How To Believe?

[China Cat Sunflower]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16 (KJV)

How does a person believe? What does belief entail? Can belief be founded on blind faith, or does one have to have something to go on first to believe? Can I just say, "I believe" without actually believing? Is that how it's supposed to work?

I can't find enough evidence to believe. I tried to just believe without the evidence, but it didn't work. I can't just have faith without some kind of starter belief, and I can't find the evidence to justify it without starting from certain assumptions which can't be proven.

What is Jesus actually talking about? What is it to believe?

Chris

 

[Silas]

How does a person believe? What does belief entail? Can belief be founded on blind faith, or does one have to have something to go on first to believe? Can I just say, "I believe" without actually believing? Is that how it's supposed to work?

I can't find enough evidence to believe. I tried to just believe without the evidence, but it didn't work. I can't just have faith without some kind of starter belief, and I can't find the evidence to justify it without starting from certain assumptions which can't be proven.

What is Jesus actually talking about? What is it to believe?

Chris

The Lord Jesus Christ is talking about belielving upon Him. Nothing is stopping a sinner from believing upon Jesus than his mere will. It is easy to see that we need Jesus. All we need to do is to look at the Law of God, namely the Ten Commandments, and then judge ourselves by them. When we do, we see that in God's eyes, we aren't as good as we think. The ten commandments act as sort of moral mirror. When we take the time to look at ourselves in it, we see ourselves in true. The law is given by God to humble sinners that they may see their need for a Savior. Jesus said that whosoever believes in Him, which is to say, whoever believes that He died to save them from their own personal sins, namely, their law breaking, they will have eternal life. This isnt rocket science. Again, the only thing that keeps sinners away from Christ is the sinner. If you want to believe, as you said, I would suggest that you cry out to God in humility and honesty and ask Him to give you a heart that you may believe. Say, "I believe, please help my unbelief." If anyone truely wants to know God, they will know that Jesus is the truth. But, for those who just want appeasement and who could really careless about being servants of God, they will never find truth and beauty in Christ.

 

[pfw]

My opinion is that belief and faith are slowly built up over time (and there's plenty who disagree with that pov) and to a degree are 'evidence based'.

That evidence doesn't have to be based on historical truth, science or logic- evidence in this case wouls, I'd suggest, be more along the lines of 'does it work for me?' or perhaps how it makes you feel.

The worst thing that can be done-in any belief system-is to try to force that belief/faith on yourself; you shouldn't try or pretend to be as 'spiritual' (or whatever) as people who've held and nurtured their faith over a long time and have come to a greater understanding of it. (as an example Thomas has got a much greater understanding of theology than I have- It would be totaly pointless for me to pretend to share his understanding or level of knowledge. Much better for me if I simply ask questions and learn-by asking more questions and listening.)

It's all a learning curve-as much as going from primary school science to a degree in physics-you can only go at your own pace, anything else is just confusion and/or frustration.

I think questions and a willingness to learn are the important factors in belief/faith.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Silas,

I don't think it's easy to see that we need Jesus. I don't know exactly what Jesus is. I'm not sure he was an actual person. I don't see what believing does. People say that Jesus reversed the effect of the Fall, but I can't figure out how things have improved. If it's something that pays off after I'm dead, what good is that to me now? I don't have an emotional need for something outside of me to take over and straighten me out. I'm doing fine on my own, and I don't see where beliving relieves me of any responsibility to keep on doing everything for myself just like I'm doing now. So what good is it? Some kind of pie in the sky after I die?

But that's not really what I'm asking. What I want to know is how does one believe when there isn't enough to believe. How does one substitute faith for facts?

Chris

 

[wil]

Namaste China Cat,

For me it is a matter of evidence. I use the principles and it works. That substantiates my belief. That one scripture, while widely quoted doesn't do much for anyone in itself. But in reading the bible, in reading the gospels I find stories that apply directly to my life today.

I see how powerful my thoughts and words are to my current surroundings and future. I see how my perceptions control my emotions. Now all this can be found in secular studies, and motivational gurus...But it can also be found in the stories of the bible...and it is one of the sources the motivational gurus use...some of it sanitized so it is not so categorized and labeled as being Judaic or Christian or Buddhist...

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I understand what you're saying wil, but according to Jesus we're supposed to be able to do all the things that he did. Faith the size of mustard seed and all that. And I'm thinking of Thomas' post about becoming master of the body. But nobody but a couple of dusty saints somewhere (supposedly) is able to do any of that stuff. So I'm wondering what is actually meant by belief of the variety Jesus is talking about. The effects of fallen nature, if there is such a thing don't seem to have been affected by anything Jesus did. And nobody I've ever met has been able to effect any of that miraculous stuff we're being promised as a payoff for belief.

I've heard lots of interesting speculation, but nothing solid is forthcoming. So I'm wondering what the real deal with belief is. I can't just believe. I can say I do. I can go around spouting theories about how it's all supposed to work. But I don't see it working.

Chris

 

[Prober]

Man, you ask all the tough questions!

And the answer is...I don't know.

I just trust. I mean when I look at nature or think about my insides it strengthens my faith. I can't help but believe.

I'm willing to make that ignorant (unknowing) leap. It may be blind faith, but I can't think of anyone more deserving of trust.

I know this sounds corny and probably doesn't help any, but that's just how I look at it.

I really want to say something cool and intellectual, but I don't have anything like that to say about this.

All the good wishes,
Mark

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

So Mark...

How did you arrive at a point where taking a leap of faith seemed like a good idea? Did you feel that you had enough amassed enough evidence that it was a logical extension, or was it that you were tired of looking for evidence and decided to chuck it and just believe. Do you recall how the process worked where you went from point A to point B?

And what's the payoff? What can you now do that you couldn't before? Or is there a payoff?

Chris

 

[Paladin]

Chris, it sounds as if you are in conflict between what your experience is and what you feel you are supposed to believe based on the model others have. Is that close?

 

[Prober]

So Mark...

How did you arrive at a point where taking a leap of faith seemed like a good idea? Did you feel that you had enough amassed enough evidence that it was a logical extension, or was it that you were tired of looking for evidence and decided to chuck it and just believe. Do you recall how the process worked where you went from point A to point B?

And what's the payoff? What can you now do that you couldn't before? Or is there a payoff?

Chris

I'll get back to you in a couple of minutes. Gotta do something.

P.s. G-d just kept me from swallowing a piece of glass! More later.

 

[wil]

You know I wanted to start a thread called Miracles Shmiracles... Whether they were performed or not or how many were we don't know. Just like fisherman coming back from the day the stories always expand with the telling....and we have to remember they were told for decades before they were written down.

Even if they were (the miracles performed) we know from Moses time he and the Egyptian priests battled magic for magic to see who's G-d was better, and according to the stories both had some pretty good tricks up their sleeves...and the tricks are for the masses...those that need something more...

I personally don't believe in miracles...and I think it all a miracle. I think everything labeled as miracles is natural....skills we've forgotten...that faith of a mustard seed, completely unwavering belief...we've largely lost that as you report.

So back to the meat and potatoes stuff...taking it from scripture and to the streets. I look at the beatitudes, or turn the other cheek, or love your enemy, or seeing G-d and good in everything and everyone...practicing these type of things truly changes your life quite quickly....but it is practicing...it isn't easy...when we stumble we have to give up.

Tis the realization that nobody can make you mad, it is your choice. That nobody cuts you off on the freeway, it is your perception. If you begin going through life without making waves...it isn't that your boat stops rocking...it is that it no longer matters...you can find the calm in the storm...perception changes.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Chris, it sounds as if you are in conflict between what your experience is and what you feel you are supposed to believe based on the model others have. Is that close?

I'm trying to figure out what it actually is to believe in Jesus, and what it actually does. I guess those are two different questions. I can't believe in something just because I'd like to, I have to actually be convinced. So I'm wondering how one goes about getting to the point where they believe, and, related to that, what the actual payoff is for that belief.

Chris

 

[Silas]

Silas,

I don't think it's easy to see that we need Jesus. I don't know exactly what Jesus is. I'm not sure he was an actual person. I don't see what believing does. People say that Jesus reversed the effect of the Fall, but I can't figure out how things have improved. If it's something that pays off after I'm dead, what good is that to me now? I don't have an emotional need for something outside of me to take over and straighten me out. I'm doing fine on my own, and I don't see where beliving relieves me of any responsibility to keep on doing everything for myself just like I'm doing now. So what good is it? Some kind of pie in the sky after I die?

But that's not really what I'm asking. What I want to know is how does one believe when there isn't enough to believe. How does one substitute faith for facts?

Chris

Hey Chris,

As I already stated, you have all you need to know to know if Jesus is truely the Savior and God. You have eyes to see Creation and a mind to know taht evolution is foolish; just like you have a mind to understand that the typo "taht" is really the word "that." You know that there is a Creator because of Creation. Futhermore, you know that you have offened God because of your conscience. Your conscience convicts you of breaking God's laws that He has written on your heart. When you lie, no one has to tell you, you just know. God has done that for you to know that He is, and that you are offending a perfect and holy judge. Again, look at the Ten Commandments and judge yourself by them. If you could see how a Holy and Perfectly Righteous God can get offended by your law breaking, you will understand Jesus. Then, if you would only believe, He would prove Himself. Coming to Christ isnt so much about happiness as it is righteousness. Dont suppose that the gospel is therapy. It is not! The gospel is that God commands sinners to repent and believe upon the name of Jesus. The gospel is that a Holy and Righteous God has shown His love towards sinners by sending His Son to be the atoning sacrifice for sinners, in order that God's righteousness against sin may be seen, and that sinners may be justified in God's court if they repent and believe on the grounds that Christ paid their fine. Jesus died to vindicate God's justice and also to justify those who would trust in Him. Then, on the 3rd day, He rose from the grave to validate His claims. If you believe upon Him, you will be saved from the wrath that is to come. My suggestion stands, Chris. If you truely want to know the truth, cry out to God until He answers your prayer. Beg Him for a heart to believe. Jesus is mighty to save and He delights in saving helpless people, that He may get the Glory and you the joy, which is the best of both worlds.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

So back to the meat and potatoes stuff...taking it from scripture and to the streets. I look at the beatitudes, or turn the other cheek, or love your enemy, or seeing G-d and good in everything and everyone...practicing these type of things truly changes your life quite quickly....but it is practicing...it isn't easy...when we stumble we have to give up.

O.K, but does one need to believe in Jesus to do that kind of stuff? I like the Golden Rule thing too, but it's not something that I need Jesus to recommend to me, or anything that requires me to believe. It just makes sense from a purely selfish point of view.

I think everything is mundanely miraculous as well, which implies that since everything is sacred, nothing is extraordinarily sacred. Don't need Jesus for that either.

Chris

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Silas,

The gospel is that God commands sinners to repent and believe upon the name of Jesus.

O.K., but I don't know what that belief actually entails. Don't you think God knows the difference between simply professing belief and actually believing? I don't know how I would get to the point of genuine belief unless I got amnesia or something.

Chris

 

[Silas]

Silas,

O.K., but I don't know what that belief actually entails. Don't you think God knows the difference between simply professing belief and actually believing? I don't know how I would get to the point of genuine belief unless I got amnesia or something.

Chris

Again. Look at the Ten Commandments and judge yourself by it. Would you consider yourself to be a good person? The answer to that question will be answered in you judging yourself by God's standard of goodness, namely His Law (ten commandents) and Jesus. Consider yourself in light of Jesus' life. Have you always done good with perfect and selfless motives? Do you live to the glory of God? Have you ever lied or looked in lust? Have you ever taken God's name in vain? Are you good? If you see yourself in need of forgivness, there is a Savior provided for you. You only need to believe. And again, beg to give you a heart to believe. Keep asking and He'll answer.

 

[Paladin]

OK Chris, I'm sure you must understand that belief is different depending on the level of development of the individual, and therefore the "payoff" is different as well. If you ask a mystic she may say that a belief is something integral within her very being based on gnosis. A person at the magic or mythic level of development may have convinced themselves that they need something or someone outside themselves to act upon their environment which is beyond their own control. The question is what kind of payoff would you like?

 

[wil]

O.K, but does one need to believe in Jesus to do that kind of stuff? I like the Golden Rule thing too, but it's not something that I need Jesus to recommend to me, or anything that requires me to believe. It just makes sense from a purely selfish point of view.

I think everything is mundanely miraculous as well, which implies that since everything is sacred, nothing is extraordinarily sacred. Don't need Jesus for that either.

Chris

Short answer, no. Not in my opinion.

One can carve their own path through the jungle or follow another. The Dali Lama recommends meditating hours each day for growth... it'll work for you to. But I think you like me have a family, a job, kids. I prefer to find a mentor, mine is my elder brother and wayshower. You could use another, maybe the Buddha, or the Tao...there are other ways. What resonates? But most modern day gurus as I said have their info based on somebody's scripture...some old prophets...and you can buy a few hundred or thousand dollars worth of their cds, dvds, and books, but bibles are cheap. Church is every Sunday and classes are held during the week to bolster you up and get you back on track as the material world takes you flying in different directions.

Whatever you find as a way, study it, spend time with it, practice it, guage your results..keep a journal...see what you think, feel, taste...

You posted this on the liberal board. Which means I can express myself and indicate that which was said by John Paul....G-d wants everyone in Heaven...and you don't have to follow Jesus to get there.

Now in my opinion, you don't have to follow Him...but you will go in his 'name' in his 'nature' by serving others, by doing good works...that is respected by all...

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

OK Chris, I'm sure you must understand that belief is different depending on the level of development of the individual, and therefore the "payoff" is different as well. If you ask a mystic she may say that a belief is something integral within her very being based on gnosis. A person at the magic or mythic level of development may have convinced themselves that they need something or someone outside themselves to act upon their environment which is beyond their own control. The question is what kind of payoff would you like?

I mean, what good is it doing for the world at large: all these people believing in Jesus. What's the payoff in the overall sense? I'm not looking for a personal payoff. The Universe is helping me out because my motives and intentions are pretty clear (to me). By the way, how is your new thing working out for you?

Chris

 

[Paladin]

Very kind of you to ask Chris, I am studying with a group in esoteric Christianity right now, and on a transformative level it is very helpful. If you are asking about the conventional beliefs in Jesus, they help those who at the magic or mythic level by fulfilling the desires and parameters of that particular v-meme or cultural value construct. What it does for the "world" is fairly relative since there is both a healthy and unhealthy expression of belief. Those who have found inspiration to transform their lives, show kindess, compassion, forgiveness, and then those who use religion to control, blame shame and other unhealthy ideas. Fred Phelps comes to mind as a most extreme example of unhealthy expression of that meme.