Islam in the time of the advent of the Mahdi

Popeyesays

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"O people! a time will come to you when Islam would be capsized as a pot is capsized will all its contents. O people, Allah has protected from that He might be hard on you but He has not spared you from being put on trial. Allah the Sublimest of all speakers has said: `Verily in this are signs and We do only try (the people).' [Qur'an 23:30]" -Imam Ali, Nahj'ul Balagha, Sermon 102, part 2"Verily, a time will come upon you [Muslims] wherein nothing will be more concealed than the truth, nothing more manifest than falsehood, and nothing more than lies about God and His Apostle [Muhammad]. The people of that time will possess no commodity more difficult to sell than the Book when it is correctly recited, or one more in demand when its passages are misinterpreted. There will be throughout all lands nothing more detested than good deeds, or more renowned than evil ones. The reciters of the Qur'an will have cast it away, and those who memorize it will have deliberately erased it from their minds. The book and its disciples will, on that day, be ostracized and outcast, two friends together on the road, to whom no one will offer shelter. The Book and its disciples will be, in that age, among the people and yet neither among them nor with them. For error is incompatible with guidance. Even though the Book and its disciples might come together, the people would agree to keep separate [Muslims and the sects of Islam will be disunited among themselves]. They would divert from the community -as if they were the leaders of the Qur'an rather than it being their leader. Nothing will remain of it among them save the name; they will know nothing of it save its calligraphy and script. Before, they had not made an example of the righteous by maiming them, or called their sincerity towards God a lie, or punished good deeds with the penalties for crimes. They who preceded you perished because they went on hoping for too long and their allotted terms expired. Then the Promised One [Mahdi] descended, by whom excuses are rejected and upon whom repentance has no effect, and with whom are the calamity and the affliction." -Ali ibn Abu Talib "Nahj'ul-Balagha [The Path of Eloquence]"Regards,Scott
 

imranshaykh

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"O people! a time will come to you when Islam would be capsized as a pot is capsized will all its contents. O people, Allah has protected from that He might be hard on you but He has not spared you from being put on trial. Allah the Sublimest of all speakers has said: `Verily in this are signs and We do only try (the people).' [Qur'an 23:30]" -Imam Ali, Nahj'ul Balagha, Sermon 102, part 2"Verily, a time will come upon you [Muslims] wherein nothing will be more concealed than the truth, nothing more manifest than falsehood, and nothing more than lies about God and His Apostle [Muhammad]. The people of that time will possess no commodity more difficult to sell than the Book when it is correctly recited, or one more in demand when its passages are misinterpreted. There will be throughout all lands nothing more detested than good deeds, or more renowned than evil ones. The reciters of the Qur'an will have cast it away, and those who memorize it will have deliberately erased it from their minds. The book and its disciples will, on that day, be ostracized and outcast, two friends together on the road, to whom no one will offer shelter. The Book and its disciples will be, in that age, among the people and yet neither among them nor with them. For error is incompatible with guidance. Even though the Book and its disciples might come together, the people would agree to keep separate [Muslims and the sects of Islam will be disunited among themselves]. They would divert from the community -as if they were the leaders of the Qur'an rather than it being their leader. Nothing will remain of it among them save the name; they will know nothing of it save its calligraphy and script. Before, they had not made an example of the righteous by maiming them, or called their sincerity towards God a lie, or punished good deeds with the penalties for crimes. They who preceded you perished because they went on hoping for too long and their allotted terms expired. Then the Promised One [Mahdi] descended, by whom excuses are rejected and upon whom repentance has no effect, and with whom are the calamity and the affliction." -Ali ibn Abu Talib "Nahj'ul-Balagha [The Path of Eloquence]"Regards,Scott

Good, very good. Now tell us where this occurs in Nahjul Balagha? I am asking only so that I can read it in its source language and check your translation of the same. FYI, sermon 102 does not have 2 parts...

Also,can I know what is the opinion of the Bahais about Nahjal Balagha - do the Bahais accept it in its entirety or just selectively?

Regards,
 

Popeyesays

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Good, very good. Now tell us where this occurs in Nahjul Balagha? I am asking only so that I can read it in its source language and check your translation of the same. FYI, sermon 102 does not have 2 parts...

Also,can I know what is the opinion of the Bahais about Nahjal Balagha - do the Bahais accept it in its entirety or just selectively?

Regards,

All opinions expressed are my own, Imran. Baha`i's as a monolithic debate team do not exist.

As to selectivity, you practice selectivity all the time--sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

I'll get back to you on the the precise citation in the original language.

Scott
 

imranshaykh

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All opinions expressed are my own, Imran. Baha`i's as a monolithic debate team do not exist.

As to selectivity, you practice selectivity all the time--sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

I'll get back to you on the the precise citation in the original language.

Scott

Dear Scott:

All that is fine. You have not told me the Bahai viewpoint about Nahjal Balagha. If you dont have a Bahai viewpoint, can you share your own please.

I keenly await the exact citation. Dont worry about the source language. Just tell me where the quote exists in Nahjal Balagha.

Regards,
Imran
 

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Dear Scott:

All that is fine. You have not told me the Bahai viewpoint about Nahjal Balagha. If you dont have a Bahai viewpoint, can you share your own please.

I keenly await the exact citation. Dont worry about the source language. Just tell me where the quote exists in Nahjal Balagha.

Regards,
Imran

Again my friend Khazeh came through for me:

Dear Scott

The numbering of these sermons is slightly varied hence the difficulty of correlation but here it is
It is numbered 103 Nahj al-Balaghah

O' people! a time will come to you when Islam would be capsized as a pot is capsized with all its contents. O' people, Allah has protected you from that He might be hard on you but He has not spared you from being put on trial. Allah the Sublimest of all speakers has said:
Verily in this are signs and We do only try (the people). (Qur'an, 23:30)
And as you see under 103
Sermon 103
About abstemiousness and fear of Allah [URL]http://us.f826.mail.yahoo.com/ym/us/ShowLetter?box=Inbox&MsgId=5524_42439297_11488817_2025_12520_0_68741_57151_3807452067&bodyPart=2&YY=94113&y5beta=yes&ymv=0&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b&Idx=11[/URL] : you have a little letter [URL]http://us.f826.mail.yahoo.com/ym/us/ShowLetter?box=Inbox&MsgId=5524_42439297_11488817_2025_12520_0_68741_57151_3807452067&bodyPart=2&YY=94113&y5beta=yes&ymv=0&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b&Idx=11[/URL] which takes you to the Arabic text
And the second quote is from sermon 147 and again you can read the Arabic text next to it following the same rules:

Sermon 147
The purpose of the … On the future ... [URL]http://us.f826.mail.yahoo.com/ym/us/ShowLetter?box=Inbox&MsgId=5524_42439297_11488817_2025_12520_0_68741_57151_3807452067&bodyPart=2&YY=94113&y5beta=yes&ymv=0&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b&Idx=11[/URL]

In this site again
Nahj al-Balaghah
we have the above as part of 146
on this site you can download the whole Book
Nahj al-Balaghah

also purchasable
Amazon.com: Peak of Eloquence Nahjul Balagha: Books: Ali-Ibne-Abu Talib

see also
http://www.sfu.ca/~cabs/scholar_Articles.html





Dear Khazeh,

I wonder if I might impose upon you for an original language citation for the two key quotations in an essay appearing in Prophecy Fulfilled website.

"
"O people! a time will come to you when Islam would be capsized as a pot is capsized will all its contents. O people, Allah has protected from that He might be hard on you but He has not spared you from being put on trial. Allah the Sublimest of all speakers has said: `Verily in this are signs and We do only try (the people).' [Qur'an 23:30]" -Imam Ali, Nahj'ul Balagha, Sermon 102, part 2



And
"Verily, a time will come upon you [Muslims] wherein nothing will be more concealed than the truth, nothing more manifest than falsehood, and nothing more than lies about God and His Apostle [Muhammad]. The people of that time will possess no commodity more difficult to sell than the Book when it is correctly recited, or one more in demand when its passages are misinterpreted. There will be throughout all lands nothing more detested than good deeds, or more renowned than evil ones. The reciters of the Qur'an will have cast it away, and those who memorize it will have deliberately erased it from their minds. The book and its disciples will, on that day, be ostracized and outcast, two friends together on the road, to whom no one will offer shelter. The Book and its disciples will be, in that age, among the people and yet neither among them nor with them. For error is incompatible with guidance. Even though the Book and its disciples might come together, the people would< br> agree to keep separate [Muslims and the sects of Islam will be disunited among themselves]. They would divert from the community -as if they were the leaders of the Qur'an rather than it being their leader. Nothing will remain of it among them save the name; they will know nothing of it save its calligraphy and script. Before, they had not made an example of the righteous by maiming them, or called their sincerity towards God a lie, or punished good deeds with the penalties for crimes. They who preceded you perished because they went on hoping for too long and their allotted terms expired. Then the Promised One [Mahdi] descended, by whom excuses are rejected and upon whom repentance has no effect, and with whom are the calamity and the affliction." -Ali ibn Abu Talib "Nahj'ul-Balagha [The Path of Eloquence]"

Aside from original language are either of these documents available in English?

Regards,Scott

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
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imranshaykh

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Again my friend Khazeh came through for me:

"O people! a time will come to you when Islam would be capsized as a pot is capsized will all its contents. O people, Allah has protected from that He might be hard on you but He has not spared you from being put on trial. Allah the Sublimest of all speakers has said: `Verily in this are signs and We do only try (the people).' [Qur'an 23:30]" -Imam Ali, Nahj'ul Balagha, Sermon 102, part 2

And

"Verily, a time will come upon you [Muslims] wherein nothing will be more concealed than the truth, nothing more manifest than falsehood, and nothing more than lies about God and His Apostle [Muhammad]. The people of that time will possess no commodity more difficult to sell than the Book when it is correctly recited, or one more in demand when its passages are misinterpreted. There will be throughout all lands nothing more detested than good deeds, or more renowned than evil ones. The reciters of the Qur'an will have cast it away, and those who memorize it will have deliberately erased it from their minds. The book and its disciples will, on that day, be ostracized and outcast, two friends together on the road, to whom no one will offer shelter. The Book and its disciples will be, in that age, among the people and yet neither among them nor with them. For error is incompatible with guidance. Even though the Book and its disciples might come together, the people would< br> agree to keep separate [Muslims and the sects of Islam will be disunited among themselves]. They would divert from the community -as if they were the leaders of the Qur'an rather than it being their leader. Nothing will remain of it among them save the name; they will know nothing of it save its calligraphy and script. Before, they had not made an example of the righteous by maiming them, or called their sincerity towards God a lie, or punished good deeds with the penalties for crimes. They who preceded you perished because they went on hoping for too long and their allotted terms expired. Then the Promised One [Mahdi] descended, by whom excuses are rejected and upon whom repentance has no effect, and with whom are the calamity and the affliction." -Ali ibn Abu Talib "Nahj'ul-Balagha [The Path of Eloquence]"

Regards,Scott

Dear Scott:

Yup, this sermon is there in Nahjal Balagha and while I had located it, I was keen to see whether you had located it as well.

The event being referred to is the Day of Judgement and not the arrival of the Mahdi. In each of the links you sent me, the line is translated as the "promised event" and not the "Promised one". Your translation has obviously come from a Bahai web site which is expected, but thought I would point it out to you. All the other translations of the sermon mention the event as the Promised event.

The sermon of Imam Ali is about the Day of Judgement. Just a few words before, he says that people before his time forgot their death till it (death) overtook them after which excuses will not be accepted, repentance will be denied and punishment and retribution will be inflicted.

Pay attention to the following verses of the Quran on this subject:

And warn people of the day when the chastisement shall come to them, then those who were unjust will say: O our Lord! respite us to a near term, (so) we shall respond to Thy call and follow the messengers. What! did you not swear before (that) there will be no passing away for you!
(Chapter 14, verse 44)

And when those who were followed shall renounce those who followed them and they see the chastisement and their ties are cut asunder. And those who followed shall say: Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be an intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire.
(Chapter 2, verses 166-167)

And warn them of the day that draws near, when hearts shall rise up to their throats, grieving inwardly, the unjust shall not have any compassionate friend not any intercessor who should be obeyed.
(Chapter 40, verse 18)

=> implying that on the Day of Judgement, people will seek repentance and seek respite, but it will not be granted to them

I are however in agreement that towards the last days prior to the re-appearance of the Mahdi, Islam will be divided and will be in a state of deterioration. I have written an article on this myself which you can read on my web site.

I am most pleased that you raised the issue of Nahjal Balagha - it is indeed a vey comprehensive book and I would recommend all to read it to understand Islam better. However, you are yet to tell me whether you accept Nahjal Balagha in its entirety or only selectively.

Finally, I end with a quotation from Nahjal Balagha itself which echoes the same concept:

...the rope of death taking him to the narrow grave and fearful abode in order to show him his place of stay and the recompense of his acts. This goes on from generation to generation. Neither death stops from cutting them asunder nor do the survivors keep aloof from committing of sins.

They are emulating each other and proceeding in groups towards the final objective and the rendezvous of death, till when matters come to a close, the world dies and resurrection draws near. Allah[2] would take them out from the corners of the graves, the nests of birds. the dens of beasts and the centres of death. They hasten towards Him command and run towards the place fixed for their final return group by group, quiet, standing and arrayed in rows. They will be within Allah's sight and will hear every one who would call them.

They would be having the dress of helplessness and covering of submission and indignity. (At this time) contrivances would disappear, desires would be cut, hearts would sink quietly, voices would be curbed down, sweat would choke the throat, fear would increase and ears would resound with the thundering voice of the announcer calling towards the final judgement, award of recompense, striking of punishment and paying of reward.

People have been created as a proof of (His) power, have been brought up with authority, they are made to die through pangs, and placed in graves where they turn into crumbs. Then they would be resurrected one by one, awarded their recompense and would have to account for their actions, each one separately. They had been allowed time to seek deliverance, had been shown the right path and had been allowed to live and seek favours, the darkness of doubts had been removed, and they had been let free in this period of life as a training place in order to make preparation for the race on the Day of Judgement, to search for the objective with thoughtfulness, to get time necessary to secure benefits and provide for the next place of stay.
(Nahjal Balagha, sermon 83)

Regards
Imran
 

Popeyesays

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<The sermon of Imam Ali is about the Day of Judgement. Just a few words before, he says that people before his time forgot their death till it (death) overtook them after which excuses will not be accepted, repentance will be denied and punishment and retribution will be inflicted.>

Absolutely, it is not I who misunderstands the nature of 'Judgement Day', Imran. It is you.

"THE Day of Resurrection is a day on which the sun riseth and setteth like unto any other day. How oft hath the Day of Resurrection dawned, and the people of the land where it occurred did not learn of the event. Had they heard, they would not have believed, and thus they were not told!
When the Apostle of God [Muhammad] appeared, He did not announce unto the unbelievers that the Resurrection had come, for they could not bear the news. That Day is indeed an infinitely mighty Day, for in it the Divine Tree proclaimeth from eternity unto eternity, 'Verily, I am God. No God is there but Me'. Yet those who are veiled believe that He is one like unto them, and they refuse even to call Him a believer, although such a title in the realm of His heavenly Kingdom is conferred everlastingly upon the most insignificant follower of His previous Dispensation. Thus, had the people in the days of the Apostle of God regarded Him at least as a believer of their time how would they have debarred Him, for seven years while He was in the mountain, from access to His Holy House [Ka'bah]? Likewise in this Dispensation of the Point of the Bayan, if the people had not refused to concede the name believer unto Him, how could they have incarcerated Him on this mountain, without realizing that the quintessence of belief oweth its existence to a word from Him? Their hearts are deprived of the power of true insight, and thus they cannot see, while those endowed with the eyes of the spirit circle like moths round the Light of Truth until they are consumed. It is for this reason that the Day of Resurrection is said to be the greatest of all days, yet it is like unto any other day." VIII, 9.
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 78)
 

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Judaism and Christianity are older monotheistic religions then Islam, so them 2 religions have had time to adapt to new times. I'm sure going back 1500 years ago Christians would have been practising a different version of Christianity one that is not regarded well today. Judaism and Christianity have had plenty of times to adapt and refine there revolutionary monotheistic religions to new times. Baha’ism came out of the heart of Islam and mutation of ideology not found in any of the 3. Progressive revelation.
 

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<The sermon of Imam Ali is about the Day of Judgement. Just a few words before, he says that people before his time forgot their death till it (death) overtook them after which excuses will not be accepted, repentance will be denied and punishment and retribution will be inflicted.>

Absolutely, it is not I who misunderstands the nature of 'Judgement Day', Imran. It is you.

"THE Day of Resurrection is a day on which the sun riseth and setteth like unto any other day. How oft hath the Day of Resurrection dawned, and the people of the land where it occurred did not learn of the event. Had they heard, they would not have believed, and thus they were not told!
When the Apostle of God [Muhammad] appeared, He did not announce unto the unbelievers that the Resurrection had come, for they could not bear the news. That Day is indeed an infinitely mighty Day, for in it the Divine Tree proclaimeth from eternity unto eternity, 'Verily, I am God. No God is there but Me'. Yet those who are veiled believe that He is one like unto them, and they refuse even to call Him a believer, although such a title in the realm of His heavenly Kingdom is conferred everlastingly upon the most insignificant follower of His previous Dispensation. Thus, had the people in the days of the Apostle of God regarded Him at least as a believer of their time how would they have debarred Him, for seven years while He was in the mountain, from access to His Holy House [Ka'bah]? Likewise in this Dispensation of the Point of the Bayan, if the people had not refused to concede the name believer unto Him, how could they have incarcerated Him on this mountain, without realizing that the quintessence of belief oweth its existence to a word from Him? Their hearts are deprived of the power of true insight, and thus they cannot see, while those endowed with the eyes of the spirit circle like moths round the Light of Truth until they are consumed. It is for this reason that the Day of Resurrection is said to be the greatest of all days, yet it is like unto any other day." VIII, 9.
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 78)

Dear Scott:

I dont understand what the Holy Prophet and the Imams said? So be it.

The Day of Judgement is probably the most discussed element in Islam after the Unity of Allah. Allah informs us that the purpose of sending prophets was to warn them of divine retribution and give them the glad tidings of divine rewards.

What I have presented to you is only a teaser of the verses and the traditions about Qiyamat. Inshallah, I will write a complete section on this as well. If this age is the Day of Judgement, then where is the fire? Where are the reards for those who followed the Bab and where is the punishment for those who denounced him? If at all I see the opposite where the Bahais have complained of suffering only and nothing else. The Day of Judgement is one when none shall be wronged - where is that Day?

Just a friendly reminder -

And when those who were followed shall renounce those who followed them and they see the chastisement and their ties are cut asunder. And those who followed shall say: Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be an intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire.
(Chapter 2, verses 166-167)

So many people have passed in the last 200 years - where is the regret? where is the fire?

And those who do an atom of good shall see it and those who do an atom of evil shall see it?
(Chapter of Zilzal, verses 7-8)

Where am I or you seeing what good / evil deeds we have done. If at all, in our normal lives, we forget our actions and dont even remember them.

If this is Qiyamat - so be it. It is not one to fear. Half our lives have passed in this Qiyamat and the other half will pass as well. The Islamic Day of Judgement is one to be feared and hoped for - for it is promised to be everlasting (I am not saying so, the Quran says that).

Regards,
 

imranshaykh

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Judaism and Christianity are older monotheistic religions then Islam, so them 2 religions have had time to adapt to new times. I'm sure going back 1500 years ago Christians would have been practising a different version of Christianity one that is not regarded well today. Judaism and Christianity have had plenty of times to adapt and refine there revolutionary monotheistic religions to new times. Baha’ism came out of the heart of Islam and mutation of ideology not found in any of the 3. Progressive revelation.

Can you give me a single example prior to the Bahai Faith where there was a volte face - I mean, any element of religion was highly condemned earler and was then recommended.

For example, music - highly condemned in Islam, but highly recommended in Bahai Faith

unveiling of women - highly condemned in Islam, but highly recommended in the Bahai Faith.

Please note, any element which was earlier FORBIDDEN and now ENCOURAGED.

Regards
 

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Can you give me a single example prior to the Bahai Faith where there was a volte face - I mean, any element of religion was highly condemned earler and was then recommended.

For example, music - highly condemned in Islam, but highly recommended in Bahai Faith

unveiling of women - highly condemned in Islam, but highly recommended in the Bahai Faith.

Please note, any element which was earlier FORBIDDEN and now ENCOURAGED.

Regards

Wine was not forbidden by Jesus or Moses, yet it is by Muhammad. And the evidence is that wine was prohibited gradually over time. That's an about face.

Music is encouraged by Christianity, yet you contend it is condemned in Islam (I do not agree, of course), that's an about face. Music was not condemned by Moses, and was practiced as part of the Revelation of the Psalms by David.

Jesus took away the restriction of unclean substances. Muhammad placed them back, and Baha`u'llah took them away again.

There are lots more examples if your eyes are open.

Regards,
Scott
 

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Dear Scott:

I dont understand what the Holy Prophet and the Imams said? So be it.

The Day of Judgement is probably the most discussed element in Islam after the Unity of Allah. Allah informs us that the purpose of sending prophets was to warn them of divine retribution and give them the glad tidings of divine rewards.

What I have presented to you is only a teaser of the verses and the traditions about Qiyamat. Inshallah, I will write a complete section on this as well. If this age is the Day of Judgement, then where is the fire? Where are the reards for those who followed the Bab and where is the punishment for those who denounced him? If at all I see the opposite where the Bahais have complained of suffering only and nothing else. The Day of Judgement is one when none shall be wronged - where is that Day?

I'll answer this with the words of the Bab:
"WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy 78 gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God's creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.
Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)
 

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Wine was not forbidden by Jesus or Moses, yet it is by Muhammad. And the evidence is that wine was prohibited gradually over time. That's an about face.

Music is encouraged by Christianity, yet you contend it is condemned in Islam (I do not agree, of course), that's an about face. Music was not condemned by Moses, and was practiced as part of the Revelation of the Psalms by David.

Jesus took away the restriction of unclean substances. Muhammad placed them back, and Baha`u'llah took them away again.

There are lots more examples if your eyes are open.

Regards,
Scott

Nope. The Prophet told us that that music and wine were innovations by the people. Did not come from the prophets. I can give you traditions on this, but again, you will call them superstitions. Incidentally, music was condemned since the time of adam.

Regards,
 

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Nope. The Prophet told us that that music and wine were innovations by the people. Did not come from the prophets. I can give you traditions on this, but again, you will call them superstitions. Incidentally, music was condemned since the time of adam.

Regards,

The Tanakh records differently:
"1 15,16 And David spoke to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren the singers, with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding aloud and lifting up the voice with joy." {P}
(Kesuvim (Writings), Divrei HaYomim (Chronicles))

"2 5,11 And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place -- for all the priests that were present had sanctified themselves, and did not keep their courses; 2 5,12 also the Levites who were the singers, all of them, even Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun, and their sons and their brethren, arrayed in fine linen, with cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them a hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets -- 2 5,13 it came even to pass, when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the LORD: 'for He is good, for His mercy endureth for ever'; that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD, 2 5,14 so that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud; for the glory of the LORD filled the house of God." {P}
(Kesuvim (Writings), Divrei HaYomim (Chronicles))

"2 7,6 And the priests stood, according to their offices; the Levites also with instruments of music of the LORD, which David the king had made, to give thanks unto the LORD, for His mercy endureth for ever, with the praises of David by their hand; and the priests sounded trumpets over against them; and all Israel stood."
(Kesuvim (Writings), Divrei HaYomim (Chronicles))

"2 23,12 And when Athaliah heard the noise of the people running and praising the king, she came to the people into the house of the LORD; 2 23,13 and she looked, and, behold, the king stood on his platform at the entrance, and the captains and the trumpets by the king; and all the people of the land rejoiced, and blew with trumpets; the singers also [played] on instruments of music, and led the singing of praise."
(Kesuvim (Writings), Divrei HaYomim (Chronicles))

"2 34,10 And they delivered it into the hand of the workmen that had the oversight of the house of the LORD; and the workmen that wrought in the house of the LORD gave it to mend and repair the house; 2 34,11 even to the carpenters and to the builders gave they it, to buy hewn stone, and timber for couplings, and to make beams for the houses which the kings of Judah had destroyed. {S} 2 34,12 And the men did the work faithfully; and the overseers of them were Jahath and Obadiah, the Levites, of the sons of Merari; and Zechariah and Meshullam, of the sons of the Kohathites, to preside over it; and other of the Levites, all that had skill with instruments of music."
(Kesuvim (Writings), Divrei HaYomim (Chronicles))

"5,14 The elders have ceased from the gate, the young men from their music. 5,15 The joy of our heart is ceased; our dance is turned into mourning. 5,16 The crown is fallen from our head; woe unto us! for we have sinned. 5,17 For this our heart is faint, for these things our eyes are dim; 5,18 For the mountain of Zion, which is desolate, the foxes walk upon it. "{P}
(Kesuvim (Writings), Eichah (Lamentations))

"4,1 For the Leader; with string-music. A Psalm of David.
4,2 Answer me when I call, O God of my righteousness, Thou who didst set me free when I was in distress; be gracious unto me, and hear my prayer.
4,3 O ye sons of men, how long shall my glory be put to shame, in that ye love vanity, and seek after falsehood? Selah
4,4 But know that the LORD hath set apart the godly man as His own; the LORD will hear when I call unto Him.
4,5 Tremble, and sin not; commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah
4,6 Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, and put your trust in the LORD.
4,7 Many there are that say: 'Oh that we could see some good!' LORD, lift Thou up the light of Thy countenance upon us.
4,8 Thou hast put gladness in my heart, more than when their corn and their wine increase.
4,9 In peace will I both lay me down and sleep; for Thou, LORD, makest me dwell alone in safety."
(Kesuvim (Writings), Tehillim (Psalms))

"54,1 For the Leader; with string-music. Maschil of David:
54,2 when the Ziphites came and said to Saul: 'Doth not David hide himself with us?'
54,3 O God, save me by Thy name, and right me by Thy might.
54,4 O God, hear my prayer; give ear to the words of my mouth.
54,5 For strangers are risen up against me, and violent men have sought after my soul; {N}
they have not set God before them. Selah
54,6 Behold, God is my helper; the Lord is for me as the upholder of my soul.
54,7 He will requite the evil unto them that lie in wait for me; destroy Thou them in Thy truth.
54,8 With a freewill-offering will I sacrifice unto Thee; I will give thanks unto Thy name, O LORD, for it is good.
54,9 For He hath delivered me out of all trouble; and mine eye hath gazed upon mine enemies." {P}
(Kesuvim (Writings), Tehillim (Psalms))

"3,18 Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will exult in the God of my salvation. 3,19 God, the Lord, is my strength, and He maketh my feet like hinds' feet, and He maketh me to walk upon my high places. For the Leader. With my string-music."
(Nev'im (Prophets), Chabakkuk (Habakkuk))

"I wish, therefore, to propose a test whereby it may be seen when these delights of the senses aforementioned are profitable and when they are not. And it is that, whensoever a person hears music and other things, and sees pleasant things, and is conscious of sweet perfumes, or tastes things that are delicious, or feels soft touches, if his thought and the affection of his will are at once centred upon God and if that thought of God gives him more pleasure than the movement of sense which causes it, and save for that he finds no pleasure in the said movement, this is a sign that he is receiving benefit therefrom, and that this thing of sense is a help to his spirit. In this way such things may be used, for then such things of sense subserve the end for which God created and gave them, which is that He should be the better loved and known because of them. And it must be known, furthermore, that one upon whom these things of sense cause the pure spiritual effect which I describe has no desire for them, and makes hardly any account of them, though they cause him great pleasure when they are offered to him, because of the pleasure which, as I have said, they cause him in God. He is not, however, solicitous for them, and when they are offered to him, as I say, his will passes from them at once and he abandons it to God and sets it upon Him."
(St. John of the Cross, Ascent of Mount Carmel)

"The song of the spheres in their revolutions
Is what men sing with lute and voice.
The faithful hold that the sweet influences of heaven
Can make even harsh voices melodious.
As we are all members of Adam,
We have heard these melodies in Paradise;
Though earth and water have cast their veil upon us,
We retain faint reminiscences of those heavenly songs.
But while we are thus shrouded by gross earthly veils,
How can the tones of the dancing spheres reach us? 11
Hence it is that listening to music is lovers' food,
Because it recalls to them their primal union with God.
The inward feelings of the mind acquire strength,
Nay, are shown outwardly, under influence of music.
The fire of love burns hotter under stimulus of music,"
(Mathnavi of Rumi (E.H. Whinfield tr), The Masnavi Vol 4)

Regards,
Scott
 

Postmaster

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400 years into Christianity after the split from Judaism we refused to be circumcised and changed our holy day from Saturday to Sunday. And Muslims from Sunday to Friday. These are examples of religion changing to suit the people. There is a Christian tradition of a saint that would hear heavenly music as she prayed, she was a kings daughter of a Pagan and her father sent 100 theologians to convert her back, the storys goes that she ironcially convinced all the theologians to convert Christianity.
 

BruceDLimber

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The Prophet told us that that music and wine were innovations by the people.

You're quibbling.

Music is eminently acceptable before God, as the Baha'i scriptures strongly affirm!

And when I asked you where in the Qur'an it said Muhammad had opposed music, you were unable to produce a citation. So the condemnation of music is clearly a mere human addition to Islam and thus invalid.

Q. E. D..

Peace,

Bruce
 

Popeyesays

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400 years into Christianity after the split from Judaism we refused to be circumcised and changed our holy day from Saturday to Sunday. And Muslims from Sunday to Friday. These are examples of religion changing to suit the people. There is a Christian tradition of a saint that would hear heavenly music as she prayed, she was a kings daughter of a Pagan and her father sent 100 theologians to convert her back, the storys goes that she ironcially convinced all the theologians to convert Christianity.

The word 'Bahaism' is much like calling Christianity "Christianologyism".

Regards,
Scott
 

arthra

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"Bahaism" was a name given the Baha'i Faith by Western scholars about a hundred years ago.. You still sometimes see it in classifications of texts.

Today most refer to it as "Baha'i Faith".

Recall that many referred to Islam as Mohammadanism until not so long ago.

- Art
 
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