Will it count?
- Thread starter cavalier
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-James-
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That is exactly how I started my journey, cavalier. Then fear turned into a desire to please God, and then that desire turned into experiencing him on a spiritual level that in turn helped me achieve a measure of freedom, and peace within.
James
James
S
Silas
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It will count if you understand that you truely deserve hell, but by God's grace He will choose to save you from that dreadful place if you would repent and trust in Christ alone.
Thanks for the replies.
James, was yours the fear that Silas spoke of, or a more simple "I sure as hell don't wanna go to....hell" kind?
Silas, what if I don't understand that? If I'm just scared that this place, hell, might exist and I know I wouldn't want to go there?
James, was yours the fear that Silas spoke of, or a more simple "I sure as hell don't wanna go to....hell" kind?
Silas, what if I don't understand that? If I'm just scared that this place, hell, might exist and I know I wouldn't want to go there?
-James-
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It was more like, "I sure don't want to go to hell" I was in my twenties then, it wasn't until my pre mid thirties that I wanted to please God, (Even then I was completely lost, and rebellious to boot) and it was only recently that I have been able to experience him on a more personal level. I quit fearing him, and just started to Love, man.
James
James
Hi Cavalier –
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Fools despise wisdom and instruction."
Proverbs 1:7
And yet, I recall, 'fear not' is the most-repeated phrase in Scripture.
Fear of the Lord is not being frightened of God, but I tends to view the 'fear' as the voice of my conscience, that 'what if' niggle that makes one question whether 'the way of the world' is all that there is...
... and the Hebrew word yir'ah can mean:
a) fear, terror
b) awesome or terrifying thing (object causing fear)
c) fear (of God), respect, reverence, piety
d) revered
I think you average Hebrew saw God as something like General Patton, although on a more serious note, as mankind is governed more by its will than its intellect, sometimes you have to address his volitive nature to get his attention...
But to your answer, I think not.
I think God wants us to choose Him for His sake ... not as an insurance policy.
Thomas
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Fools despise wisdom and instruction."
Proverbs 1:7
And yet, I recall, 'fear not' is the most-repeated phrase in Scripture.
Fear of the Lord is not being frightened of God, but I tends to view the 'fear' as the voice of my conscience, that 'what if' niggle that makes one question whether 'the way of the world' is all that there is...
... and the Hebrew word yir'ah can mean:
a) fear, terror
b) awesome or terrifying thing (object causing fear)
c) fear (of God), respect, reverence, piety
d) revered
I think you average Hebrew saw God as something like General Patton, although on a more serious note, as mankind is governed more by its will than its intellect, sometimes you have to address his volitive nature to get his attention...
But to your answer, I think not.
I think God wants us to choose Him for His sake ... not as an insurance policy.
Thomas
S
Silas
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Well Cavalier,
I dont believe that the gospel is unreasonable. Moreover, I believe everyone knows it to be true, but many instead choose to supress the truth in order that they may continue in sin. You see, the sinner is what he is by nature, and he loves sin. He does not love God or the things of God, because it is not in his nature to love those things. But, what is impossible with man, is possible with God. And in the day of salvation, God makes sinners willing and they become alive. It is by grace through faith that we are saved, and not of ourselves. The sure thing that will lead ANYONE to truth is if they admit the obvious. What is the obvious? Well, the obvious is that we all break ALL of God's laws. We lie, we steal or have stolen, we look in lust, take his name in vain, love things above Him and put those things first, etc., etc. If any man would forsake those sins and follow Christ, they would surely be saved from God's wrath that is yet to come. This is not done by fear, but instead by grace. To the unregenerate, the fear of the Lord will be nonsense, they will not come to true faith by fear. Unregenerated people dont even fear God, only saved people do. Instead, what needs to happen is that you should see, at least to some degree, God's holiness superimposed with your small sins, and that coupled with grace of God as shown forth in the cross of Christ. This will melt the sinner's hard heart and they will love him because they will see that he truely first loved them. If you dont see this, you should be afarid, because it shows that the wrath of God abides on you. And as a result, you should be crying out to God to change you until you do see it that you may be lead to Christ and be saved from His wrath.
S
Silas
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I havent studied this in a while, but there are some 5 or 6 different words for "fear" in Hebrew. Yes, some does mean reverance, and in context of believers passages, it means this. But, there are also some passages that speak about dreading God, and that is mostly in context of unbelievers and the consequences of spurning God's grace.
Hi Silas:
But, there are also some passages that speak about dreading God, and that is mostly in context of unbelievers and the consequences of spurning God's grace.
Well at some point people have to face facts ... BUT
What is the obvious? Well, the obvious is that we all break ALL of God's laws. We lie, we steal or have stolen, we look in lust, take his name in vain, love things above Him and put those things first, etc., etc.
You will excuse me if I say ... speak for yourself, but don't count me among your number, nor a huge number of good people who try every day to be a little better. Might I remind you that judgement belongs to God alone, yet you seem very swift to assume the role of judge ...
I suggest a look at the Book of Job...
Thomas
But, there are also some passages that speak about dreading God, and that is mostly in context of unbelievers and the consequences of spurning God's grace.
Well at some point people have to face facts ... BUT
What is the obvious? Well, the obvious is that we all break ALL of God's laws. We lie, we steal or have stolen, we look in lust, take his name in vain, love things above Him and put those things first, etc., etc.
You will excuse me if I say ... speak for yourself, but don't count me among your number, nor a huge number of good people who try every day to be a little better. Might I remind you that judgement belongs to God alone, yet you seem very swift to assume the role of judge ...
I suggest a look at the Book of Job...
Thomas
Silas ... Disregard that bit about Job. Read the New Testament, as St Paul says, 'a better way', specifically the Gospels, and count the number of times Jesus tells his people to not to fear, but to have faith in the love of God.
Matthew 4:40
"And he said to them: Why are you fearful? have you not faith yet?"
Luke 1:74
"That being delivered from the hand of our enemies, we may serve him without fear."
I have faith, although I am not perfect, and I serve Him, although not perfectly, and I know the enemy still has his greasy fingers in my entrails, because I am human, but I don't fear that, either ... I just keep rollin' along ...
Thomas
Matthew 4:40
"And he said to them: Why are you fearful? have you not faith yet?"
Luke 1:74
"That being delivered from the hand of our enemies, we may serve him without fear."
I have faith, although I am not perfect, and I serve Him, although not perfectly, and I know the enemy still has his greasy fingers in my entrails, because I am human, but I don't fear that, either ... I just keep rollin' along ...
Thomas
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Yes, Thomas, that strikes me too how often the message "Fear not! I am with you!" is made by Jesus in the Gospels, and "love drives out fear."
Faith in God, trusting Christ, loving God and each other...these things drive away the anxiety that comes naturally from our fear about death, our fears which keep us from life.
In a way Silas has a point, but perhaps it is being delivered in a slightly skewed manner. It is not that we should turn to God because we are afraid of God's wrath, but that we recognize that God's love is the answer to our fears.
Faith in God, trusting Christ, loving God and each other...these things drive away the anxiety that comes naturally from our fear about death, our fears which keep us from life.
In a way Silas has a point, but perhaps it is being delivered in a slightly skewed manner. It is not that we should turn to God because we are afraid of God's wrath, but that we recognize that God's love is the answer to our fears.
S
Silas
Guest
Hey now, guy. Just because I say that you've lied and looked in lust and is a bad person, dont mean that I judged you. Dude, everyone has done that - everyone is bad! Take the Truth aside, take Jesus who is the truth aside, and look at the philosophers throughout time. There has never been a perfound thinker, a great philosopher, an educated guru, etc., who has considered man to be good. This truth is axiomatic, its not judging. You know, its so sad how far we've come. We no longer call bad bad. Instead, we say now, "I am human," because its now the norm to lie and lust and be anything other than morally perfect. But, isnt this what the bible said will take place? Yes, it is. Yet, ths is still so surreal to me. Its like watching a movie. Well, all that said, if you dont admit your guilt, you wont find forgivess by God who calls us evil apart from Christ.
so confused you always say humans are sinful, hateful and immoral...that that is the nature of humans...now you think otherwise?
Silas said:
more confused...take the truth aside??
S
Silas
Guest
wil
so confused you always say humans are sinful, hateful and immoral...that that is the nature of humans...now you think otherwise?
Who said I think otherwise? Mankind is bad. We're evil apart from Christ and God's grace. If left to ourselves, we'd all see how wicked we are. Thank God he doesnt allow us to be as evil as we could be!
more confused...take the truth aside??[/quote]
My bad! I wrote as if I were speaking audably, and so it didnt make much sense. I should have said something like this: "Notwithstanding the truth, namely Jesus, and aside from us innately knowing that He is truth personified, there has never been...blah blah blah."
so confused you always say humans are sinful, hateful and immoral...that that is the nature of humans...now you think otherwise?Who said I think otherwise? Mankind is bad. We're evil apart from Christ and God's grace. If left to ourselves, we'd all see how wicked we are. Thank God he doesnt allow us to be as evil as we could be!
more confused...take the truth aside??[/quote]My bad! I wrote as if I were speaking audably, and so it didnt make much sense. I should have said something like this: "Notwithstanding the truth, namely Jesus, and aside from us innately knowing that He is truth personified, there has never been...blah blah blah."
You did.
In this statement you indicated it was wrong to call ourselves human as bad, and that it is now the norm to lie and lust...but everywhere else you claim this IS human ever since the fall, you indicate we can't be morally perfect.Silas said:
So again, still yet confused...Jesus is truth...we set that aside...yet theSilas said:
Yet these Philosophers...gurus you say agree with your version of the truth...that man is inherently evil.Silas said:
I say G-d, Jesus, and many philospophers....gurus see us as inherently good. It depends who is doing the picking and choosing...of expert witnesses...and of scripture....as you indicated scripture can be twisted any way one wants it to be.
Star Sarellia
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Will it count? I remember being told once that we are meant to be fearful of God's wrath.. so I suppose fear could be a good thing for some people.
It isn't for me however. I get angry at the emotion of fear and tempt it. (I can see myself going to an early grave with that one) So for me.. I had to remove the fear before I could love God.
On a side note.. I thought it was Satan who was evil.. I thought humans were meant to be the victims in the War between God and Satan.
It isn't for me however. I get angry at the emotion of fear and tempt it. (I can see myself going to an early grave with that one) So for me.. I had to remove the fear before I could love God.
On a side note.. I thought it was Satan who was evil.. I thought humans were meant to be the victims in the War between God and Satan.
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S
Silas
Guest
wil
You did.
No I didnt.
In this statement you indicated it was wrong to call ourselves human as bad, and that it is now the norm to lie and lust...but everywhere else you claim this IS human ever since the fall, you indicate we can't be morally perfect.
LOL! I said it is the norm for us to say that we are "human" instead of saying the truth and admitting to being bad. I didnt say what you think. Reread what I wrote and read slow. I'll read too...probably?
So again, still yet confused...Jesus is truth...we set that aside...yet the Yet these Philosophers...gurus you say agree with your version of the truth...that man is inherently evil.
Yes, Jesus is the truth. And yes, there has never been a great thinker who claimed mankind was good. That however, doesnt mean that they all were Christians. In fact, most werent. By the way, there arent different versions of the truth. Truth by very defination is absolute. Therefore, truth cannot be relative. Preceptions may be so, but truth isnt. One cannot affairm that Jesus is the only way and then adhere to the five pillars of Islam, for example. That, homey, is a gross misviolation of the law of noncontradiction.
I say G-d, Jesus, and many philospophers....gurus see us as inherently good. It depends who is doing the picking and choosing...of expert witnesses...and of scripture....as you indicated scripture can be twisted any way one wants it to be.
Yeah, I thought that was pretty funny. I really hate when people twist scripture though. Let me ask you a question through. How do you understand Jesus' words in Math 7:11..."You being evil know how to give good gifts?"
You did.
No I didnt.
In this statement you indicated it was wrong to call ourselves human as bad, and that it is now the norm to lie and lust...but everywhere else you claim this IS human ever since the fall, you indicate we can't be morally perfect.
LOL! I said it is the norm for us to say that we are "human" instead of saying the truth and admitting to being bad. I didnt say what you think. Reread what I wrote and read slow. I'll read too...probably?
So again, still yet confused...Jesus is truth...we set that aside...yet the Yet these Philosophers...gurus you say agree with your version of the truth...that man is inherently evil.
Yes, Jesus is the truth. And yes, there has never been a great thinker who claimed mankind was good. That however, doesnt mean that they all were Christians. In fact, most werent. By the way, there arent different versions of the truth. Truth by very defination is absolute. Therefore, truth cannot be relative. Preceptions may be so, but truth isnt. One cannot affairm that Jesus is the only way and then adhere to the five pillars of Islam, for example. That, homey, is a gross misviolation of the law of noncontradiction.
I say G-d, Jesus, and many philospophers....gurus see us as inherently good. It depends who is doing the picking and choosing...of expert witnesses...and of scripture....as you indicated scripture can be twisted any way one wants it to be.
Yeah, I thought that was pretty funny. I really hate when people twist scripture though. Let me ask you a question through. How do you understand Jesus' words in Math 7:11..."You being evil know how to give good gifts?"
Hot or Cold, God can work with either in a man. Rough or refined, no work of God (man) is too polished or too coarse that He cannot perfect His work.
If one already loves God and is striving for more, God works with him. If one is afraid of God and is striving for more, God works with him.
It does not matter, how one thinks of God, as long as one is thinking of God, then the door is at least partially open for God to work through.
I think the wonder of God is, that He'll never force the door open to anyone's heart, nor will He try to open it wider than it already is. He let's man open the door when he is ready.
You say, "What if I'm afraid of Hell?" Then God's reply is an invite to look to Him.
So, I'd say, yes, it counts.
v/r
Joshua
So you hate when folks twist yet in the same breath you begin your twisting? What version are you reading that doesn't start that sentence with "If"?
It is not a statement but a supposition and is not even half of that line. The evil here is not a statement of evil, but a contemplation of since man is less than perfect yet provides for his children (wouldn't provide a snake instead of fish, a rock instead of bread) it is all an example of the difference between man and G-d and that G-d will give us what we ask for.
That's even easier to answer than the first one about Jacob and Esua.
That which is not perfect, is flawed hence evil (absent of perfection). It doesn't mean we do not have any degree of good in us, merely that we fall way short of God's plan of perfection. We are out of balance, but even so we know to give what good we can to others (as we understand it). This particular scripture identifies what we do for our children I believe...
If the Human father and child is an imperfect simily (example), of the relationship between the Father and us, what Jesus is saying that, "if in your flawed state you know enough to provide for your children, how much better the Father provides for you..."
v/r
Joshua