Unclean?

Prober

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Peter wanted to present the appearance of propriety when with the Jewish brethren and had this vision...(Acts 11)

1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,

5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.

What do we understand from this?
 
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Peter wanted to present the appearance of propriety when with the Jewish brethren and had this vision...(Acts 11)

1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,

5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.

What do we understand from this?

It is not what goes into the mouth and out the body that is unclean, but what can come from man's heart, that is where treachery lay...

Peter's attitude was "unclean", and God was pointing that out. What would be the next step? People...

Who are unclean and unworthy of the holiness of God? All. But what was God telling Peter? Bring them all into me. Let your heart be open and not condenscending, for none are forbidden to come to me (the Lord God).

In otherwords Peter, don't pick and choose who comes to me and who does not. It isn't your place since all are given opportunity to know me, despite your personal predjudice/discrimination...and I would rather you lead them to me, than have you expell/rebuff them.

God was telling Peter to accept all men who sought God, not just the chosen few. Only difference is that Peter had a dream, and Paul had to be blinded in order to see the truth...

How amazing our Lord and His ways. :)

v/r

Joshua
 
Also ...

Here we can see that the Jerusalem Christians converted from Judaism, contested with Peter that the Gospel was for the Jews alone, not for the Gentile.

The tension between the Jews and Gentiles was immediate and sometimes violent. There were running street fights recorded in Rome, for example.

This tension is visible here, and later in Acts when Paul berrates Peter for siding with the Jerusalem contingent who refused to eat with the Gentile converts. And of course, Paul had to plead his case before the Apostles that the Christian was not obliged to accept all the Jewish prescriptions.

+++

These tensions remained, some Judaic-Christian sects such as the Ebionites and the Nazarenes for example, observed strict Jewish Tradition; only accepted Matthew as authoratitive, Paul was declared apostate; the Virgin Birth and the Divinity of Christ were denied. They might well have been followers of John the Baptist who did not accept Jesus as the Messiah but rather as a herald of the Messianic Age, and therefore life to be lived according to the social ethic and the Law, as taught on the Sermon on the Mount, which would be the way of life.

Later such sects were lumped in with the gnostics, which in common currency gives them a glamour they do not reightly deserve. The later Ebionites were pseudognostic in the sense that they denied the gnostic teaching of the demiurge – ie there is one God and He is the God of Scripture - and although adopted many of the dualistic ideas common among the various gnostic sects, some pro-gnostic sources have argued otherwise.

Thomas
 
the idea is not that non-jews themselves are "unclean" (although they would be in a state of *cultic* uncleanliness, which is not the same thing, although the translation would fail to note the distinction) but that their food and utensils would be thereby impermissible for jews to eat of and from. hence, jews would not be able to eat with non-jews, particularly in the contemporary environment, in which people ate with their hands from a shared dish. you can see how some people (particularly the ignorant or uneducated) would understand that as "urgh, can't eat with those non-jews, they're unclean" - whereas it's actually a question of kashrut, in that it would be unreasonable (and still is) to expect non-jews to provide kosher dining facilities. it is abundantly clear how this argument would play out in the environment of the early "jews for jesus".

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Peter's attitude was "unclean", and God was pointing that out. What would be the next step? People...

Who are unclean and unworthy of the holiness of God? All. But what was God telling Peter? Bring them all into me. Let your heart be open and not condenscending, for none are forbidden to come to me (the Lord God).

In otherwords Peter, don't pick and choose who comes to me and who does not. It isn't your place since all are given opportunity to know me, despite your personal predjudice/discrimination...and I would rather you lead them to me, than have you expell/rebuff them.

God was telling Peter to accept all men who sought God, not just the chosen few. Only difference is that Peter had a dream, and Paul had to be blinded in order to see the truth...

How amazing our Lord and His ways. :)

v/r

Joshua

Amen! Amazing indeed.:)

How can we, therefore, choose whom we will accept? Adulterers, homosexuals, prostitutes, drug users, etc?

I say we can't.
 
but that their food and utensils would be thereby impermissible for jews to eat of and from. hence, jews would not be able to eat with non-jews, particularly in the contemporary environment, in which people ate with their hands from a shared dish. you can see how some people (particularly the ignorant or uneducated) would understand that as "urgh, can't eat with those non-jews, they're unclean"

bananabrain

Indeed! There are comments in the NT re Jesus and his disciples not washing thier hands.:eek:
 
Prober said:
Amen! Amazing indeed.:)

How can we, therefore, choose whom we will accept? Adulterers, homosexuals, prostitutes, drug users, etc?

I say we can't.

Not unless we want the same standard applied to ourselves. ;)

Maybe "accept" is a term that falls short of the goal. Maybe it is not necessarily always our job to accept, but more often simply to love?

InPeace,
InLove
 
This tension is visible here, and later in Acts when Paul berrates Peter for siding with the Jerusalem contingent who refused to eat with the Gentile converts. And of course, Paul had to plead his case before the Apostles that the Christian was not obliged to accept all the Jewish prescriptions.

Thomas

I really would like to have been there to see this. For me, it's fascinating to think of how much of a struggle that must have been to be torn between giving up your traditions and reaching out to the world and their different ideas.

Perhaps it was similar to the struggles we have between "liberal" and "conservative" viewpoints (although I'm sure it was much more intense).

Spying on each other to see who's circumcised, etc.:D
 
Not unless we want the same standard applied to ourselves. ;)

Maybe "accept" is a term that falls short of the goal. Maybe it is not necessarily always our job to accept, but more often simply to love?

InPeace,
InLove

Very true...

I don't mean to suggest that we have to condone any specific behavior, but everyone can be welcomed and brought to G-d.
 
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yeah--I like that word "welcome". Jesus welcomed me....

InPeace,
InLove
 
Amen! Amazing indeed.:)

How can we, therefore, choose whom we will accept? Adulterers, homosexuals, prostitutes, drug users, etc?

I say we can't.

But Jesus states that is precisely what we are to do, Prober. According to Christian tradition, Jesus did not come for the healthy, but for the wretched, the sick, the anxious, the down in heart...

He did not share the majority of His meals and His time with kings and princes, but rather with paupers, prostitutes, tax collectors, carpenters, children and fishermen (common folk, salt of the earth).

He never however, said to accept their ways. He simply said accept them, for they are His.

Did you ever drive past a man or woman standing in the median by a stop light, holding a sign that said, "hungry and broke, please help"? Of course you have. I think we all have. What was your first reaction? Look anywhere but at the person in dire straits? Roll up your car window? Turn up your radio to drown out your conflicting thoughts? Drive past as quick as possible? Maybe get angry at them for being in the position they are in, thus making you feel the way you feel?

Or maybe you gave the down in luck, a 20 spot, then drove away thinking you helped...for about 60 seconds, until reality comes knocking and tells you that chump change will be good for a meal or two (or a bottle of booze), but not much else...

Everything leads up to one thing, denial. We don't want to deal with the imperfect in life. It bothers us or enrages us. Truth is Jesus was pointing out quite clearly that people are exactly what we should be interested in. Our fellow man IS our business. We as Christ's representitives/followers should be shining examples of leadership in aggressively pursuing the rectification of the hardships of others.

He never said it would be easy or pleasant. He simply said "do it for my sake"...:eek:

v/r

Joshua
 
Thanks, Q. I would venture to say that when we choose Love, the acceptance factor naturally would follow. After all, we love Him because He first loves us. He loves us, welcomes us, accepts us...we follow Him and do the same for others....

InPeace,
InLove
 
Thanks, Q. I would venture to say that when we choose Love, the acceptance factor naturally would follow. After all, we love Him because He first loves us. He loves us, welcomes us, accepts us...we follow Him and do the same for others....

InPeace,
InLove

He accepts us, but check you sin at the door. ;)
 
But Jesus states that is precisely what we are to do, Prober. According to Christian tradition, Jesus did not come for the healthy, but for the wretched, the sick, the anxious, the down in heart...
Well, you got me on that one.:)
He never however, said to accept their ways. He simply said accept them, for they are His.
Yes, absolutely.
Did you ever drive past a man or woman standing in the median by a stop light, holding a sign that said, "hungry and broke, please help"? Of course you have. I think we all have. What was your first reaction? Look anywhere but at the person in dire straits? Roll up your car window? Turn up your radio to drown out your conflicting thoughts? Drive past as quick as possible? Maybe get angry at them for being in the position they are in, thus making you feel the way you feel?

Or maybe you gave the down in luck, a 20 spot, then drove away thinking you helped...for about 60 seconds, until reality comes knocking and tells you that chump change will be good for a meal or two (or a bottle of booze), but not much else...
Every morning, I ask G-d to help me find someone to help in some way. It's not as much for them as it is for me - because I recognize in myself that "rolling up the window" thing you mentioned.

I don't help everyone. I wait (and listen) for G-d to impress me to help (and He does).
Everything leads up to one thing, denial. We don't want to deal with the imperfect in life. It bothers us or enrages us. Truth is Jesus was pointing out quite clearly that people are exactly what we should be interested in. Our fellow man IS our business. We as Christ's representitives/followers should be shining examples of leadership in aggressively pursuing the rectification of the hardships of others.

He never said it would be easy or pleasant. He simply said "do it for my sake"...:eek:

v/r

Joshua

Amen.
 
I was actually thinking that He took my coat and wore it out before He gave me His. ;)

InPeace,
InLove
 
the idea is not that non-jews themselves are "unclean" (although they would be in a state of *cultic* uncleanliness, which is not the same thing, although the translation would fail to note the distinction) but that their food and utensils would be thereby impermissible for jews to eat of and from. hence, jews would not be able to eat with non-jews, particularly in the contemporary environment, in which people ate with their hands from a shared dish. you can see how some people (particularly the ignorant or uneducated) would understand that as "urgh, can't eat with those non-jews, they're unclean" - whereas it's actually a question of kashrut, in that it would be unreasonable (and still is) to expect non-jews to provide kosher dining facilities. it is abundantly clear how this argument would play out in the environment of the early "jews for jesus".

b'shalom

bananabrain

BB, understood. However, in the Christian world, it is a rule to do nothing that would put a stumbling block before another when it comes to God (at least that is the way my parents taught me). So, the precedent would be to insure that when inviting a Jew to dinner, to insure that all preparations were done in a "kosher" way...thus the dinner would be enjoyable to all and the dialogue would be easy, informative and pleasant. Hence the evening would be memorable to all...(I think that is called being a good host). :D

v/r

Joshua
 
Kindest Regards, InLove!
Not unless we want the same standard applied to ourselves. ;)

Maybe "accept" is a term that falls short of the goal. Maybe it is not necessarily always our job to accept, but more often simply to love?
If not "accept," how about "tolerate?" Which gives us an opportunity to love the foolishness out of somebody, even if it takes a clue-by-four upside the head to do so.
 
Kindest Regards, Q!
According to Christian tradition, Jesus did not come for the healthy, but for the wretched, the sick, the anxious, the down in heart...

He did not share the majority of His meals and His time with kings and princes, but rather with paupers, prostitutes, tax collectors, carpenters, children and fishermen (common folk, salt of the earth).

He never however, said to accept their ways. He simply said accept them, for they are His.
Amen.

Did you ever drive past a man or woman standing in the median by a stop light, holding a sign that said, "hungry and broke, please help"? Of course you have. I think we all have. What was your first reaction? Look anywhere but at the person in dire straits? Roll up your car window? Turn up your radio to drown out your conflicting thoughts? Drive past as quick as possible? Maybe get angry at them for being in the position they are in, thus making you feel the way you feel?

Or maybe you gave the down in luck, a 20 spot, then drove away thinking you helped...for about 60 seconds, until reality comes knocking and tells you that chump change will be good for a meal or two (or a bottle of booze), but not much else...
I am pretty sure I will be chastized here, perhaps I deserve and/or need it. I think this specific example flirts with that boundary between assisting and enabling destructive behavior. The trouble is it is so difficult to tell which concerning a stranger.

Every night I drive home from work, there is one of a small number of "homeless" people standing on various medians or corners for the first half mike or so as I drive past the hospital and university campuses. There is a Catholic charity homeless shelter about 2 miles up the road (I have served meals there in the past). Anyway, especially considering these homeless individuals, it seems the same faces on a revolving basis. Now, mind you, I am effectively handicapped. I worked my way off of disability payments because I felt with the proper training I could still use my mind. I got my degree late in life, and I've been busting my tail as best I can. So it strikes a resonant chord in me...these young men that seem to be in relatively good health panhandling.

Now, working for a VA hospital, I am aware there are homeless veterans in the area, and likely some of them may count among the faces I see. Certainly I do not know these men as individuals. I do know that I had the bejebers scared out of me when I first went to the homeless shelter, arrived a little early and decided to park across the street for a minute and wait on my friends, and was immediately swarmed upon by a small number of obviously intoxicated people (stoned on what I don't know and didn't care to find out), all looking for handouts.

Now, don't get me wrong, I have in the past offered others elsewhere that claimed they were homeless and hungry to buy them a meal or give them my lunch, an offer they declined in preference to cash I would not give them. As I said elsewhere, it is a delicate balance to assist one bent on foolishness without becoming an enabler. I would gladly feed a hungry person, I will not give cash to an addict.

So while you have a point in essence...it is a judgement call that must be made on the fly. Unfortunately, past experience tells me to leave well enough alone, the odds sadly are not in favor. I would happily give a job to anyone looking for work if I had work to offer...of course, I've heard the stories of watching the shelter clear out when somebody came in with an offer of work, a lot of these "homeless" people are really homeless by choice. It is a sad way to live, but it is the choice they make and continue to make.

We can't really help anybody who isn't ready to be helped. Until then we might make ourselves available, if we can do so in a way that threatens neither ourselves/families or the person in need. But unless and until that person decides to change, it is their choice. Some of this may be social and economic, OK, I'll grant. It's hard to excuse illness, mental or physical. But an able bodied person, especially in this day and age, has the choice. The choice to give up on themselves and society, or to participate and make something of themselves.

Everything leads up to one thing, denial. We don't want to deal with the imperfect in life. It bothers us or enrages us. Truth is Jesus was pointing out quite clearly that people are exactly what we should be interested in. Our fellow man IS our business. We as Christ's representitives/followers should be shining examples of leadership in aggressively pursuing the rectification of the hardships of others.
Maybe I am in denial. Maybe I am rationalizing. Maybe I am jaded. But I like to think I am being realistic. I can't save the world, I don't have it in me. I don't have the resources, I don't have the stamina, I don't have the wherewithal. But I will gladly assist where G-d directs me. And as I am fond of saying, I will help anybody help themselves...but I don't do handouts, sorry.

He never said it would be easy or pleasant. He simply said "do it for my sake"...:eek:
Yes, and when He speaks, I listen. Otherwise, its my call, and I try to use wisdom, experience and better judgement in these matters.

"Help" seems to be another relative term...what I mean by help is food in the belly, clothes on the back and a warm bed. To others, "help" is the next rock of crack cocaine.
 
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