Famous Quotes on Reincarnation

Discussion in 'Alternative' started by Nick the Pilot, Mar 1, 2007.

  1. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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  2. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    Interesting link, Nick. Thank you. I have added it to my favorites. (My favorite list is getting big.)

    I love the comment on Twain's observation! I don't know that I would personally "reverse spin" the Scripture from John 9 in the same way, but it is something to think about.

    I have my own thoughts on reincarnation which I am not quite ready to express yet. But I don't see it as necessarily something that Christianity could not embrace. Kind of depends on the individual, I think....

    Thanks again!

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Thanx Nick,

    I believe Christianity and those who walked with Christ had a definitive belief in reincarnation. And I also believe in a forgiving G-d, one who would not even consider that we would be able to get this right the first time through.

    And I have to find out the chapter and verse of that Koran quote!!
     
  4. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

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    Thanks Nick...the Pistis Sophia quotes ring truest for me.

    flow....:)
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Hi Nick -

    As this is 'alternative' I will not argue the case, but I'd hate for you to labour under a misconception ... the Origen quote is probably a fabrication, as I can find no trace of it ... as a rule, unless the precise source is referenced, then it's safer to discount it. It's not in De Princiipis nor Contra Celsus, the latter being the book in which he argues against the doctrine most forcibly.

    (Reincarnation quotes falsely attributed to Origen are everywhere.)

    +++

    The Scripture quotes reflect poorly on the source ... they are deceptively selective, to put it kindly.

    John 9:2:
    And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?"

    They were among the most knowledgeable men of Christian doctrine in history because they got it straight from the Master; and yet these learned men asked if the man was born blind because of a previous sin. Editor, Reverse Spins
    This is the gross anachronism – they were followers, and the author assumes that by 'disciples' John means the Twelve, which is not necessarily the case. Jesus had disciples numbering in the hundreds at one point. The words 'the most knowledgeable men of Christian doctrine in history' is a clear attempt at distortion - by the Apostle's own words, we know they did not understand the significance of Christ's words until the Pasch.

    Likewise, if the editor had printed Christ's reply:
    "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents;"
    Then his argument falls down.

    +++

    And again:
    "But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.' Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist." —Jesus, (Matthew 17:12, 13)

    I shall let the Man of Steel speak on this one:
    "In this place [when Jesus said Elijah was come and referred to John the Baptist] it does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I fall into the doctrine of transmigration, which is foreign to the Church of God, and not handed down by the apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the scriptures" (Origen Commentary on Matthew A.D. 248).

    Thomas
     
  6. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    And yet, interestingly enough Thomas, if one simply types in Origen and reincarnation into Google, one gets back 43,100 hits. All because someone misquoted him in a fluff piece of poor scholarship?

    Or could it be ... that in fact, Origen was the last great bastion of the original Teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ ... before he was latterly made to say all sorts of things which would seem to contradict the doctrine of Rebirth?


    No no, to be fair, we know that Origen himself, in his own day, was forced to speak in blinds, symbol, and allegory ... for he had the entire growing condemnation of the Church coming down to bear against him, such that:
    "Origen was finally officially condemned in the Second Council of Constantinople in 553, when fifteen anathemas were charged against him."
    -- (first website under above search parameters)
    If, among his wise words, we find that the teachings on Reincarnation are not convenient ... I wouldn't get too excited just because Origen himself hestitates to "speak against the Church of God, and the tradition of the Apostles." MANY were quite aware, in his day - and later - of the consequences for so doing ... and they, as he, seem to have met with such consequences, regardless of any cautions taken.

    When does condemnation (or ridicule ... if not persecution, even crucifixion) for speaking Truth cease? When is the latter ever popular? :(
    [But, in answer to my own question, when 43,100 hits on Google come back, I can only smile - because perhaps people DO finally want to know ... :)]

    ~andrew
     
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Hi Zagreus:

    And yet, interestingly enough Thomas, if one simply types in Origen and reincarnation into Google, one gets back 43,100 hits. All because someone misquoted him in a fluff piece of poor scholarship?

    Or because it's referencing texts that refute the doctrine.

    Or could it be ... that in fact, Origen was the last great bastion of the original Teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ ... before he was latterly made to say all sorts of things which would seem to contradict the doctrine of Rebirth?
    Not really, it couldn't be that. Origen had friends and enemies, so we know what he wrote from his detractors as well as his supporters ... if you want to present such a claim, you are obliged to supply evidence, else everybody and anybody is open to the same thing ... it's not a viable argument... I could suggest an equal case about the founders of the Theosophical Association, that they were obliged to toe the line, even when they didn't believe it ... as i think I mentioned once, as I understand it, HPB was recobciled with the Russian Orthodox Church before she died ... there's no evidence, of course, but then, by your logic, the absence of evidence is all the more suggestive...

    No no, to be fair, we know that Origen himself, in his own day, was forced to speak in blinds, symbol, and allegory ...
    forced? By whom? Please, Andrew, if you are going to make claims and cast aspertions, you are obliged to substantiate them ... this is why Christians give Theosophists short shrift ... they make huge claims, none of them with a shred of evidence ... that is not Philosophy, nor Theosophy, in the Greek Tradition.

    In fact it's base Rhetoric, clever and persuasive argument regardless of the facts, which Plato was most outspoken against.

    ... for he had the entire growing condemnation of the Church coming down to bear against him,
    Well here you are factually wrong, for in his own lifetime he was held in high esteem. Any condemnation of him came later (about 300 years).

    such that:
    "Origen was finally officially condemned in the Second Council of Constantinople in 553, when fifteen anathemas were charged against him."
    -- (first website under above search parameters)


    Had you have read further, you will know that these are now considered an interpolation, and are not part of the Official documents of the Councils. (see Tanner.)

    Also, it has subsequently been demonstrated that 'Origenism' which was taught in certain Eastern monasteries, and which provided the substantial body of the 15 anathemas, cannot in fact be attributed to Origen.

    For 300 years he was considered an unimpeachable authority on Scripture, and in the later Christological disputes that arose, moves were made to discredit his name as a means of undermining the orthodox Christian position.

    It is, without doubt, a sad affair, and it is not the only case of such, but then, such is human nature ... suffice to say that he has been reinstated by the Church today, and his works are again referenced in theology.

    If, among his wise words, we find that the teachings on Reincarnation are not convenient ... I wouldn't get too excited just because Origen himself hestitates to "speak against the Church of God, and the tradition of the Apostles."
    This is a spurious argument, Andrew, and you know it. Because there is no evidence, you are suggesting a conspiracy. This is tantamount to saying someone is guilty by virtue of the fact they have an alibi.

    In law this is called calumny.

    When does condemnation (or ridicule ... if not persecution, even crucifixion) for speaking Truth cease?
    I don't know Andrew ... you tell me.

    When is the latter ever popular?
    The truth is never popular. Jesus told us that Himself.

    But, in answer to my own question, when 43,100 hits on Google come back, I can only smile - because perhaps people DO finally want to know ...
    Then you are deluding yourself ... you need to count how many of those hits refer to Origen's refutation of the doctrine ... (second website under your search parameters), for starters ... then filtrer out the ones which are repeating the erroneous attributions ... then ...

    ... and even then ... neither you nor I can claim that Origen is infallible ...

    Thomas
     
  8. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Thomas, sometimes you surprise me. The rest of the time, all that you say is patently offensive, it is pure absurdity, and it merely demonstrates that yes, it IS possible for a man to become educated beyond his means.

    I am sick and tired of this. You feel it is necessary to come and invade every forum where the Sophia Perennis is discussed, yet you also insist on give it your OWN (KEY WORDS - YOUR OWN)

    Catholic ...

    non-reincarnationist ...

    SPIN

    And buddy, even just the word PERENNIS ...

    says it all. Care to tell us what THAT word means, in Latin?

    Nick has been courteous enough to remind me of my ancient pledge.

    And I've HAD it. I cannot fulfil that pledge while you, Thomas, continue to carry on this way.

    Don't look for me as Taijasi. And don't look for me as Zagreus. You DISGUST me, and remind me of why, though some of my best friends have been Catholic .... the dogmatism, and the stuffiness, are FAR TOO MUCH for me to be able to metabolize these days.

    Nick, GOOD LUCK.

    From now on, I'll seek like company among Baha'is. Forget Catholicism, and forget Christianity. Seek Him in your meditations, if TRUTH ever interests you more than status quo, and defending your own personal, pet positions and agendas ...

    Nasti Paro Dharma

    Tat Tvam Asi

    I salute the Divinity within thee, but I cannot contend with your Intellect, which insists on trying to topple that of those who disagree with your party line ...

    Therefore, I sign off.

    Namaskar wil, Nick, InLove, et al,

    ~andrew :confused:
     
  9. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    Namaste, Andrew--

    It is all going to be alright, my friend. I just know.

    I love you.

    I don't believe that Thomas is the enemy.

    InPeace,
    Debora,
    InLove
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    ARRRGGGHHH, say it ain't so.

    That ole agree to disagree is valid...

    You of all people know that no one can make you mad, why do you let him get you so.

    As you are aware your views...and my views are at times as irritating to others...

    One can't get upset because a plum is purple, or that it is a different color on the inside or the taste changes when it is dried. We are dealing with known quantities here now and it behooves us all to state our opinions but move on and discuss.

    You are all so worthy....the disparate viewpoints are required for discussion...there are two sides to every coin...can you seperate them?? Would they be of any value if you could?? Those that play here are not interested in sitting around the table with folks that think and look like us...we are here for the expansion and awareness of this vast world of thought....

    Every soul leaving the discussion leaves a void...

    What better place to practice unconditional love than here?
     
  11. Ciel

    Ciel in essence

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    Or is it all an excuse for another reincarnation Zag?

    - c -
     
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Andrew -

    After I posted, I set off on a 20+ mile motorcyle ride home. Along the way, I grew increasingly dissatisfied with my post, not for its content, but because I knew you would misconstrue what I have written.

    So please, step back a moment, calm down, and try and see it, from where I am coming from ... let me tell you something about the Origen I know ... in fact, listen to the man himself:

    "I want to be a man of the Church. I do not want to be called by the name of some founder of a heresy, but by the name of Christ, and to bear that name which is blessed on the earth. It is my desire, in deed as in spirit, both to be, and be called, a Christian.

    If I, who seem to be your right hand and am called presbyter and seem to preach the Word of God, if I do something against the discipline of the Church and the Rule of the Gospel so that I become a scandal to you, the Church, then may the whole Church, in unanimous resolve, cut me, its right hand, off, and throw me away."
    from Origen: Spirit and Fire a thematic anthology of his writings, edited by Hans Urs von Balthasar. (T&T Clark, Edinburgh, 2001)

    For that very reason I will defend his name whenever and wherever it is attached to a falsehood, and until someone can show me the text from which the supposed quotation was taken, and in the face of all the evidence to the contrary with regard to the matter of reincarnation, I will defend his name, and his honour, and his memory.

    In the face of the injustices he has suffered at the hands of the Church he so loved, and I love, injustices I never seek to mask nor hide, I can do nothing else ... the fault is ever ours, not Hers.

    Rest easy in the knowledge that should our paths cross again, for my part, none of this will stand between us.

    Pax,

    Thomas
    Thomas
     
  13. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Hi everybody!

    My, my, it seems I have stirred up quite a pot! (This has taken me by surprise.)

    InLove,

    I am glad Twain has given you a new way to look at that line in the Bible.

    Wil.

    You said,

    "I believe Christianity and those who walked with Christ had a definitive belief in reincarnation."

    --> I do, too. One idea is that Jesus taught reincarnation, and this part was edited out of the Bible. (This is exactly what I believe.)

    Flow,

    I am glad you liked that quote.

    Thomas,

    You said,

    "...the Origen quote is probably a fabrication...."

    --> I'll take your word for it. (Perhaps you could contact the owner of that website?) Do not worry — we have plenty of other reincarnation quotes to take its place.

    I have heard Christians go round and round on whether the Bible does or does not support reincarnation. Personally, I am not worried about it. Although, if a person bases their belief system on the Bible, and they then wish to consider the idea of reincarnation, I can see how that would be a problem. Apparantly, some people with Bible-centered belief systems need to consider putting the Bible aside before even thinking of taking a look at reincarnation. They probably will not do that, and that is fine. I want everyone's Path to take them wherever it take them.

    You are interested in the debate whether this scripture or that scripture proves or disproves reincarnation. Entire books have been written on this topic. As this topic is unimportant to me, I have no interest in such books. However, for people out there who are interested in such books, they need to know these books are out there.

    You said,

    "After I posted, I set off on a 20+ mile motorcyle ride home. Along the way, I grew increasingly dissatisfied with my post, not for its content, but because I knew you would misconstrue what I have written."

    --> I appreciate your efforts. The more we can improve our abilities to communicate, the better.

    Andrew,

    Regarding Thomas' coming into the thread, all I can say is that it gives reincarnation more exposure, and it gets more people thinking about reincarnation. For that, we can thank Thomas. I am also reminded of a quote, "For those who believe, no proof is required. For those who do not believe, no proof is enough."

    Andrew, you have also fallen into a classic debater's trap — allowing Thomas to switch the topic off the original topic, and onto a new topic they approve of. Fortunately, I am a trained and experienced debater, so I do not allow myself to fall into such a topic-switch. Practice persistence, Andrew, and eventually your efforts will pay off.

    Regarding Origen, drop the topic. So he has been misrepresented over the years. It means nothing to me. I am the first to admit Origen may have been misrepresented. To me it is a non-issue, and only takes away from the discussion of reincarnation — which is why all of us have gathered here in the first place.

    Wil,

    You said,

    "...why do you let him get you so."

    --> This is something Andrew will just have to get over. Don't worry, it will come with time.

    Ciel,

    You asked,

    "Or is it all an excuse for another reincarnation...?"

    --> As a matter of fact, you have reminded me of a previous life of mine. I was told (by an excellent psychic) that I was extrememly short-tempered in a previous life (in Japan — yoroshiku!) As my lifetimes have gone by, I have made progress. This shows that there is hope for all of us. That is the beauty of reincarnation. For those of us who cannot get it right in one lifetime (like 99.99% of us), we can come back as many times as necessary, to get it right. This, to me, makes absolute, perfect, logical sense, and I can see no flaw in the concept whatsoever.
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    er, excuse me ... allowing Thomas to switch the topic off the original topic, and onto a new topic they approve of ... not quite ... my post was simply to highlight a mis-attribution, and could have rested there. The rest, as they say, is history.

    Thomas
     
  15. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    Well, for me, whether or not I have lived many times and died as many, I am in this life right now in this moment. If I can only see one lifetime at a time, I choose to see this one. I know I (we) will live. What else really matters?

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  16. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    If a psychic could tell me where I was born in this life I might believe they knew something about previous lives.

    Reincarnation is one of those things I have no way of verifying, so I just leave it alone.

    Chris
     
  17. Prober

    Prober Give Us This Day...

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    You were born in...well, nevermind...you wouldn't believe me...:D
     
  18. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    InLove,

    You said,

    "Well, for me, whether or not I have lived many times and died as many, I am in this life right now in this moment. If I can only see one lifetime at a time, I choose to see this one. I know I (we) will live. What else really matters?"

    --> Actually, I have found a belief in reincarnation changes a person's perception of this life — and the way they approach this life. My belief in reincarnation has certainly changed the way I lead my life.

    Everybody,

    The topic of the Bible and reincarnation has been raised. Some people may be interested in more information.

    Here are some links to the Past Lives Forum — one of the best reincarnation Forums on the Internet.

    ~~~

    What does the Bible say about reincarnation? - Past Life Forum

    How do reincarnation and Christianity fit together? - Past Life Forum

    The Gnostic Texts and Reincarnation - Past Life Forum

    Elijah and John The Baptist - A Case of Reincarnation Mentioned in the Bible - Past Life Forum

    Biblical past lives - Past Life Forum

    What Jesus said about children who -- do not forget - Past Life Forum

    Biblical times - Past Life Forum

    The Holy Land during Jesus' lifetime? - Past Life Forum
     
  19. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    China,

    You said,

    "If a psychic could tell me where I was born in this life I might believe they knew something about previous lives."

    You know what they say — be careful what you ask for, you just might get it. The things psychics have told me have been amazing.
     
  20. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    Morning, Everyone :)

    It's beautiful outside. It's still dark out there, but the moon is big and the stars are showing. Got my coffee--it's all good.

    I was reading back through this thread trying to understand things a little better. This, in turn, pointed me once again to just how little I really understand in certain areas! But I'm working on it.

    Anyway, I wanted to address the following comment, Nick:

    I am a little confused here, because I don't get the connection. I would think that the comment attached to Twain's would find its source in the Bhagavad Gita, not the Bible. I'm not being argumentative, Nick, just inquisitive, I suppose. Like I said, I want to understand as much as I can.

    I have been reading the Past Lives links you provided. I have not gotten through all of it, but there are some interesting conversations there.

    Currently, I am not too worried about the issue of reincarnation. Right now, I focus on the Love factor, and that pretty much takes my time (and gives it back and takes it again and ....well, you probably get the picture.) But that doesn't mean that I am not interested in the experience of a fellow earthling, including those who spend more time in the sky than most. :) So if you would like to share how your belief in reincarnation as helped you, I would love to read about it. But if not, that's okay too. Maybe you have already posted a link to that effect somewhere already and I may have looked past it.

    InPeace,
    InLove
     

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