Islam in the time of the advent of the Mahdi

[Postmaster]

I see. But as a non Baha'i I feel comfortable calling it Bahaism, but will not if you feel like that.

Baha'i faith is a complimentary religion to me, I can't adopt Eastern rituals such as pointing towards the east to pray and other stuff which is Alien to me, I was raised by an intellectual Greek family proud of our European heretiage. But I do feel the theology in the Baha'i faith is important and worthy of me sharing to people.

 

[Seeker_of_truth]

I see. But as a non Baha'i I feel comfortable calling it Bahaism, but will not if you feel like that.

Baha'i faith is a complimentary religion to me, I can't adopt Eastern rituals such as pointing towards the east to pray and other stuff which is Alien to me, I was raised by an intellectual Greek family proud of our European heretiage. But I do feel the theology in the Baha'i faith is important and worthy of me sharing to people.

If i may point out, every great religion of the world has originated from the east, as well as it's rituals.

 

[arthra]

Who is facing east?

I see. But as a non Baha'i I feel comfortable calling it Bahaism, but will not if you feel like that.

Baha'i faith is a complimentary religion to me, I can't adopt Eastern rituals such as pointing towards the east to pray and other stuff which is Alien to me, I was raised by an intellectual Greek family proud of our European heretiage. But I do feel the theology in the Baha'i faith is important and worthy of me sharing to people.

I think over the past year or so Postmaster I've seen your interest in Baha'i Faith and applaud it. Sometimes you'll understand that people dislike labels other's attach to their faith. Shoghi Effendi advised that the proper name of our faith was Baha'i Faith not Bahaism or Babism or even Baha'i World Faith..simply Baha'i Faith.

Many churches are built "oriented" toward the east as sunrise...so one could probably make a case that Christians pray in an easterly direction I suppose..

Baha'i Houses of Worship are actually not oriented to any particular direction as there are nine sides and they are more circular facing various points of teh compass. Also unlike Mosques we do not have a place in our Houses of Worship that designate a Qiblah as each in their own privacy daily face the Qiblah for us which is Bahji in the Holy Land. So if you consider that most Baha'is live say in India they would be facing westerly.

I glad that you are proud of your intellectual history and proud of your Greek heritage... there is also much from Platonism that is a support to Christianity, Islam and Baha'u'llah refers to this in His Lawh-i-Hikmat.

Have a great day!

- Art

 

[Popeyesays]

If you feel better, go ahead. It's just that many who insist on calling the religion 'Bahaism' are antagonistic or demeaning by using a term they know is antiquated. On an AOL chatroom about the faith one detractor would not spell Bahai or Baha`u'llah correctly because he misspelled the words to demean the faith.

I do NOT think you do that, but it's an unpleasant reminder of those that do.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Postmaster]

Something off topic, but since were talking about Plato, did you know that an Iranian is looking for the lost island of Atlantis off the shores of Cyprus. He thinks he’s on to discovering the greatest missing piece in human history. The theory has it that Cyprus is all that’s left of Ancient Atlantis. If true I guess I can claim Atlantean ancestry haha.

The birth place of religion.

 

[Mick]

Something off topic, but since were talking about Plato, did you know that an Iranian is looking for the lost island of Atlantis off the shores of Cyprus. He thinks he’s on to discovering the greatest missing piece in human history. The theory has it that Cyprus is all that’s left of Ancient Atlantis. If true I guess I can claim Atlantean ancestry haha.

The birth place of religion.

Postmaster,

I'm happy for you.

Mick

 

[BruceDLimber]

And Scott, another unpleasant example of the same thing is someone I knew who insisted on saying "BA-high" instead of "ba-HIGH," presumably also as a put-down.

Fortunately, most folks don't stoop to that sort of thing.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[Postmaster]

Thank you Mick, thats what I want.

 

[Postmaster]

I suppose it is form of prejudice towards the Baha'i faith when someone miss-pronounces or refers to the faith other then the names chosen, when done with intent. Who cares though, leave them to it. Know point doing anything if it falls on def ears.

 

[imranshaykh]

You're quibbling.

Music is eminently acceptable before God, as the Baha'i scriptures strongly affirm!

And when I asked you where in the Qur'an it said Muhammad had opposed music, you were unable to produce a citation. So the condemnation of music is clearly a mere human addition to Islam and thus invalid.
Q. E. D..
Peace,
Bruce

You are obviously not reading my posts. I gave the verses and the traditions about music and it being forbidden as per the Holy Prophet of Islam and the Holy Imams.

If you want to find the exact word - music in Quran, it may not be available. But the traditions (in the same post) explain which words in the Quran are referring to music - by name.

Muslims pray namaz 5 times a day in a particular fashion and have been doing so for 1,400 years. Do you deny the concept of namaz and its form in Islam? I should think not. Now go back and tell me if you can find where it is written in Quran to recite 2 units in the morning, 4 for the noon, 4 for the afternoon, 3 units for dusk and 4 units for night prayers.

Bahais believe in Imam Ali being the rightful successor of the Prophet - Go and tell me where you can find the name of Imam Ali in the Quran.

Does it mean the Quran is silent about these issues? No. Quran claims that all knowledges are encompassed in it. Then where are the verses for the above? For these, one must refer to the "authorised" interpretators of the verses - the Holy Prophet and the Imams.

Hope I am clear.
Regards,

 

[Mick]

Bahais believe in Imam Ali being the rightful successor of the Prophet - Go and tell me where you can find the name of Imam Ali in the Quran.

How utterly ludicrous. How hair splitting. Imran, why don't you investigate the writings of Baha'u'llah. Why are you so set on this one topic. It must be difficult to get past your preconceived images of what will come. It is a shame, because you seem to be a heartfelt individual, looking for God/Allah and His mysteries. It is a shame that you have already determined you know all that there is to know.

Does it mean the Quran is silent about these issues? No. Quran claims that all knowledges are encompassed in it. Then where are the verses for the above? For these, one must refer to the "authorised" interpretators of the verses - the Holy Prophet and the Imams.

Hope I am clear.
Regards,

And the Quran does have all the knowledges to the time of it's writing. Are you suggesting that God, in His wisdom, gave us the Torah, the Gospels, and the Quran and then shut off any additional knowledge? Could it be possible that you have misread the intentions of God concerning the Quran and it being the "total" of all knowledge as the Christians mis-read the "Return of Christ" and what it meant and what to expect? This is interesting, because I am not a scholar, just a learner. I do not debate religion, but am willing to answer questions as well as ask them. I also am very interested in a persons spiritual journey.

Mick

 

[imranshaykh]

How utterly ludicrous. How hair splitting. Imran, why don't you investigate the writings of Baha'u'llah. Why are you so set on this one topic. It must be difficult to get past your preconceived images of what will come. It is a shame, because you seem to be a heartfelt individual, looking for God/Allah and His mysteries. It is a shame that you have already determined you know all that there is to know.

Why is it a ludicrious question? You very conveniently rejected my arguments about the concept of music in the Quran stating that it does not exist. Now when I turn back to you and ask you whether the name of Imam Ali is present in the Quran, you call it hair splitting?

The concept which I was trying to draw your attention towards is that it is not necessary that everything will be seen in the Quran as we see it. The Quran is much much deeper than we think. And that is why we are ordered to refer to the prophet and the Imams to understand it.

And the Quran does have all the knowledges to the time of it's writing. Are you suggesting that God, in His wisdom, gave us the Torah, the Gospels, and the Quran and then shut off any additional knowledge?
Mick

I leave that question to Allah to answer for it is Allah alone who revealed the Quran. Allah informed us that the Quran and the Prophet and the Imams will suffice the ummah till the day of judgement. If Allah says so, then so be it.

Regards,

 

[Popeyesays]

Judgement day was a day in Muharram, 1260 AH.

"He hath laid down the foundations of the lofty Citadel, He hath inaugurated the Cycle of Glory, He hath brought forth a new creation on this day that is clearly Judgement Day -- and still do the heedless stay fast in their drunken sleep.
The Bugle [1] hath sounded, the Trumpet [2] hath been blown, the Crier hath raised his call, and all upon the earth have swooned away -- but still do the dead, in the tombs of their bodies, sleep on.
[1 Qur'án 39:68; Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 133]
[2 Qur'án 74:8] 14
And the second clarion [1] hath sounded, there hath followed the second blast after the first,[2] and the dread woe hath come, and every nursing mother hath forgot the infant at her breast [3] -- yet still the people, confused and distracted, heed it not."
[1 Qur'án 39:68]
[2 Qur'án 79:6]
[3 Qur'án 22:2]
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 13)

"THE Day of Resurrection is a day on which the sun riseth and setteth like unto any other day. How oft hath the Day of Resurrection dawned, and the people of the land where it occurred did not learn of the event. Had they heard, they would not have believed, and thus they were not told!"
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 78)

So there is no internal consistency here, Imran. The faith acknowledges Judgement Day as the time when the Qur'an would be fulfilled and now it is the time of the Bayan and the Aqdas.

 

[Seeker_of_truth]

I leave that question to Allah to answer for it is Allah alone who revealed the Quran. Allah informed us that the Quran and the Prophet and the Imams will suffice the ummah till the day of judgement. If Allah says so, then so be it.

Regards,

I believe that is the point that we Baha'is are trying to get across, the Day of Judgement has happened, up until that point as you said " the Prophet and the Imams suffice".

 

[Muslimwoman]

You are obviously not reading my posts. I gave the verses and the traditions about music and it being forbidden as per the Holy Prophet of Islam and the Holy Imams.

If you want to find the exact word - music in Quran, it may not be available. But the traditions (in the same post) explain which words in the Quran are referring to music - by name.

Muslims pray namaz 5 times a day in a particular fashion and have been doing so for 1,400 years. Do you deny the concept of namaz and its form in Islam? I should think not. Now go back and tell me if you can find where it is written in Quran to recite 2 units in the morning, 4 for the noon, 4 for the afternoon, 3 units for dusk and 4 units for night prayers.

Bahais believe in Imam Ali being the rightful successor of the Prophet - Go and tell me where you can find the name of Imam Ali in the Quran.

Does it mean the Quran is silent about these issues? No. Quran claims that all knowledges are encompassed in it. Then where are the verses for the above? For these, one must refer to the "authorised" interpretators of the verses - the Holy Prophet and the Imams.

Hope I am clear.
Regards,

Scott, I would take issue with a number of your comments in this thread regarding Islam but shall refrain as this is not an Islamic board.


as salaam aleykum brother Imranshaykh,

I do not wish to hijack a thread in the Baha’i faith board but I would be grateful if you could clarify a couple of things you have posted here.

You are correct the Quran does not mention Ali bin Talib. Now could you please quote for me the verse that states Abu Bakr Siddiq will be the successor of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) or indeed any relevant verse regarding Abu Bakr?

Please can you also quote the verses of the Quran that refer to the Mahdi.

You state that music is forbidden in Islam, can you then explain the following:-

Mustafa Sabri - Entitled A topic of dispute in Islam - music
Beyan-ul-Haq, issue: 63, year: 2, vol: 3, 1910 (A journal which used to be issued by the Islamic Scholars Society)
Mustafa Sabri was one of the top Ottoman scholars in the 20th century. He served as a shaikhulislam (Highest religious authority) in the Ottoman State. He died in 1954 in Egypt.

Whether it is through natural/physiological means or instruments, or tunes, depending on the kind or the different ways, music may be forbidden or disliked or even allowed according to some Islamic religious edicts. However, it is also known that Islam avoids absolutely accepting or remaining indifferent to the issue of music. It is this latter fact, ie, a sort of position by Islam, of cautioning by not allowing music, or encouraging it without reservation. It is this position whose reason or essence we will be discussing.

He goes on to explain why he considers music to be a "useless activity" and speaks very badly about music but he does not at any time state it is forbidden.

Please never say of the Quran “it may not be available” (your comment re the word music) The Quran is very clear on what Allah forbids. It is not there, not a single verse that specifically forbids music.

Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of GOD without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution. Quran (31:6)

Please do not quote the verses and hadiths said to refer to the forbidding of music, I know them rather well, and this would certainly hijack the thread but please could you just comment on the above (I think we can agree that Beyan-ul-Haq can be relied upon as a knowledgeable Islamic reference).

From Ibn Hanbal; (I feel sure you recognise this as one of the 4 traditional schools)

Zayd Ibn Thabit (The Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu'aawiyah (more than 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu'aawiyah liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said. " the messenger of God ordered us NEVER to write anything of his hadith," (sorry tried to post the arabic here but it doesn't work but am sure you know how to look this up).


Salaam

 

[BruceDLimber]

The event being referred to is the Day of Judgement and not the arrival of the Mahdi.

Hi, Imran!

The Baha'i scriptures make it clear that the Day of Resurrection (aka the Judgement Day) refers to the time when a new Divine Messenger appears on earth, so IOV these events are in fact equivalent.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi again, Postmaster!

Baha’ism came out of the heart of Islam and mutation of ideology not found in any of the 3. Progressive revelation.

For the record, the correct term is "the Baha'i Faith."

"Baha'ism" is a malaprop.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings redux!

Can you give me a single example prior to the Bahai Faith where there was a volte face - I mean, any element of religion was highly condemned earler and was then recommended.

For example, music - highly condemned in Islam, but highly recommended in Bahai Faith

unveiling of women - highly condemned in Islam, but highly recommended in the Bahai Faith.

Please note, any element which was earlier FORBIDDEN and now ENCOURAGED.

While I wouldn't say "encouraged" as such, Jesus' abrogation of Jewish law (and also the Christian allowance of eating pork) are two clear examples!

Regards,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

[M]usic was condemned since the time of adam.

NONSENSE!

I refer you to both Psalm 96 and Psalm 98 in the Jewish scriptures, both of which begin,

"O sing unto the Lord a new song!"

Best,

Bruce

 

[Popeyesays]

Dear Muslim Woman,

Welcome to the Baha`i board. If you have questions please ask them. If you have a polite interjection, please make it. If you have an issue, please raise it.

It is hard to discuss the Baha`i Faith without referring to Islam, just as it is hard to discuss Christianity without discussing Judaism.

Imran does not seem to live here anymore.