Islam in the time of the advent of the Mahdi

Muslimwoman

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Dear Muslim Woman,

Welcome to the Baha`i board. If you have questions please ask them. If you have a polite interjection, please make it. If you have an issue, please raise it.

It is hard to discuss the Baha`i Faith without referring to Islam, just as it is hard to discuss Christianity without discussing Judaism.

Imran does not seem to live here anymore.

as salaam aleykum Scott

My deepest apologies, what an awful way to introduce myself to the Baha'i board. I confess I was a little irked at a Muslim brothers attitude on your faiths board and it got the better of me. :eek: What I should have said to you is that I would not agree necessarliy with your opinions, however I would defend your right to your opinions and interpretations, even though I would wish to discuss them with you and offer my opinions. I hope you will accept my apology.

Salaam
 

Muslimwoman

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NONSENSE!

I refer you to both Psalm 96 and Psalm 98 in the Jewish scriptures, both of which begin,

"O sing unto the Lord a new song!"

Best,

Bruce

as salaam aleykum Bruce

Neither is music universally condemned in Islam (see my above post for reference). :) Alhamdolillah.

Salaam
 

Popeyesays

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as salaam aleykum Scott

My deepest apologies, what an awful way to introduce myself to the Baha'i board. I confess I was a little irked at a Muslim brothers attitude on your faiths board and it got the better of me. :eek: What I should have said to you is that I would not agree necessarliy with your opinions, however I would defend your right to your opinions and interpretations, even though I would wish to discuss them with you and offer my opinions. I hope you will accept my apology.

Salaam

You are most hearilty welcome, dear lady. It is not necessary for you to agree with me on everything for us to be fellow creatures of God and enjoy each other's company. I only suggested not responding to Imran because he was twisting our own statements on another website to make his anti-Baha`i website arguments better. Of course, he was not really making those arguments better because his ears were never open to hear any dissenting opinion.

We all stand in servitude to God, and should celebrate that desire to serve more than we argue about the nuts and bolts of proper service.

Peace to you and yours, God is most Glorious,

Scott
 

Muslimwoman

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You are most hearilty welcome, dear lady. It is not necessary for you to agree with me on everything for us to be fellow creatures of God and enjoy each other's company. I only suggested not responding to Imran because he was twisting our own statements on another website to make his anti-Baha`i website arguments better. Of course, he was not really making those arguments better because his ears were never open to hear any dissenting opinion.

We all stand in servitude to God, and should celebrate that desire to serve more than we argue about the nuts and bolts of proper service.

Peace to you and yours, God is most Glorious,

Scott

as salaam aleykum Scott & Bruce

Thankyou for your kind response. I replied to Imran in the hope that he would try to make his arguments with a fellow Muslim, I believe if you are going to discuss your faith you are obliged to do so respectfully and factually. I am confident in my love and servitude of Allah to accept all non-extreme faiths and their followers.

I will confess that until joining this forum I had not even heard of the Baha'i faith or their beliefs. I have been reading a little bit on websites but am still trying to get my head around it, so please bear with me if I ask what seem a silly question. Also please forgive me if I ever say anything that may be offensive to a Baha'i follower, it will be unintentional and due to my lack of knowledge of your faith.

My first question is regarding the Baha'u'llah. The Quran states at verse 33:40 "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things." This translation is from Yusufali (Pickthall also refers to the Seal) but Shakir translates this verse as "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things". I understand that the Baha'u'llah said he was a new Prophet, so do followers of the Baha'i faith reject this verse of the Quran or interpret it differently?

Salaam
 

Postmaster

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There was a prophet before Islam that claimed to be the seal of the prophets, Mani from the Manichaeism faith around 1700 -1800 years ago. Who was also a Persian noble, who believed all religons were from the same source and differences were due to different socities. This faith disapeared which had temples from Western Europe to the Far East, it seems Islam took influence off it too.

I've read of ways Baha'is get round this not too clear to discuss it. But be sure that others in the past have used the term seal of the prophets before Islam.
 

Muslimwoman

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There was a prophet before Islam that claimed to be the seal of the prophets, Mani from the Manichaeism faith. Who was also a Persian noble, who believed all religons were from the same source and the only difference was due to different socities around 1700 years ago. After this faith died which had temples from Western Europe to the Far East, it seems Islam took influence off it too. I've read of afew ways Baha'i get round this, one that Mohammed was a Nabis prophet, I'm not quite sure about this with there being 1.3 billion followers of Islam, can hardly say he is a small prophet.

You mean he was a post-impressionist french artist? :D

Or the last King of Sparta? :D

Oh I see from the Hebrew word for Prophet. Certainly I wouldn't consider the Prophet Mohammad to be a small Prophet (gosh that sounds like it comes from the Terry Pratchett book Small gods - very funny).

Someone said on this forum that the Baha'i faith believe in the Quran, so how could they not accept the Prophet Mohammad?
 

Postmaster

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I edited my last post because I was working on a faded memory and was worried of looking stupid now you quoted it. lol

Baha'is believe in the Quran and the Bible and every other major world faith, but they interpret in there own way. It's like each religion holds a piece to a puzzle which is put together to make sense. If you think about it, it's the only way it can positively take prejudice out of every religion, because each religion claims to be the only way, hence the term seal of the prophets.
 

Muslimwoman

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I edited my last post because I was working on a faded memory and was worried of looking stupid now you quoted it. lol

Baha'is believe in the Quran and the Bible and every other major world faith, but they interpret in there own way. It's like each religion holds a piece to a puzzle which is put together to make sense. If you think about it, it's the only way it can positively take prejudice out of every religion, because each religion claims to be the only way, hence the term seal of the prophets.

Sorry Postmaster, couldn't resist. :D

Yes makes sense but does it then make all of us wrong? The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) taught us that the Jewish and Christian faiths were also people of the book so he accepted that Islam is not the one true religion but a part of the thread of religion (sorry didnt put that very well, hope you understand what I am trying to say).

Salaam
 

arthra

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Baha'is do accept Qur'an as an authentic reporsitory of the Word of God and the BIble is viewed as being inspired... We're unsure though how authentic some of the more ancient religions actually reflected the revelation from their respective Prophets and Manifestations.

The Baha'is accept that Prophet Muhammad was as the Qur'anic verse revealed "Seal of the Prophets". Our explanation may differ however from the standard one accepted by most Muslims. We believe that the term "seal of the Prophets" means the Dispensation of Prophet Muhammad is the "Seal of the Age of Prophecy" and that this age ended in 1260 AH/1844 AD with the beginning of the AGe of Fulfillment of prophecy.

Others have suggested that the term Seal of the Prophets applied to Nabiyim or minor prophets receiving inspiration and not to Rasuli or Messengers of God that brought new dispensations, Holy Books and new ordinances, with authority to abrogate some of the previous dispensations.

An essay on this topic can be found at:

Baha'u'llah: The Great Announcement of the Qur'an

My own personal recommendation would be that we confine ourselves to Baha'i issues rather that argue about the place of music in Islam, that should be a topic for the Islamic board not the Baha'i board.

- Art
 

Postmaster

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It's hard to believe that Islam will remain valid today as it will be in another 1000 years time. Baha'is believe that God does not leave people without a divine messenger at every stage of human civilisation, to every people. They also believe there are more to come. Baha'is believe that Bahaullah ushered in a new age with renewed moral concepts and views mainly equality of mankind and equality of religion. Mankind failed to recognise these virtues and resulted in the world wars, over 30 million people died which many Baha'is believe was the prophesied Armageddon and with Christian prophecy the return of Christ was due right after or during Armageddon.
 

Postmaster

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Artha I have a question regarding the soul in the Baha'i faith. Is the soul regarded as connected to the body but is external rather then internal to the body, in other words I do not move around with my soul but it is somewhere else?
 

Postmaster

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Just pointing out my figure of 30 million is wrong, 60 million died as a result of world 2 alone.

It's not just Islam that is strict and believes the only right way is through its own teachings, probably all religions.

BUDDHISM, Dhammapada 20:274
This is the path. There is no other that leads to vision.

CHRISTIANITY, John 14:6
I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the
Father except through Me.
 

BruceDLimber

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Hi again! :)

I will confess that until joining this forum I had not even heard of the Baha'i faith or their beliefs.

No problem: your questions are always most welcome! :)

And at the end of this message, I'll supply you with a bunch of websites that I hope you'll find helpful!

Muslimwoman said:
My first question is regarding the Baha'u'llah. The Quran states at verse 33:40 "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things." This translation is from Yusufali (Pickthall also refers to the Seal) but Shakir translates this verse as "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things". I understand that the Baha'u'llah said he was a new Prophet, so do followers of the Baha'i faith reject this verse of the Quran or interpret it differently?

I'll expand a bit on what Art said about this, if I may.

There are several different explanations of the verse in the Qur’an saying Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets (a statement we Baha’is accept):

First off, there is a sense in which EVERY Divine Messenger is the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, and the Seal!

More specifically, there are multiple Arabic words that all translate into English as "prophet."

One of these is "nabi," which refers to a minor prophet such as Jeremiah or Amos.

Another is Ras'ul, which means a major, religion-founding Divine Messenger like Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha'u'llah (our Founder). (And yes, Muhammad was a major--not a minor--Prophet.)

And the word actually used in the Qur'an is "nabi," meaning Muhammad was the Seal of the minor prophets! This says nothing whatever about the great Divine Messengers.

Muhammad is also the Seal in the sense that He was the last Messenger during the Prophetic Age, which began with Adam and ended with Him. The Bab then closed out that Age and opened the Age of Fulfillment, of which Baha'u'llah is the first major Messenger.

Finally, there is a sense in which the word commonly translated as "seal" also means "ornament," so that this verse of the Qur'an may simply be saying that Muhammad is the Ornament of the prophets! (Nothing whatever about any sort of finish.)


OK. Here's the list of sites I promised you:

For general information about the Baha’i Faith, please visit:

www.bahai.org or www.usbnc.org or www.bahai.us
or www.info.bahai.org

To see our scriptures and related materials, including our Peace Statement, Prosperity Statement, Race Unity Statement, and Destiny of America Statement:
· www.ibiblio.org/Bahai (This site has includes a search engine.)
· www.bahai-library.org (Click "Baha'i Writings" for our scriptures.)
· www.reference.bahai.org (This site is multi-lingual.)
· www.bahaistudy.org (This also has videos and talking books.)

To use OCEAN, an online collection of the scriptures of many religions, with a searchable concordance:

www.BahaiResearch.com

There's an excellent group of informal discussion areas about the Baha'i Faith at:

www.planetbahai.org (click "Forums").

For information on how the Baha'i Faith has fulfilled prophecies:

http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled

To see an online video of the eight Baha'i temples (one per continent) around the world, including the still-under-construction Chile temple:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2FQAQBI0fg

To enjoy Baha’i-oriented music:

www.RadioNur.com

To download and view other Baha'i videos:

http://www.us.bahai.org/media/index.html

You may often find "Baha'i Faith" listings in the White Pages of your phone book.

In the USA, you can also phone 1-800-22-UNITE for free information and literature, and—if you like—to find out where the nearest Baha'is are.

Do keep the questions coming! :)

And if you'd like a more detailed overview of the Baha'i Faith, please send me a private message with your email address, and I'll be happy to send it to you!

Many regards, and I wish you good hunting!

Best,

Bruce
 

BruceDLimber

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I have a question regarding the soul in the Baha'i faith. Is the soul regarded as connected to the body but is external rather then internal to the body; in other words I do not move around with my soul but it is somewhere else?

Hi again, Postmaster!

If I may jump in here, we Baha'is view the soul as completely non-physical. As such, during this life it has a spiritual--but not a physical--connection with the body, and this connection ends at death (when the soul continues on to the Next Life).

(Further questions are of course welcome!)

Best, :)

Bruce
 

BruceDLimber

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Hi!

It's not just Islam that is strict and believes the only right way is through its own teachings, probably all religions.

Very true!

In fact, the two you quoted are just part of a longer list.

Pretty much ALL the great religions say this, and IOV this doesn't mean that the others are wrong, but rather that in each Age there is a new, special path to God!

Here are the quotes:

THE ONLY WAY

1. “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
Christianity, John 14:6


2. “This is the path. There is no other that leads to vision.”
Buddhism, Dhammapada 20:274

3. “Whoso seeks guidance elsewhere, God will lead him astray.”
Islam, Imam ‘Ali Hadith


4. “He that hath Me not is bereft of all things. Turn ye away from all that is on earth and seek none else but Me.”
Baha’i, Tablets of ‘Abdu’l-Baha, p. 169


5. “Abandoning all duties, come to Me alone for shelter.”
Hinduism, Bhagavad Gita 18:66


6. “There is only one religious way. This one way is that of good thoughts, good words, and good deeds, the way of Heaven, of light and of purity, of the infinite Creator.”
Zoroastrianism, Gathas, Yasna 45:5 and 51:2


Regards, ;-)

Bruce
 

arthra

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Summary of Baha'i beliefs, Armageddon and the Soul:

Postmaster wrote:

Baha'is believe that God does not leave people without a divine messenger at every stage of human civilisation, to every people. They also believe there are more to come. Baha'is believe that Bahaullah ushered in a new age with renewed moral concepts and views mainly equality of mankind and equality of religion. Mankind failed to recognise these virtues and resulted in the world wars, over 30 million people died which many Baha'is believe was the prophesied Armageddon and with Christian prophecy the return of Christ was due right after or during Armageddon.

...................................................

My comment:

Over all that's a pretty good summary of Baha'i beliefs I think...

Now about Armageddon, you could say that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha warned the rulers of the world about war and Abdul-Baha was more specific I think about the world wars in the twentieth century. For an interesting article on Armageddon there's an essay by Stephen Lambden that might interest you:

Catastrophe, Armageddon and Millennium: some aspects of the Bábí-Baha'i exegesis of apocalyptic symbolism



.....................................................................

My good friend Postmaster wrote:

Artha I have a question regarding the soul in the Baha'i faith. Is the soul regarded as connected to the body but is external rather then internal to the body, in other words I do not move around with my soul but it is somewhere else?

.......................................

My understanding is that in the Baha'i view the soul doesn't "leave" the body nor is it "incarnated" somehow into the body... The soul is an emanation in our belief from the Divine and eventually will progress to the presence of God.

Some quotes from the Baha'i Writings:

`As to the soul', writes Bahá'u'lláh, `... it is sent forth by the Word of God'; and `Abdu'l-Bahá says that the soul is `a spirit with which God has endowed him [man] at creation'; it is `... a depository, emanating from the light of the Ancient Entity -- God', `It is a divine bounty. It is the effulgence of the Sun of Reality', suggesting that the soul is a spiritual entity created by God through emanation.
 

Muslimwoman

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Baha'is do accept Qur'an as an authentic reporsitory of the Word of God and the BIble is viewed as being inspired... We're unsure though how authentic some of the more ancient religions actually reflected the revelation from their respective Prophets and Manifestations.

The Baha'is accept that Prophet Muhammad was as the Qur'anic verse revealed "Seal of the Prophets". Our explanation may differ however from the standard one accepted by most Muslims. We believe that the term "seal of the Prophets" means the Dispensation of Prophet Muhammad is the "Seal of the Age of Prophecy" and that this age ended in 1260 AH/1844 AD with the beginning of the AGe of Fulfillment of prophecy.

Others have suggested that the term Seal of the Prophets applied to Nabiyim or minor prophets receiving inspiration and not to Rasuli or Messengers of God that brought new dispensations, Holy Books and new ordinances, with authority to abrogate some of the previous dispensations.

An essay on this topic can be found at:

Baha'u'llah: The Great Announcement of the Qur'an

My own personal recommendation would be that we confine ourselves to Baha'i issues rather that argue about the place of music in Islam, that should be a topic for the Islamic board not the Baha'i board.

- Art

Thankyou Art, most enlightening.

I was very surprised how much of it referred to the traditions of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), as I am rather sceptical about the authenticity of a number of them.

So may I ask which prophesy is being fullfilled since 1260 AH?

Salaam
 

Muslimwoman

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And the word actually used in the Qur'an is "nabi," meaning Muhammad was the Seal of the minor prophets! This says nothing whatever about the great Divine Messengers.


My Arabic is rather basic so whilst I do not doubt your translation I shall ask my husband about this, as he is Arabic so one would hope he would know. :D That is to say I shall ask about the verses referring to the Seal. Interesting information though. Thank you.
http://www.us.bahai.org/media/index.html
You may often find "Baha'i Faith" listings in the White Pages of your phone book.


I don't imagine I will be able to get any information on the Baha'i faith here in Egypt but I am sure you can teach me a lot. I shall work my way through the sites you have given me and will doubt have a billion questions.


Thank you so much for taking the time to reply and get all those sites for me to read. I shall work through them before I ask for any more info or I may fuse my brain. There is just so much to learn on this forum.

Salaam
 

Muslimwoman

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Sorry just remembered a quick question. Your conversation about each religion believing they are the right way, Bruce I believe you quoted a hadith rather than the Quran. I have been taught that the Quran does not contain any such wording. Have I been taught incorrectly? I don't remember seeing such a verse and I don't rely on hadith so am very curious now.

Salaam
 
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