What good is the doctrine of Predestination?

[Quahom1]

I dont consider you and idiot, Q. Also, I do agree that man has a free will, but I dont see from scripture that man is sovereign in salvation and that predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of someone's choice. Maybe you can show me a few scriptures that do? How do you understand Romans 8:29 and 1Peter 1:1?

I never said "man" was sovereign in salvation. I said man had choice to accept or reject salvation. I never said God's fore knowledge of man's choice was reason for predestination, either. I said God is sovereign in offering man salvation.

What I said is that God knows every possibilty that the universe (man included), can come to (I don't need conjecture on that point). And what I said is that the book of life is not "OPENED" until the day of judgement. That is in Revelation according to John (chapter six I believe). And what I said was that a man can change his destiny up unto the point of death (that is he can accept the salvation of Jesus in his dying moments, but after...no).
As far as Romans 8 and 1 Peter, this is communication to those who have chosen to accept Christ. At the time, my friend, not everyone knew Jesus. But those that did and accepted His gift were chosen. Remember, this was written at a time when few were selected to have known Jesus. It was a fledgling "faith", and much depended upon the few to make or break that new faith. These were also paramount in continuing the new faith "many are called, few are chosen".

They had to have the "perfect" people to launch this new faith. These "letters" are not to people at large (back then), but to the hopeful new recruits of the time to keep the faith going.

I am not saying their messages do not apply today (perhaps they apply even more so today), but they were originally written for the frightened hopefuls of the day.

The "revolution" of Christianity 2000 years ago, got its start as shakey as the "revolution" of the United States 230 years ago...

There had to be much encouragement by the "heroes" and "patriots" of the times. Paul was such an hero...

 

[Quahom1]

Oops! Well it wouldn't even be anywhere near man's perspective... it was my own. Maybe I should say that observation reveals that the Earth has so far followed some laws that God made, and that framework places a limit on possible outcomes. Free will is more of a selection from those outcomes within that limit. There are many, many compounded outcomes, and maybe someday God will grant me more to choose from, but at this time a trip to Venus for lunch is not one of the available outcomes.

However, unlike any other creation in the universe, God has declared "There is nothing man can not accomplish that he sets his mind to"...just before he confounded the languages at the tower of Babel. God, implied man is capable of anything and everything. Granted, since we are created, we have a beginning. But the open ended statement of God concerning man's potential is, odd to say the least.

v/r

Joshua

 

[Quahom1]

I don't believe in "predestination" per se. I agree with everything else you stated.

As someone (I don't remember whom) stated previously, "If you left your kids alone in a room with a red button and said "play with all the other toys, but don't push the red button" and then closed the door, you would be pretty sure what would happen".

Now see. What if one said to their children "If there is serious trouble, push the red button"?

Why did God pique man's curiosity by declaring something off limits? I think, God wanted to show angels, that man would ultimately turn to Him, given the choice/chance. Or maybe not. But it seems strange that angels fell in rebellion, and one in particular is called the accuser. Then man appears on stage (a little lower than angels, but above animals), and is set up for redemption, and the fallen ones are hell bent (pardon the pun), on making certain that God's second creation of sentients, fails miserably. But unlike the angels, man can turn to God for help (which delights Him to no end).

Like "American democracy", man seems to be an experiment doomed to fail from the start...but something went terribly wrong, and the experiment is working (e.g. man is turning towards God)...

 

[Prober]

Like "American democracy", man seems to be an experiment doomed to fail from the start...but something went terribly wrong, and the experiment is working (e.g. man is turning towards God)...

Pardon the "corniness", but I believe America was destined by G-d to be an example of greatness!

Have we lived up to that?

 

[Quahom1]

Pardon the "corniness", but I believe America was destined by G-d to be an example of greatness!

Have we lived up to that?

After all the brilliant minds came together and put our government into form function and motion, Benjamen Franklin was asked by a common "citizen" to be..."what kind of government do we have?"

With a bemused grin, the august gentleman replied "A Federal Republic...if you can keep it"...

Perhaps destined by God to be an example of greatness, but man is doing his best to screw it straight to hell...

Again, thanks for the opportunity to further my point Prober.

v/r

Joshua

 

[Dondi]

Let me ask you a question. Why dont you believe that God isnt Sovereign in salvation?

I do. God initiated salvation, but it is up to man to respond. It's that free will thing again.

Just because God is soveriegn doesn't mean that He doesn't give latitude to our choices.

View attachment Boundaries.bmp

I believe that within God's soveriegn will He has established boundaries. Picture two circles on inside another. The outer circle represents the boundaries God has set up. If man tries to go beyond those boundaries, then God will act accordingly to prevent him from doing so. In the scheme of world events, God controls just how far a certain dictator or ruler will go. Case in point would be Hitler. I believe that Hitler reached the point that God stopped him from going forward in trying to rule the world. The allies, through the soveriegnty of God, defeated Hitler, but not before he did much damage to the Jewish race in particular. Yet God used the tragedy of the Holocost to bring Jews back to the land of Israel and reform into a nation again, just as was predicted in Ezekiel 36.

The inner circle represents where God would want us to reside in His Will according to the scriptures being led by the Spirit. He would prefer we be in that inner circle, for it represents salvation to all that call upon Him. To be in the inner circle is to be in the center of His will for us. But we even we as Christians find it difficult to always be in that will. But if we are led by the Spirit, we will find ourselves there.

My main point in this illustration is to demonstrate how God is soveriegn, yet does allow man to have the element of free will within the boundaies of His Soveriegnty.

 

[bananabrain]

the jewish mystical tradition speaks of five dimensions, three of "world" (ie the three dimensions of space) one of "year" (ie the fourth dimension of time) and one of "soul" (the axis between good and evil). a given action at any point in this continuum (which can be characterised as a "5D hypercube") can be either good or evil, depending on who's doing what where and when - so turning off a light would be neutral during the week and "evil" (ie forbidden) on the Sabbath.

now, we can easily visualise a 3D or even a 4D trajectory in our minds, but a five-dimensional space presents difficulties to those untrained in this tradition. obviously, to G!D, this presents no such difficulty as the Divine would be able to Conceive and Visualise all possibilities which a trajectory might take in 5 dimensions - *simultaneously* of course, because time is, from G!D's poV, effectively just another variable in which Divine Vision can move at Will. in other words, time may be linear to us, but it is a point to G!D. this means that all outcomes effectively exist and do not exist *simultaneously*. in other words, something can be described as "predetermined" from the Divine Perspective (as every event is/has/will simultaneously happened, happening and happen - you see how language doesn't really cope with this!) whilst at the same time, because time is linear to us, be subject to our own human free will to sin, not to sin or to repent.

Q's quote from proverbs is *extremely* aposite on this point; king solomon (the traditional author of proverbs) being a master of mystical philosophy.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Virtual_Cliff]

Silas, my scriptural reference is

Choose life

I can't give you chapter and verse right now but you'll know it's St Paul.
Choose life. There is choice.

I don't go along with all this fallen angels malarky. I agree with bananabrain, creation is a done deal from God's point of view. From ours, we're still making it up as we go along.

I don't know if you have kids. If you do, you know how it is. You lay down the rules and you hope they stick to them. If they don't, you're sad, because you know it'll all end in tears. But you still love them, and you wouldn't want to stand over them all the time forcing them to do the right thing. So you let them go, and tell them "I'm always there if you need me". Maybe that's why Jesus called God "Father".

 

[Dondi]

this presents no such difficulty as the Divine would be able to Conceive and Visualise all possibilities which a trajectory might take in 5 dimensions - *simultaneously* of course, because time is, from G!D's poV, effectively just another variable in which Divine Vision can move at Will. in other words, time may be linear to us, but it is a point to G!D. this means that all outcomes effectively exist and do not exist *simultaneously*. in other words, something can be described as "predetermined" from the Divine Perspective (as every event is/has/will simultaneously happened, happening and happen - you see how language doesn't really cope with this!) whilst at the same time, because time is linear to us, be subject to our own human free will to sin, not to sin or to repent.

I've thought along these lines very much. If God is eternal, then He encompasses all of eternity: past, present, and future.

 

[Prober]

Again, thanks for the opportunity to further my point Prober.

v/r

Joshua

You're welcome.

 

[Silas]

For Q

I never said "man" was sovereign in salvation. I said man had choice to accept or reject salvation.

If salvation is based on man's choice, then man is sovereign in salvation. Man would have the last word on if he is saved or not.

I never said God's fore knowledge of man's choice was reason for predestination, either. I said God is sovereign in offering man salvation.

There are only two options to God's electing someone to salvation: 1. God foresaw who would have faith and therefore elected those people to salvation. 2. God chose in and of his own free will, the right as Sovereign ruler of the universe, to elect by grace, one guilty sinner over another.

What I said is that God knows every possibilty that the universe (man included), can come to (I don't need conjecture on that point).

I agree.

And what I said is that the book of life is not "OPENED" until the day of judgement.

The names written in the book of Life were written before the worlds were. The names therein were there before the people came into existence; no one written in that book will be taken out. I base this on Romans 8:30. "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Notice that there are no drop outs from the called ones. They are predestined to be justified and glorified.

And what I said was that a man can change his destiny up unto the point of death (that is he can accept the salvation of Jesus in his dying moments, but after...no).

This contradicts too many scripture, e.g., John 10:27-29, Proverb 16:4, etc., and so I'll have to label it conjecture until you can prove otherwise from scripture.

As far as Romans 8 and 1 Peter, this is communication to those who have chosen to accept Christ. At the time, my friend, not everyone knew Jesus. But those that did and accepted His gift were chosen

Where do you get that from the text? No where does it say "God foresaw faith." You would have to add that in to make your presuppossition of "free will" or "self-determining choice" make sense. I would insist on leaving the scripture as is and understand "foreknow" in the same sense as Jesus is foreknown in 1Peter 1:20 or the way God knew Israel in Amos 3:1-2, or the way God foreknew his people in Romans 11:1–2, etc.

Remember, this was written at a time when few were selected to have known Jesus.

This contradicts too many scripture. Jesus' sheep was already "foreknown from before the worlds were, or before the foundations of the world."

It was a fledgling "faith", and much depended upon the few to make or break that new faith. These were also paramount in continuing the new faith "many are called, few are chosen".

Here again you make man sovereign in salvation because you assume that God elects a man based on supposition of someone's foreseen faith. I maintain that cannot be the case for three reasons: 1. No one seeks God to even find Him (Romans 3:11) 2. No one can come to Christ in faith unless the Father first draw them (John 6:44), and 3., God gives the gift of saving faith to whom he wills. Remember, "it is not up to the man that wills or runs, but of God who shows mercy." "Salvation is of the Lord."

 

[Silas]

I do. God initiated salvation, but it is up to man to respond. It's that free will thing again.

Just because God is soveriegn doesn't mean that He doesn't give latitude to our choices.

View attachment 351

I believe that within God's soveriegn will He has established boundaries. Picture two circles on inside another. The outer circle represents the boundaries God has set up. If man tries to go beyond those boundaries, then God will act accordingly to prevent him from doing so. In the scheme of world events, God controls just how far a certain dictator or ruler will go. Case in point would be Hitler. I believe that Hitler reached the point that God stopped him from going forward in trying to rule the world. The allies, through the soveriegnty of God, defeated Hitler, but not before he did much damage to the Jewish race in particular. Yet God used the tragedy of the Holocost to bring Jews back to the land of Israel and reform into a nation again, just as was predicted in Ezekiel 36.

The inner circle represents where God would want us to reside in His Will according to the scriptures being led by the Spirit. He would prefer we be in that inner circle, for it represents salvation to all that call upon Him. To be in the inner circle is to be in the center of His will for us. But we even we as Christians find it difficult to always be in that will. But if we are led by the Spirit, we will find ourselves there.

My main point in this illustration is to demonstrate how God is soveriegn, yet does allow man to have the element of free will within the boundaies of His Soveriegnty.

I agree that man has a free will and that God uses man's free choices as means to bring about certain ends. But, I dont agree that certain men and certian circumstances occure by accident. For instance: I believe it was God who put Hilter in power. God is the one who raises up kings/rulers (good or bad) and puts people in power. That said, if you believe that God left man to make a self-determining choice in his salvation, I have one question. How could a man dead in sin (John 8:34), who cannot understand spiritual things, namely the gospel (1Cor 2:14), and who cannot keep any of God's laws (Romans 8:7), choose within himself the abality to keep the highest law - namely to deny self and follow after Christ? Futhermore, how can the natural man do this amazing thing when he does not even seek to find God (Romans 3:11)?

 

[Silas]

Doni,

The following scripture is a good picture for what occurs in any of us that are saved:

"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." (Acts 16:14)

In our natural state, we do not understand spiritual things and the gospel to us is foolish. Jesus said, "unless you are born again you cannot even 'see' the kingdom of God." God said that in regeneration (the born again process) He is the one that starts it (and ends it). For scriptural proof, note Ezk 36:25-27. We are all dead like Lazarus. We cannot hear God's call or understand his truth. We are totally seperated from Him and willingly so. And, like Lazarus, God commands us to hear and raise, and we do. Like Lydia in the book of Acts, the Lord has to open our hearts for us to hear before we can ever pay serious attention to the gospel. God breathes on dry and dead bones and gives them life again. Pior to God doing a work in man, it is impossible for anyone to come to Christ. No one loves him pior to convertion.

 

[bananabrain]

hitler was *elected* by human beings. they had a choice to do so or not. similarly, they had a choice to behave the way they did or not and are, i believe, Judged on that choice. hitler had the same choices. as someone said once, we should not ask "where was G!D in the holocaust?" but rather "where was humanity?" - and, as we see, humanity intervened eventually, but too late for millions of my co-religionists, including my wife's family. G!D does not always Intervene to save us from ourselves and hasn't done for several thousand years. the paradigm is pharaoh - G!D may have "Hardened pharaoh's heart" but he still maintained his choice to follow his inclination or not. only after the first-born were killed did pharaoh change his mind - and then only temporarily.

saying that G!D "put hitler in power" is an insult to G!D and a denial of the choice we made in the garden of eden to manage our own affairs.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Prober]

we should not ask "where was G!D in the holocaust?" but rather "where was humanity?"

THIS is the point! Each person can (could have) stand up and say "I will not be a part of this. This is wrong"!

- and, as we see, humanity intervened eventually, but too late for millions of my co-religionists, including my wife's family.

Sorry B...

saying that G!D "put hitler in power" is an insult to G!D and a denial of the choice we made in the garden of eden to manage our own affairs.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Silas]

hitler was *elected* by human beings. they had a choice to do so or not. similarly, they had a choice to behave the way they did or not and are, i believe, Judged on that choice. hitler had the same choices. as someone said once, we should not ask "where was G!D in the holocaust?" but rather "where was humanity?" - and, as we see, humanity intervened eventually, but too late for millions of my co-religionists, including my wife's family. G!D does not always Intervene to save us from ourselves and hasn't done for several thousand years. the paradigm is pharaoh - G!D may have "Hardened pharaoh's heart" but he still maintained his choice to follow his inclination or not. only after the first-born were killed did pharaoh change his mind - and then only temporarily.

saying that G!D "put hitler in power" is an insult to G!D and a denial of the choice we made in the garden of eden to manage our own affairs.

b'shalom

bananabrain

To say that Hilter rose to power by his own will or because of circumstance is to demote God to someone who isnt in total control. In one of his letters to Erasmus, Luther said, "Your thoughts of God are too human". I think this is the problem with a lot of people today. We've unknownly traded scripture for conjecture and what we think God is like. I think it is clear from scripture that God is the one who puts people in power. I am not saying that man are robots or pupets and have no wills - we do have choice - we are moral agents responsible for our actions. That said however, I affirm from scripture that God is sovereign and that He is "The Governor among the nations" (Ps. 22:28),setting up kingdoms, overthrowing empires, and determining the course of dynasties as pleaseth Him best. Futhermore, that He is the Most High, doing according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, so that none can stay His hand or say unto Him what doest Thou? (Dan. 4:35). God is sovereign! Heis the Almighty, the Possessor of all power in heaven and earth, so that none can defeat His counsels, thwart His purpose, or resist His will (Ps. 115:3). To say that God put Hitler in power is to be biblical and to stand in awe of His wise counsel.

To declare that the Creator’s plans has been frustrated by sin, is to dethrone God. To suggest that God was taken by surprise by Hitler's raise to power or his choice in the holocus and that He is now attempting to remedy an unforeseen calamity, is to degrade the Most High to the level of a finite, erring mortal. To argue that man is the determiner of his own destiny, and that therefore he has the power to checkmate his Maker, is to strip God of the attribute of Omnipotence. To say that the creature has burst the hounds assigned by his Creator, and that God is now practically a helpless Spectator before the sin and suffering entailed by Adam’s fall, is to repudiate the express declaration of Holy Scripture, namely, "Surely the wrath of man shall praise Thee: the remainder of wrath shalt Thou restrain"(Ps. 76:10). In a word, to deny the sovereignty of God is to enter upon a path which, if followed to its logical end, is to arrive at blank atheism.

 

[Silas]

hitler was *elected* by human beings. they had a choice to do so or not. similarly, they had a choice to behave the way they did or not and are, i believe, Judged on that choice. hitler had the same choices. as someone said once, we should not ask "where was G!D in the holocaust?" but rather "where was humanity?" - and, as we see, humanity intervened eventually, but too late for millions of my co-religionists, including my wife's family. G!D does not always Intervene to save us from ourselves and hasn't done for several thousand years. the paradigm is pharaoh - G!D may have "Hardened pharaoh's heart" but he still maintained his choice to follow his inclination or not. only after the first-born were killed did pharaoh change his mind - and then only temporarily.

saying that G!D "put hitler in power" is an insult to G!D and a denial of the choice we made in the garden of eden to manage our own affairs.

b'shalom

bananabrain

To say that Hilter rose to power by his own will or because of circumstance is to demote God to someone who isnt in total control. In one of his letters to Erasmus, Luther said, "Your thoughts of God are too human". I think this is the problem with a lot of people today. We've unknownly traded scripture for conjecture and what we think God is like. I think it is clear from scripture that God is the one who puts people in power. I am not saying that man are robots or pupets and have no wills - we do have choice - we are moral agents responsible for our actions. That said however, I affirm from scripture that God is sovereign and that He is "The Governor among the nations" (Ps. 22:28),setting up kingdoms, overthrowing empires, and determining the course of dynasties as pleaseth Him best. Futhermore, that He is the Most High, doing according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, so that none can stay His hand or say unto Him what doest Thou? (Dan. 4:35). God is sovereign! Heis the Almighty, the Possessor of all power in heaven and earth, so that none can defeat His counsels, thwart His purpose, or resist His will (Ps. 115:3). To say that God put Hitler in power is to be biblical and to stand in awe of His wise counsel.

To declare that the Creator’s plans has been frustrated by sin, is to dethrone God. To suggest that God was taken by surprise by Hitler's raise to power or his choice in the holocus and that He is now attempting to remedy an unforeseen calamity, is to degrade the Most High to the level of a finite, erring mortal. To argue that man is the determiner of his own destiny, and that therefore he has the power to checkmate his Maker, is to strip God of the attribute of Omnipotence. To say that the creature has burst the hounds assigned by his Creator, and that God is now practically a helpless Spectator before the sin and suffering entailed by Adam’s fall, is to repudiate the express declaration of Holy Scripture, namely, "Surely the wrath of man shall praise Thee: the remainder of wrath shalt Thou restrain"(Ps. 76:10). In a word, to deny the sovereignty of God is to enter upon a path which, if followed to its logical end, is to arrive at blank atheism.

 

[Dondi]

I agree that man has a free will and that God uses man's free choices as means to bring about certain ends. But, I dont agree that certain men and certian circumstances occure by accident. For instance: I believe it was God who put Hilter in power. God is the one who raises up kings/rulers (good or bad) and puts people in power. That said, if you believe that God left man to make a self-determining choice in his salvation, I have one question. How could a man dead in sin (John 8:34), who cannot understand spiritual things, namely the gospel (1Cor 2:14), and who cannot keep any of God's laws (Romans 8:7), choose within himself the abality to keep the highest law - namely to deny self and follow after Christ? Futhermore, how can the natural man do this amazing thing when he does not even seek to find God (Romans 3:11)?

A drowning man knows when he is drowning, even though he is helpless to help himself. And he understands that when one tosses a life preserver, he needs to grab it and hold on.

As far a Hitler, are you saying that it was God's will that 6 million Jews would perish in the Holocost and that unspeakable evil would fall on those subjected to the "medical experiements" conducted by our good Doctor Josef Mengele?

 

[Silas]

A drowning man knows when he is drowning, even though he is helpless to help himself. And he understands that when one tosses a life preserver, he needs to grab it and hold on.

As far a Hitler, are you saying that it was God's will that 6 million Jews would perish in the Holocost and that unspeakable evil would fall on those subjected to the "medical experiements" conducted by our good Doctor Josef Mengele?

You're right about the drowing man. About a God hating sinner now, that is another story. The sinner knows that he is going down intrinsictly, but he supresses the truth in unrighteousness that he might continue to enjoy sin's pleasure. Do not assume that man wants God prior to convertion. As for the Holocost, my answer is Amos 3:6..."Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" Nothing ever happens apart from God's will.

 

[Prober]

If Hitler were drowning, would a person be obligated to save him?