Is Christianity a Negative Religion?

Discussion in 'Comparative Studies' started by lunamoth, Apr 9, 2007.

  1. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2007
    Messages:
    3,807
    Likes Received:
    61
    Quahom1,

    I appreciate your taking the time to clarify your position.

    "I thought I was answering a question you had about sin and children...."

    --> I asked no such question. I am sorry if my declaration sounded like a question.

    "...a child is not accountable until they know right from wrong..."

    --> "...we are all born in sin..." "..in sin did my mother conceive me." I see these statements as containing a need for accountablilty, even if Christians do not.

    "Christians are not that calloused to condemn the innocent..."

    --> "...we are all born in sin..." "..in sin did my mother conceive me."

    "...it wouldn't be, well, Christian!"

    --> Which is why I am not a Christian. Please do not take offense. It appears Luna and Selbora are genuinely interested in why I am not a Christian, which is the only reason I am making these posts. No belittling intended.
     
  2. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Messages:
    9,906
    Likes Received:
    5
    There are rewards and consequences for every action under the sun. Eve, allegedly turned away from God, her Maker (ignored His warning), and alligned with the deceiver. Then, she in her fear of being outcast and alone, beguiled her husband to violate God's law as well. In short, Adam chose his mate over his God (deliberately). There are many thoughts on why (the primary of which is he identified with his own flesh more than with God).

    Me being a father, do not do well with my children turning their backs on me. There is a price to pay for such insulance. And it isn't the act, but the thinking behind the act. Furthermore, I would be remiss in my duties as a parent, if I did nothing about the rebelliousness of my children.

    There is a mythos of the first woman being Lilith, who refused to submit to her husband. In short she rebelled and fled. If true, then the second woman Eve, needed a stern lesson (apparently), to remind her of the error of her ways, towards her Maker. As did her husband, who had to break a sweat just to keep his family fed.

    Unfortunately it appears that the "lesson" is lost on us at large, until we are well into life, and wisdom of experience, and hard knocks...

    v/r

    Joshua
     
  3. InLove

    InLove at peace

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    2
    Psalm 51 is beautiful. The whole chapter. I might look at these passages and determine that David was indeed born into a "broken world". Nowhere in there do I read that God had any desire to condemn him to Hell for eternity from the day he was born into a broken plane of existence.

    More 2c. :)
     
  4. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Messages:
    9,906
    Likes Received:
    5
    That's quite fine with me. I personally cannot see those who do not know any better, to be condemned. Maybe because in my law enforcement experiences I know that even human law (US) will not condemn anyone for a wrong unless three criteria are met:

    1. Must have the means

    2. Must have the capacity

    3. Must have intent

    That came from Noahidic law (which pre-dates the 10 commandments and any Christian writings...).

    A child, lacks the nature of all three, hence is within God's grace.

    Once the concept of "guile" is demonstrated by a child...then I think grace is removed from the picture.

    Even I being a "sinner" recognize that and whom that are without the "sin" I possess...:eek:

    v/r

    Joshua
     
  5. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2007
    Messages:
    3,807
    Likes Received:
    61
    -oOo-

    Quahom1

    You said,

    "I would be remiss in my duties as a parent, if I did nothing about the rebelliousness of my children."

    --> I absolutely agree. And, again, since this is a thread on why I am not a Christian, I repeat that I see unfairness and escaping from responsibility in Christianity. These factors have driven me away from Christianity.

    Inlove,

    You said,

    "Nowhere in there do I read that God had any desire to condemn him to Hell for eternity..."

    --> Which is why I believe in Hell, but not for Eternity. Theosophists will burn in just as painful a fire as Christian sinners. (I can't wait for Thomas to get a hold of that. Ha.) An Eternal Hell turns me away from Christianity.
     
  6. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2007
    Messages:
    3,807
    Likes Received:
    61
    Quahom1,

    "means ... capacity ... intent...."

    --> I see "born in sin" as contrary to these three ideas.

    "A child, lacks the nature of all three, hence is within God's grace."

    --> I just do not see how a child can be born in sin and in grace. My belief system requires one or the other.
     
  7. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Messages:
    9,906
    Likes Received:
    5
    Re: -oOo-

    Ahh! Now I think I understand where you are coming from! (had a V8) lol :D

    How can a Christian devoid themselves of their sins, just by claiming Christianity as their faith???!!! As sin is a sin, and all who sin fall short (except for Christians)???

    Am I close?
     
  8. InLove

    InLove at peace

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hey Nick :)

    I think (I may have overlooked something) that Selbora also expressed an interest in some more Orthodox views of Chrisitianity. Just as you and I mine different meanings from Biblical literature, we also read Thomas in a different light. I really think he is quite often misunderstood! A lot more open-minded than is often given due. Anyway, that is my peacemaking effort for the day. Gotta go save a rosebush. :)

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  9. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Messages:
    9,906
    Likes Received:
    5
    Born in sin, covered in grace...the "sin" is passed on to him/her by the parents. (I liken it to a defect that can manifest itself, if left untended for too long). At some point, the child will understand and deliberately take the sin on as their own.

    It is NOT a deliberate sin that the child caused, or even thought of. Like a gene that is awry, it is simply there and the child will have to deal with it (the handicap). Either he/she overcomes it, or is taken in by it...but not immediately...

    (I really like this dialogue Nick).
     
  10. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Messages:
    9,906
    Likes Received:
    5
    Mix lime in the dirt...(trust me)
     
  11. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2007
    Messages:
    3,807
    Likes Received:
    61
    "How can a Christian devoid themselves of their sins, just by claiming Christianity as their faith???!!! As sin is a sin, and all who sin fall short (except for Christians)??? Am I close?"

    --> Close! Allow me to preface this with a gassho of good will and inter-understanding when I say,

    I do not see how a Christian (or anyone else) can devoid themselves of their sins by means of a religious ritual (ritual is not really what I mean, but it is the best word that comes to mind right now.) All who sin do not fall short, but they will (in my belief system) get a chance to make up for each and every sin, no matter how long it takes.

    (I hope I am not confusing you. I think we are are on the same wavelength of understanding. How do you see it so far?)
     
  12. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2007
    Messages:
    3,807
    Likes Received:
    61
    InLove,

    If I have misinterpreted Selbora post, I apologize.
     
  13. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Messages:
    9,906
    Likes Received:
    5
    Well the color spectrum is about right, refining the wavelengths themselves might take some synchronizing...(I'm thinking about what you said). :D
     
  14. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2007
    Messages:
    3,807
    Likes Received:
    61
    Qualhom1,

    Lunch time. I'll be back.

    (I really like this dialogue too).
     
  15. InLove

    InLove at peace

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    2
    No apology necessary, Nick. :) Grabbing the lime stuff and donning the gardening gloves...
     
  16. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Messages:
    9,906
    Likes Received:
    5

    Watch out for the water cress and bamboo shoots (they stick in the throat...at least for me) :eek:

    (Seal Beach 1995-1998) :D
     
  17. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2007
    Messages:
    3,807
    Likes Received:
    61
    InLove,

    You use lime to save a rosebush?

    Quahom1,

    Our philosophies are closer than they may seem. It is just that, when a baby is born for their first incarnation (I believe in reincarnation) I see the baby as pure and sinless. Sure, little kids are rambuncious and break things, but I see them as sinless. It may seem like a small point, but it is enough to make me a non-Christian.

    Here is another way our philosophies are closer than they seem. You see Adam and Eve getting thrown out of the Garden of Eden in disgrace. I see billions of tiny sparks of Light floating down from "Heaven" like soft flower petals, and "God" happy to see them on their way, like any parent who experiences that empty-nest feeling. "God" watches them stub their toes, but it only a natural part of the experience.

    The funny thing is, you and I are talking about the exact same event!

    Have you ever tried Japanese ravioli called gyoza? Excellent!
     
  18. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Messages:
    9,906
    Likes Received:
    5
    Roses thrive in (ph negative) soil...

    Indeed children are sinless...until the first time they challenge their parents' rightful authority (deliberately) I don't mean an out of control parent... And that, my friend is the first time a child receives a punishment or discipline (because they demonstrate knowledge of right from wrong, and choose wrong...and it is not the act itself, but the thinking behind the act).

    I think we are talking about the same thing as well...it's the semantics we are trying to hurdle over...:D
     
  19. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Messages:
    9,906
    Likes Received:
    5
    I got a story:

    When my oldest son was five, he came home from a friend's house nearly in tears. It took me awhile to get him to tell me why he was so upset.

    "Ronny's dad swore at him and hit him with a belt. I don't know why..."

    It wasn't what "Ronny's Dad" did that bothered him, as much as his concern about what I would do in anger...

    I promised my son right there and then, that I would NEVER swear "at" him, nor strike him in anger. And I would watch over them and protect them whatever the cost. And I kept my word. But one day when my oldest was 18, my 17 year old came in drunk (and had driven the car home, after blowing up the battery), and I was very angry (because I told them if they wanted to drink, I would let them try it at home, where I could watch and worry over them, but they were not to go drinking out away from home), and I was worried sick over them hurting self or others...

    Bottom line is I (in absolute righteous anger), wondered what the F he thought he was doing.

    My oldest came flying down the stairs, right inches from my face and bellowed "you promised you would never swear at us!"

    I pushed him back (no doubt I was taking charge of my house and home from an Irate 18 year old), and quietly said "I didn't swear "AT" anyone. But I'll be damned if I'm going to let my children do as they please, and think there are no consequences...I made a promise to you two, and you two made a promise to me...who has broken their promise? Me?

    Blake dropped his gaze, and said "I'd like to put Ryan to bed now". I agreed, and nothing was said for the next two days (while Ryan got over his hangover).

    When he finally woke up, we talked. The first thing I said was that it doesn't take two days for most folk to get over a night binge, unless there is a problem physically with one's body to metabilize alcohol...

    Then, I pointed out that a promise was broken, and it wasn't by me. But there were consequences that must be met out.

    I walked out of Ryan's bedroom and outside, and there stood Blake with tears in his eyes. "Is that what it means to be a dad?"

    "Some times son, whether we like it or not."

    "Ok, I think I understand."

    "Not yet, but you will...I promise..." :eek:

    God I think is like that too. And it hurts Him more than we realize at the time.

    v/r

    Joshua
     
  20. Selbora

    Selbora New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Unfortunately I have not had a chance to read all of the replies. I must say this though, I can never be a part of any religion that teaches original sin. My infant son passed away around Christmas 2005. He died in a Catholic hospital and never recieved a formal Baptism. I ask God daily that my son be the first of my family to great me in Heaven and I have no doubt this prayer will be answered. I have since given birth to a healthy baby girl. She is a true miracle. We both almost passed away during childbirth but obviously we had an angel watching over us. Both of my children are without blemish! That is why this particular subject interest me so. As far as Christianity as a whole is concerned, I have many other troubles.
    I do apprieciate all of the replies and will answer any details as soon as I have a moment.
     

Share This Page