagan sources? Are Christians working miracles by and with anti-Christian power sources?
     
  14. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, Prober!
    Ah yes...but must one of necessity be Christian, and Christian only, to overcome? I have long thought not...
     
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    If we read the Old Testament the Name of God has many forms, and the most common, JHWH, was revealed to Moses – its appearance in Scripture prior to this time is a redaction of the sacred scribes ... it was a name unknown to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    Elhoim is plural, and non-personal;
    El Shaddai has a disputed origin, one being 'God of the mountain';
    Abraham referred to the God he followed by a Canaanite name, and dedicated shrines to the deity in that name;
    The prefix El is not purely Hebraic, it means 'God' in Hebrew and it means the same in a number of other languages of the region.

    Jehovah is a conflation of consonants of JHWH and the Hebrew vowel points of the word Adonai (Lord) which was used in its place, so has no proper Scriptural heritage, but is largely accepted these days.

    And we have "Abba"

    +++

    Then, of course, the question of when you say God, do you mean the same thing as when I say God? Do we address the same Deity?

    +++

    There are strong esoteric teachings on the invocation of the Divine Name, common to every tradition, and in none is this aspect treated lightly. To say a name is to invoke the presence of that which is named ...

    +++

    And if we get into the Quantum of things ...

    Just some thoughts.

    Thomas




    So we have a two-way converse, names that God reveals to man, and names by which man 'knows' God – the latter cannot equal the former, but if the name is acceptable to God, then the difference is effectively immaterial.

    In the New Testament Jesus tells his nascent church that whatever they 'bind on earth shall be bound in heaven' (Matt 16:19) and this can refer to a Divine Name of human origin.

    Thus Kyrios and Christos become Divine Names attached to the Father and the Son.

    Then, traditionally, we have the litanies which form part of the liturgical celebrations...

    +++
     
  16. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, wil!

    I am glad I posted here, I expect some interesting answers.
    Am I to understand this as power of / in intent? I have long been curious about the superstitious aspects of Christianity...the Bible as a book or cross / crucifix warding off vampires and such. A great deal of superstition in my view is repetition, which might account for the "adding to a prayer" bit.

    While names may have had a different import long ago versus today (which in my view is a wholly cultural phenomenon, there are cultures still in which names carry great weight), we are speaking of supplanting the name of the Christian Messiah with that of a Greek Hero-god. Abram became Abraham, Sarai became Sarah; these are understandable linguistic mutations / evolutions. We are talking of a quantum change from Yashua to Jesus, and the deliberateness in which it was carried out. Why would the *earthly* powers that be contrive such a matter?

    Indeed, but this returns us to intent. And if intent is sufficient, then intent is sufficient for any and all who use that same intent, Christian or not!

    Perhaps...yet I am not so certain in my walk. I am immature enough to require reassurance from the Almighty. Besides, I fail to see where "all" of our desires are of the Father (unless we are truly given over wholly to pursuit of Him and all He represents). If I desire to drink another beer, or smoke another cigarette, or punch some lout in the face; are these too desires of the Father?

    We may be creators in a sense, but not nearly in the same level or sense that G-d is. I have yet to meet anybody who is totally "one with G-d." Even Mother Theresa was not "one with G-d" in the sense being implied, yet I do hold her in higher esteem than most in that regard. Human nature being what it is, we are fallible. Because we are fallible, we can never be "one with G-d" until we shed our infallibility *after* the end of this life. G-d is incorruptible, flesh is corruptible.

    This is a wonderful platitude, I certainly hope it works for you! :)
     
  17. Prober

    Prober Give Us This Day...

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    No, I don't think so necessarily...at least, it doesn't specifically say that...

    Haven't really settled that in my mind...perhaps christian (little c) in nature rather than Christian (big c) by label...(thinking...)
     
  18. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, Thomas!

    I happy to see your post, I was hoping for some substance on the subject!
    A lot of this I knew, some I did not. Thanks. It is a bit outside the OP though, in the sense that I was looking towards the name of "the son", the Christian Messiah. That the G-d of the Jews and the Christians (and I will dare add Muslims) has many names is relatively well known and understood. But for the specific human individual who holds the office of Saviour to have a name markedly different from that He was born with is intriguing to me.

    Ah, good point! So, if the Christian is effectively calling the name of a Greek Hero-god, then perhaps they are *not* calling on who they think they are...?

    Yes, I alluded to this, so you will find me in agreement. So then why do Christians invoke the name of a Pagan god? The scary part is...it works!

    Ah, an association between human intent and spooky action at a distance...cool!

    I am understanding the argument to be that intent is sufficient when it is convenient. If I become used to being called "George," I will eventually answer to that name even though it is not my real name. However, the genuine power that is me, exists in my real name. But because others perceive power in the name of George, they receive that power in leiu of the genuine power latent in my genuine name. Are these two powers the same? of the same source? of the same calibur?

    Perhaps...although I do struggle with this verse. Seems to me one must be in the absolute will of the Father before this can be brought to pass.

    Sure, and if I am not mistaken these are Greek names of office or rank, not proper names in the sense of power names as we have been discussing.

    Thank you as ever, Thomas! :)
     
  19. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Namaste 123,

    Abram and Sarai were not modified by time, but their names were changed while they were alive...in this case I like to think they got the added 'h' as they acted more holy, more heavenly... Many folks at that time had their names completely revised as they became worthy of a new name. A different take than simply the translations from one language to another. Our baby books are replete with ancient meanings of names stemming from Judaic time and beyond (John-Love, Peter-Rock, Faith, etc)
    You know me, I am of the opinion that Jesus was our wayshower, he walked the walk...but he was not alone, there were many others showing us the potential and possiblity...and no you needn't not be Christian, but it is currently my chosen path.
    I think it is. It is all part of our learning in 3d, it is what we came here for, to find our own way home, to make mistakes, to stumble and learn divine principle and divine laws. We don't get that from reading a book or someone to tell us not to touch the hot stove, we learn by doing, and in my mind once we get there...we move on.
    Yes it is our elder brother and wayshower that emulated the ultimate potential. We have fallen short...and those that get close are sainted, or worshipped. Then some others who have peeked behind the veil are in our paranormal books, levitating, bilocating, doing things that our natural laws say are impossible....but all is possible, and when we allow more within our realm of acceptablity...things change along with our perspective and understanding...things change.
     
  20. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    wil's answer may vary. Mine is that you have essentially answered your own question. The "Greek Hero-god" was no less a realization, by the initiates of the Mystery Tradition, of what many an early Christian - the Gnostics, for example ... also the Jewish Essenes - has come to understand as Christ Jesus. Except that the "*earthly* powers that be" have indeed contrived. The case has been made elsewhere; I only call attention to the recognition, by many, that Christianity is one realization among many, unique in some ways, but not a precedent in proclaiming a Messiah, or "God's Son(s)."

    Precisely! :)

    A man (person) can know, and in my experience, we often do, even when we kid ourselves and pretend that we do not. As St. Paul says, the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Our mortal, animal nature has its inclinations, as you point out ... but so does our Spiritual nature. Which will we follow? It is not a one-time choice. "I die daily." Yet as St. Francis makes so clear, "... it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life." Every moment, every hour, of every day. So this is back to works, which are made stronger, or put into proper context, via Faith. {Works, mechanically done, are not the same; nor those done for our own sake, for thus we defeat the Greater Purpose for them!}

    Jesus redeemed his flesh, so can we. He even assisted others to redeem their flesh (animal nature); so can we. He raised the "dead," and so can we. "Greater things than this, ye shall do." We can't just snap our fingers, and hope that we'll suddenly have these abilities, or that God will bridge the gulf of our own spiritual growth for us, and work "miracles" (Great, Holy works) through us. We have to take the steps; it may take lifetimes ... I'd even count on quite a few more, personally. But I don't like to call Jesus a liar. There are deeper meanings to consider, of course.

    I would quote from an online Theosophical glossary (entry under `Jesus,' because the entry sheds much light on this dilemma:

    The Hebrew name Jah or Jehovah became identified in the mind of Christians with the name of Jesus, although Jesus never was in any wise identical with the Jewish Jehovah, but was identified in initiation through his own inner god or Father in Heaven, and the Jewish Jehovah mystically was the regent [Logos] of the planet Saturn.​
    The first three letters in Greek make I.H.S. placed at the head of representations of the crucified Jesus, often said to stand for Iesus Hominum Salvator (Jesus the savior of men) or In hoc signo (in this sign), with reference to the alleged vision of a cross of the Emperor Constantine. Jesus is a form of a worldwide mystery-name, whose importance was its meaning, usually given as a three-letter monogram, analogous to the Sanskrit Aum. We find it in the Greek Gnostic Iao and variants are common in ancient Greece, such as Iasios, Iasion, Iason, Iasos; and initiates were known as Iasides or sons of Iaso. [Jason, of the Argonauts! - but see also, IAO, in the same online glossary.]​
    And yet, for students of the Wisdom Religion (Sophia Perennis), such is impossible. This is made clear in the first part of the above definition. If there is no such thing as "Christ in you, the Hope of Glory," then of course, we may dismiss with this idea completely, and fall into the morass of pure superstition ... whereby a single mispronunciation may spoil the spell altogether. Say the name "Jesus" wrong, and you will cause a plague of locusts, instead of the curing of Susie's leg. Pronounce it as 'Hey-Zeus,' and you will only meet with results if you are Hispanic, or perhaps receive a lightning strike, if you are Greek-American! :rolleyes: :p

    So I feel that those who are saying, "the true, inner intent, within both our heart and mind, is what matters" ... have effectively solved 99% of this puzzle. :)

    As for the esoteric names of God, including the JHVH/YHVH of the Hebrew esoteric tradition (actually it is AHIH in the Kabbalah), I think we are now touching on some of the secrets of Initiation. The very first book provided through Alice Bailey, in 1919, treats of this subject in several chapters toward the end of the book. The book is Initiation, Human and Solar, intended for aspirants (to the Mysteries), disciples and Initiates. This is broad enough to include everyone at CR.

    One brief chapter is on The Giving of the Word, including a section on `The Use of the Word' (why else would it be given?). This chapter references the use of the Sacred Aum and OM, from Sanskrit, the former being a word that binds or imprisons the Soul in matter ... and the OM a word which liberates, or releases it. Disciples and Initiates use both words, since matter is the field of SERVICE for the Soul in incarnation. This refers to practical application, and not abstract speculation.

    Another page of interest on the use of Amen (or Aum), is here, last few paragraphs, and onto the following page.

    And to round this all out, we should not ignore the Eastern tradition of mantra, based on the idea that indeed, Sound holds power ... for it is the Creative Power. But this does not just mean sound as vibration on the physical plane, much less within the short range of human hearing. Isn't this part of our problem when we consider this whole question of TO WHAT does God, or Jesus, or the Christ (or an Angel, and so on) respond, when we say, utter (softly) or even THINK/Pray (about) words like `Jesus' and `G-d?'

    An esoteric approch is that thought is vibration, of a finer nature - or higher frequency than emotion, and emotion, in turn, is but a higher frequency than the various types of physical matter. What we THINK, therefore, is not just stuff in our head, and what we FEEL is not just limbic activity in the brain. Both of these, thought and emotion, are very real forces ... which act upon (those in) our environment. Proof? Walk into a room where someone is experiencing a strong emotion - whether happy, sad, angry, depressed, etc. You often know it, without asking, especially if you are close to this person. And thought? Oh, the power of suggestion, everyday examples of low-grade telepathy, are as common as the air we breathe.

    ~Zag
     

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