You'd have to be mad to think it.

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Thomas, Mar 12, 2007.

  1. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Quahom's 'Christianity 101' thread is ticking away in the back of my mind, and leapt to the fore when I read the following, discussing 'the most clearly distinctive doctrine of Christianity,' the author wrote:

    "It is also the most astounding thought possible, that the Creator of the universe should for any reason wish to become a creature in his own creation, and share human life as a baby, as a growing boy, and as an adult man, even accepting a criminal's death."

    So I throw it out there ...

    Could He? Would He? ... Did He?


    Thomas
     
  2. Silas

    Silas New Member

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    What you said reminds me of a song called "the humilty of Christ" where the artist speaks about the Creator becoming a man to die in place of mankind. Timothy Brindle, the person who does the song, says: "Let me ask you if you seem confused with this, God passed through His creatures uterus." I thought that was cool! Anyway, in responce to your questions: "Could He?" Certianly. God can do anything He wants. "Would He?" Again. God can do anything He wants. "Did He?" This is the question that you should ask, I feel. According to scripture He did. Why? For two main reasons: To be glorified in His forgiveness of men and because He loves us. God is revealing Himself in totality to all of His creation. The same God who in Justice and wrath, justly condemned the fallen angels for their sins, shows Mercy and Grace to other sinners, namely mankind, by offering Himself as their perfect sacrifice.

    Here's the song if you want to hear it.
     
  3. Dor

    Dor Bible Thumper

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    Actually Thomas you just described the greatest act of love that has ever occured.
     
  4. Silas

    Silas New Member

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    Amen! :D
     
  5. Prober

    Prober Give Us This Day...

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    Yes, Yes He did! Thanks G-d!
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    D'you know Silas, when I read your name as the first post on this thread, I thought, 'Oh Lord, we're gonna clash again!'

    But we ain't! Did you read my comment re a post of yours, along the lines of 'your God frightens me'?

    Well I read this:
    To me, in light of recent discussions, that's coming from a different place ... I like that place ... I like you ... And if it's from the same place, then I've been reading you wrong. Mea culpa.

    In His Peace,

    Thomas
     
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    And do you ever ... and I bet you do ... in some quiet moment, hear the voice in your head that says "this can't be so ... it's just too good to be true" ... and then the voice in your heart that replies "But it is ... and yes it is" ...

    ... but co'mon guys ... we don't want a Christian glee-club here, we'll put the others off!

    Thomas
     
  8. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    I dunno, if you're God you can indulge in all manner of astounding things I suppose. You don't think God maybe did it for his own pleasure? I mean, It's not so strange to think that God would want to play with and in his creation; jump into the the game he made- so to speak. And it also isn't that surprising that he would want to experience human death, even a horrible death. Sure it would hurt, but it isn't as if he dies for good, and it's a hell of an experience from his point of view.

    Chris
     
  9. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

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    Ok, someone throw this dog a bone... how do each of you explain just these two verses in your beliefs:

    John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

    John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Is the gospel of John corrupt? Are my eyes evil? Should I gouge them out so that I might see it differently? Bad translation? Am I missing the required number of years of ritual programming?
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    If the contemplation is serious...what is it like...what can it be kin to?

    Don't let your emotions get the best of you...contemplate...not my question, but yours.

    A. We believe in the trinity...G-d, Jesus, Holy Spirit.

    B. So did all of G-d come to earth, or G-d's son, or a portion, or a hologram...ie a portion that is both a piece but also all of the whole..

    C. So what was the cost...umm gonna spend 33 years...exactly what is that to eternity..a nanosecond? Gonna preach and teach, do some miracles, fulfill some prophecy that by the way...I set up a millenia ago...get this physical body that can't be hurt, beat up, killed, and resurrect it, only to return...

    So what would be our equivilant?? Trimming our hair? Cutting our nails? Piercing our ears?

    What would be the equivilant to G-d sending Jesus down? Litterally for such a short time it can't be percieved in comparision to our life on earth and eternity...litterally compared to the pain and suffering of the world...worlds..galaxies...life in this universe and how many more...how much did Jesus suffer?? How much did G-d suffer through Jesus?

    Was it mad, or a no brainer?
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi cyberpi -

    It is axiomatic of any hermeneutical system or structure that the whole is transmitted in the whole, and parts in parts, and that the parts themselves derive their meaning from the whole into which they are knit – so the meaning of any part in particular can be found, or emerges, from the whole.

    Contemplation of Scripture, as a whole, will provide the answer.

    +++

    John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
    That is 'explained' in the Mystery of the Trinity.
    cf, for example, 'Trinity higher than being' in "The Mystical Theology" of Dionysius the Areopagite.

    John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
    That is 'explained' in the Mystery of the Incarnation.
    cf "The distinction between natures was never abolished in their union"
    as declared by the Council of Chalcedon.

    "Be transformed by the renewal of your nous
    St Paul advised the Church in Rome (Romans 12:2)

    This from Christian Metaphysics: Trinity, Incarnation and Creation:
    "At the heart of Christianity stand two mysteries: the Trinity and the Incarnation. The question (for the metaphysician) is this: do these two mysteries manifest some deeper reality or do they themselves comprise the ne plus ultra of metaphysics?"

    "By contrast I make no such restriction on the content of metaphysics. Indeed, to exclude the Trinity from metaphysics is in some important sense to falsify reality from the beginning."

    Essay in full available on The Veil

    +++

    As I wrote to someone recently, it is somewhat of a grand assumption to think that anything posted here (and no offence to any postee is inferred) can or does 'threaten' either Christian faith or Christian doctrine.

    We've had some of the finest philosophical minds of the last 2,000 years working on the case (and equally some of the finest minds against us) with a rigour and a tenacity that is a marvel of the method (Aquinas, for example, still stands as a model).

    We are a robust doctrine, if not bulletproof.

    For every Bultmann who would tear it all down, is a Benoit who reveals the fallacy of his argument, a von Balthasar who unveils a new and magisterial beauty ... for every Rahner who renders the whole thing complex and inpenetrable, there is the simple lucidity of a Ratzinger ...

    ... and if I should appear, at times, sentimental, emotive and naive, please do not be mistaken, I'm just letting my proverbial hair down (I am in fact as bald as a coot) ... as an anam cara of mine observed, 'we are not robots.'

    Thomas
     
  12. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    As many believe, (which is the way I would see it.) Christ is the son of god, he is not god…. Could he send his son? Of course. Would he? He did, didn’t he? I have just recently (very recently) understood forgiveness. It is a awesome thing… I won’t even bother to try and explain it… Because I may have a grasp and understanding of forgiveness… But to describe it, is far beyond my skill, so I wont.

    He was giving you, everyone forgiveness… -ANOTHER- chance. On such a scale you may not have even known that you needed forgiveness.. But not even having to ask for it, it is yours…. ;/ Taking the account from the bible, (if true) that would be the biggest showing of love and sacrifice ever, and you will never see it on such a scale ever again.
     
  13. Dondi

    Dondi Active Member

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    How profound, 17th. Thanks for sharing that.
     
  14. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Profound?

    Thanks for reading.
     
  15. Dondi

    Dondi Active Member

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    Profound - penetrating or entering deeply into subjects of thought or knowledge; having deep insight or understanding: a profound thinker.
     
  16. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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  17. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    Down the years I have read a number of allegorical stories, (most in the science fiction genre), that dedicate themselves to just this question. My lamentable memory prevents me from naming any titles or authors, most if not all were read in anthologies, but it was always a particular type of story I enjoyed.

    One of them stands out in my mind because in it God is being hunted by our decendents here on Earth. The story suggests that we have evolved into control freaks that rule the universe and insist everything is in its correct place, like some crazy houseproud woman measuring the distance between her mantelpiece ornaments. Anyhow Earth is in this story uninhabited and preserved as a museum object, and it is where God is trying to hide because man wants to put him in his own exhibition space elsewhere. The moral of the story being that if the powers that be, politicaly, did find God they would want complete control over access to Him.

    I think this story is as pertinent today as it always has been and probably always will be. The power hungry are faithless, their only God is themselves, and they have no moral dilema about hijacking the concept of God to their own ends.

    TE
     

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