Question about Satan

[Nogodnomasters]

This question is for our Christian members.

Can Satan perform miracles? If not why is he a threat. If so, what if any are the limitations of his miracles and why doesn't he perform more for his cause?

 

[Adamante]

I've heard many Christians who do not even believe in Satan or hell. There are a few view points like that, so I know they would not believe in anything at all concerning him of course.

Satan...IF he does exist. He would have to have some kind of ability or power, that God can not control completely. If it could be controlled, then no one would suffer eternal damnation in the fires of hell! If all temptation and evil comes from Satan, and God can control Satan, then ultimately, God allows such a thing to exist. That is very sad, that God would have us burn in hell forever if our gift of free will was missused. So, I'll say that God can't control him completely for this thread.

Satan is interesting also in the matter, that all angels were created by God, to love and serve Him. When did Satan or Lucifer, suddenly gain the ability of free thought and free will? How can ANYTHING in the very presence of God, turn against God? And there were other angels who turned against God also. (Wonder if any souls from Earth has ever turned against God??)

Who's to say that Satans miracles aren't preformed everyday? Some may actually be good things. When he tempted Adam and Eve, he was trying to have us gain knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil, etc. That was quite a miracle that he was able to tempt us and God not know Satan did it...b/c it wasn't too much longer that God came to the garden asking questions of Adam and Eve. It also did not sound like God intended for mankind to become what we are.

Sorry, I'm getting a bit off topic, but think of the wide reciever or running back for your favorite pro football team. When they catch that winning pass, they give God the praise and thank Him for helping them catch that ball. Who knows, maybe Satan keeps some from catching the winning touchdown, so that they lose. But you never hear anyone saying that in public!! Maybe Satan created the AIDS virus or the common cold. In our society in America, many good things are attributed to God. Many bad things are attributed to Satan. Maybe that's the miracles he performs.

I guess Satan doesn't do more for his cause b/c maybe he does all he can. Some say God speaks to them...maybe Satan speaks to some too. Maybe Satan does a few good deeds to seem as God for those who see, then leads them astray. That's very powerful. Maybe he already has the large majority of people heading to his gates with his deception already. If monotheism is the answer...there are a LOT who are wrong.

 

[Zazen]

well

excuse me if i cant document this(although it shouldnt be hard) but as far as i know, in the christian tradition, satan as a individual being does exist in heaven. this is stated in revelations where it is said he is held captive by the angels(probably names some) but it also says that even though his "physical" form is captive, his spirit is allowed to roam the earth, its also said in revelations that when the time comes he will inherit the earth..

anyway, regardless im no master of the christian religion, i mean i cant just say why this or that is in the bible and why etc i have my own oppinions but atm i cant exactly put them into words where i would make much sense to anyone..that being said i think alot is needed to understand the bible, i mean there has been such a drastic change of the christian pov on many issues that werent present untill the translation to english

anyhow, hope the above helps nogod..

amitabha

 

[Nogodnomasters]

If Satan is part of the Christian faith and has supernatural powers, by definition he would be a god also. Many religions had minor gods with limited powers who performed special functions. Satan would fir that mode.
[Moderator edit]
I believe, then that Christianity is not a monotheistic religion
[End moderator edit]

 

[Pagan-prophet]

If Satan is part of the Christian faith and has supernatural powers, by definition he would be a god also. Many religions had minor gods with limited powers who performed special functions. Satan would fir that mode.
[Moderator edit]
I believe, then that Christianity is not a monotheistic religion
[End moderator edit]

This seems interesting to me.

How many Gods are there?
Deuteronomy 6:4 "The Lord our God is one Lord."

vs.

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image."
Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil."
I John 5:7 "And there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
It does no good to claim that "Let us" is the magisterial "we." Such usage implies inclusivity of all authorities under a king's leadership. Invoking the Trinity solves nothing because such an idea is more contradictory than the problem it attempts to solve.

this is stated in revelations where it is said he is held captive by the angels(probably names some) but it also says that even though his "physical" form is captive, his spirit is allowed to roam the earth, its also said in revelations that when the time comes he will inherit the earth..

anyhow, hope the above helps nogod..

amitabha

If God was omniscient then he would have known before he made the world that Satan would take over if he made it the way he did. In other words he set up the world to be eventually taken over by the most evil guy ever… That seems a bit mean of God in my opinion…

 

[JJM]

If Satan is part of the Christian faith and has supernatural powers, by definition he would be a god also. Many religions had minor gods with limited powers who performed special functions. Satan would fir that mode.
[Moderator edit]
I believe, then that Christianity is not a monotheistic religion
[End moderator edit]

I think that this is very valid. I've often thought in my own personal beliefs that many old pagan religions where simply misunderstandings of God's message. Most seem to have a very all most all powerful god that leads all the lesser gods. It seems to me that these lesser gods where misinterpretations of angels and because human beings thought that they where just the same as God. (Giving them his authority and him their weakness) They also started sacrificing to them instead of only God. It think that is why when God came to Explain things to Jews He was very careful to make the distinctions between him and Angles. Just My opinion.

As for this quote from Pagan-prophet


"If God was omniscient then he would have known before he made the world that Satan would take over if he made it the way he did. In other words he set up the world to be eventually taken over by the most evil guy ever… That seems a bit mean of God in my opinion…"

I think that God is All powerful in the sense that he can do anything because he created all and thus can manipulate it. I don't think he can know what our actions will be though because then we wouldn't have freedom of choice. He can take that a way from us but he doesn't because he knows that is the biggest evil of all. Thus we can only assume that he gives the same choice to angels who are higher beings than us regardless of what they where created for.

______________________________________________
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates

 

[arthra]

Pagan-prophet, if you study the Bible it is I think a fairly faithful record of the developement of religion, so there was a time when the Hebrews believed there were other gods but that their God was supreme for them... and aided them in battles and so forth...

But i wondered if you were aware that the following verse:

I John 5:7 "And there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Comment:

is not in modern Bible translations such as the Jerusalem Bible, the New English Bible and the NIV, you won't see the trinitarian formula, "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost". The reason is that most scholars believe there was a scribal interpolation as it's not to be found in earlier manuscripts. So I think some credit should be given to Christians as they recognized this and have tried to correct it.


I believe Christianity is a monotheistic religion as the Lord Jesus in Mark quotes Leviticus 19:18 "...the Lord your God is one Lord" and "there is one alone who is good" in Matthew 19:17 but that the church in attempting to set down dogma misunderstood the basic teachings of teh Lord and became embroled in theological conflicts...

Similarly, the place of Satan in Christian theology is likewise I believe based on misunderstanding....

- Art

 

[iBrian]

On the issue of that, I write a short piece on it here:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/articles/jesus_hell.php

It doesn;t deal directly with the issue of Satan, but that topic extrapolates nicely from it, especially when you consider that Stan is "Hashatan" which is "opposer" - and can be very much a figurative expression.

 

[arthra]

Brian, that was a well researched article.

Thanks for sharing it!

In the Baha'i Writings, "Satan" is viewed as representing the lower nature of man:

`Abdu'l-Bahá points out that in traditional Holy Writings `this lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan', and explains that Satan is but `the evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside': elsewhere He says: `Satan, or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways.'

And

"The attributes of God are love and mercy; the attribute of Satan is hate. Therefore, he who is merciful and kind to his fellowmen is manifesting the divine attribute, and he who is hating and hostile toward a fellow creature is satanic. God is absolute love, even as Jesus Christ has declared, and Satan is utter hatred. Wherever love is witnessed, know that there is a manifestation of God's mercy; whenever you meet hatred and enmity, know that these are the evidences and attributes of Satan. The Prophets have appeared in this world with the mission that human souls may become the expressions of the Merciful, that they may be educated and developed, attain to love and amity and establish peace and agreement."

- `Abdu'l-Bahá in "The Promulgation of Universal Peace"
pages 39-42

- Art

 

[Phi]

Hubris is Satan

The title of the thread is the theme of it.
From hubris is all evil. Can Hubris move about as a spirit? Perhaps it is more like a virus, a meme. We can be taught it. When enough of us are infected by it we move as a group to do unto others that which we would not have done unto us.
Can anyone think of any evil not begun in hubris?

 

[Phi]

The title of the thread is the theme of it.
From hubris is all evil. Can Hubris move about as a spirit? Perhaps it is more like a virus, a meme. We can be taught it. When enough of us are infected by it we move as a group to do unto others that which we would not have done unto us.
Can anyone think of any evil not begun in hubris?

I am quoting myself, just to say that while this may seem simplistic, it does entirely correspond with that which tempted Christ, and is truly "The Adversary" as the Jewish people call him in all persons' abillity to follow the Holy One, and in all persons' inability to love one another. Think on it.

 

[kkawohl]

In the Baha'i Writings, "Satan" is viewed as representing the lower nature of man:
- Art

Art, I agree. Satan, Hell & evil are man's inventions and exist in the mind of man. Eliminate man & you eliminate Satan Hell & evil.

Kurt

 

[Quahom1]

This question is for our Christian members.

Can Satan perform miracles? If not why is he a threat. If so, what if any are the limitations of his miracles and why doesn't he perform more for his cause?

In answer to your original question, yes, according to scriptures (Christian and some non-christian), Lucifer (angel of light) AKA the devil (little god), aka Satan can perform wonders and miracles. At his height of power and majesty, he was second only to GOD. He was the favored angel, and the most powerful Arch angel in existence. He was the light bearer. Then something happened that turned him away from God. It seems to be around the so called creation of the universe, the local earth and Man.

In any event Satan has the power to perform wonders and miracles, and according to scriptures, will make great display of that ability in the end times, or the times of the apocolypse (allegedly 42 months).

The warning to Christians is to discern what spirit is issuing these great miracles, and not to take them at face value, lest one be deceived by the counterfeiter.

You asked the question, that is my answer.

v/r

Q

 

[kkawohl]

In any event Satan has the power to perform wonders and miracles, and according to scriptures, will make great display of that ability in the end times, or the times of the apocolypse (allegedly 42 months).

A couple of suggestion:
1. Stop believing in fairy tales.
2. Don't hold your breath waiting for the apocalypse. The 42 months will pass & another 42 centuries will pass & man will still occupy the earth.

 

[iBrian]

A couple of suggestion:
1. Stop believing in fairy tales.
.

kkawohl, it is not acceptable to attack people's religion here. If you disagree with religious beliefs and practices then try to do so with a respectful mind. It is not acceptable to dismiss people and their beliefs with such cheap comments.

 

[Quahom1]

No Brian, this is mine...

A couple of suggestion:
1. Stop believing in fairy tales.
2. Don't hold your breath waiting for the apocalypse. The 42 months will pass & another 42 centuries will pass & man will still occupy the earth.

I respect you KKawohl, I have read your posts with great interest. I have also been around the block a time or two in my life. And I have learned one thing.

Perception is everything. It doesn't matter what I believe, or what you believe. What people perceive is all that counts. So that means that each individual in this existence has a reality that the rest of us can't even come close to understanding.

That is what makes life amazing. We all have our own little worlds, yet we can function civily together.

You swung, I ducked, you missed. Hope you understand. peace my friend.

v/r

Q

 

[bananabrain]

hi brian, i just read your article on hell. it's quite good (although, naturally, i have my quibbles, heh)

for a start, the valley of "ben-hinnom", of which "gehenna" is a corruption, via "gehinnom" is still very much visible. in modern-day jerusalem it is a delightful little place just outside the walls of the old city and the "dung gate", nowadays known as "sultan's pool". not without irony, it is a top venue for outdoor rock concerts. it is also known as the valley of "tophet" and its use as a rubbish dump in late antiquity was considered an apt deconsecration of the idolatrous rites once practised on this site, by both the original jebusites and the israelites of the first Temple period. in fact, this is considered to have been a site for molech worship, may its memory be blotted out.

Although baptism, especially with water, was a relatively common ritual in many belief systems, it was not and still is not practised by mainstream Jews.

ahem - although it's not done in the same way, ritual immersion, or "tevilah" is an extremely important part of judaism. this can be done either in a river or open body of water or in a specially constructed pool known as a "mikveh". see this link for details: http://www.jewfaq.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi?Keywords=mikveh
as water has a ritually "consecrative" effect, the relevant immersion confers a change of status, whether from gentile to jewish, tamei to tahor or unavailable to available, whether involving sex or kitchen utensils. it is mentioned in the Torah on many occasions (mostly in leviticus) and mikva'ot constructed according to talmudic standards have been found, among other places, on masada and excavated in the city of london. "john the baptist", in immersing people in rivers, could arguably be said to have been administering chasidic-style tevilah!

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[iBrian]

Thanks for the input bb - by, you must have been a little bored.

Btw - is there a meaning to the words "Ben-Hinnom" and "gehinnom"?? Or is it essentially an arbitrarily named place rather than a meaningful name?

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Originally posted by I, Brian
is there a meaning to the words "Ben-Hinnom" and "gehinnom"?? Or is it essentially an arbitrarily named place rather than a meaningful name?

I'm not an expert on this, but I think the words "Ben-Hinnom" refers to a person, a son of a person named Hinnom ("Ben" referring to "son of"). I don't know about "gehinnom" Please correct me if I'm wrong, bb.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[bananabrain]

*grin* bored, brian? well, it is kind of a slow week apart from my album launch...

I'm not an expert on this, but I think the words "Ben-Hinnom" refers to a person, a son of a person named Hinnom ("Ben" referring to "son of"). I don't know about "gehinnom"

a quick google reveals that the missing link is "gei ben hinnom", or "the valley of the son of hinnom", who was a child that was said to have been sacrificed by his father, hinnom, to the idol molech. the child's name, according to tradition, was "nohem", meaning "moaning", referring either to his wails of pain or to the murmurs of the worshippers. either way its link to later concepts of hell is fairly dubious and comes via the church farmers. when the sages speak of sinners "inheriting gehinnom", this is taken to mean a period of 'purification by spiritual fires' or the like before the soul is said to have repented and can 'inherit its portion in the world to come'. this period lasts no longer than 12 months, which is why we say kaddish for that period. thus the most you can say is it has a sort of purgatorial nature.

of course, all of this is aggadah - thus, we are not obliged to hold a particular set of beliefs about it. judaism is rather more concerned with what people get up to while they're alive.

b'shalom

bananabrain