Why do you think I am oppressed?

Discussion in 'Comparative Studies' started by Muslimwoman, Apr 16, 2007.

  1. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    43
    as salaam aleykum

    I keep coming across posts that suggest I am oppressed and I have no idea why. Please can you be honest and explain this to me. I do accept that some Muslim women are forced to wear clothing and behave in ways that would be classed as oppression but these things are not in the Quran, it is oppression by men, not by Islam.

    Please discuss, I would really like to hear your views and perhaps if you listen to mine we can rid ourselves of a few misconceptions.

    I wear hijab (a headscarf that covers my hair) and abaya (basically a long loose dress to cover the shape of my body. Why is this a problem for some people?

    Salaam

    My apologies if this is the wrong place to post this but I thought if I posted in the Islam board then mainly Muslims would read it - sort of defeats the purpose.
     
  2. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2007
    Messages:
    3,774
    Likes Received:
    48
    Muslimwoman,

    You said,

    "...it is oppression by men, not by Islam."

    --> That sounds like oppression to me.

    Have you seen the movie Not Without My Daughter?

    Not Without my Daughter

    Anybody who sees this movie will consider Muslim women to be oppressed.

    Was this a factual description of the events?
     
  3. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    43
    Sorry Nick it is 6am here and I have been on the net all night, so am probably not awake enough to explain myself properly. Obviously I can only tell you my own views and experiences of living in the middle east, so would not pretend that I speak for all Muslim women.

    What I was trying to say is that in some places women are clearly oppressed, no-one can deny that but this is due to tradition rather than the teachings of Islam. I shall give one example, in Saudi women are not allowed to drive. Why? There is nothing in the Quran about women not riding donkeys or camels (the normal mode of transport in that era). So where did they get this from? It is also true to say that non Muslim women in many cultures are also oppressed - do 2 wrongs make a right NO but why does it always seem that only Muslim women wear this label.

    My issue is that people look at my hijab and think, or sometimes say, oppressed. This suggests to me that people believe that the oppression is generated by our religion, which it is not.

    As for the film I have not seen it but I used your link and read what is there about it. I have not lived in Iran so cannot comment specifically about life for women there. We can only imagine what it would be like to live in a country that suddenly came under Sharia law (I admit I would not want to live there). I can make a few general points though.

    1. A husband is not permitted to force his nonMuslim wife to convert. The difficulty comes when children are born to a Muslim father and non Muslim mother. As Muslims we believe that children take the religion of the father. Shariah law also sets out which parent a child should be with in case of divorce. So where a western woman has married an Arabic Muslim, has a child, divorces and then wants to take the child back to the west, this usually results in a terrible mess.

    2. The action of this man lying to his wife and basically trapping her into life in an Islamic country goes against many teachings of Islam. Lying, respect for your wife, etc, etc. When I first moved to my husbands home town he visited the mosque to speak to a sheikh about marriage, my poor husband received a 3 hour lecture (I am not exaggerating) on treatment of the wife. This included telling him to employ someone to cook and clean for me and if he could not afford to then he should do these things himself. That is how highly Islam respects women. Of course the tradition is another matter and my husband couldn't tell you where the kitchen is, how to switch the washing machine on or what washing up liquid is for. :D But I am happy with that, I like to look after the home.

    3. It is certainly true that Arabic Muslim men change when they return to their own town. This is again due to tradition, they are brought up in a certain way and upon returning home do tend to 'revert to type'. But surely that can be said for everyone. Having said this Arabic husbands are so often portrayed as wife beaters and I am yet to see this with my own eyes. The other one is polygamy, yes Islam allows a man to have 4 wives under strict conditions but again I am yet to meet anyone who actually has 2 wives let alone 4. The only Muslims I have spoken to that are in polygamous marriages are living in Canada and the USA - a bit wierd.

    4. When I meet with western people they always speak as though they want to 'free' the poor Arabic Muslim women. I admit I was one of them at first (even though I was a Muslim). What I actually found is that they have a great deal of choice (certainly in the Muslim countries I have visited) and have no desire to be 'free'. They live as they do (dress, staying in the home, etc) to submit to Allah, it has nothing to do with their husband or fathers wishes.

    5. Yes the film is right about covering your hair if a friend of your husband comes to your home - if the woman is Muslim. But this modesty is also for men. If I have a friend visit and my husband is in the house wearing shorts then he must go and dress in something more modest. It is often not mentioned that a lot of the issues which 'oppress' Muslim women are also 'oppressing' Muslim men. I cannot be alone with a man I am not married or related to. Same goes for my husband with women. The upside of this is that suspicion doesn't enter our heads and jealousy is not an issue.

    I admit the way women in Saudi are treated breaks my heart. I read a saudi newspaper article which said that 15 girls at a school died in a fire because when they tried to get out of the burning building the religious police beat them with sticks until they went back in - because they were not dressed properly. Obviously there is nothing in Islam that would allow such treatment under any circumstances, this is just blatant oppression and stupidity.

    It is the same as terrorism, people look at Muslims and words like terrorist and oppressed spring to mind. I find this so sad, I agree it is caused by 'Muslims' but they are misguided and using Islam as an excuse for behaving in a reprehensible manner. But why tar everyone with the same brush?

    Salaam
     
  4. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    9,437
    Likes Received:
    3

    It is your faith, your way of life... It is as honourable as the Samurai's uniform; it is as noble as the King in Europe’s uniform is. It is yours. I am glad that you wish to come forth and explain what maybe misunderstood... Just as long as you do not feel that, it is something you HAVE to do. If that makes sense to you? I think it is great that you keep the ways of your culture and religion.. At times in places such as England, or places where for quite a time your ways of life have been alien, I can believe it must be quite a daunting thing.

    Why is there a problem with you wearing your hijab? There isn’t. But some people can be small minded… After all, we are only human. Change can be a scary thing to most of us, and of course with your religion now spreading and being in places as I said before it was an alien way of life, can cause negativity. Education and understanding… Is all that is really needed.

    And also you say of people thinking that the woman in your faith is oppressed…. “Ooooh if that was me, I wouldn’t stand for that!!!” I guess they don’t tend to remember free choice. If that wasn’t what you wished, I am sure you too wouldn’t stand for “that”. But it is your free choice, and you are clearly not oppressed.
     
  5. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2005
    Messages:
    5,826
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi there Muslimwoman :)

    It generalisation....as ever.
    I know I am so very often guilty of it. As you express so well, there is a lot of oppression of womankind under the banner of Islam and when there is 'a lot' of anything you have a generalisation. Its just the way things work.

    I personaly do not find the attire of what I deem Moslem women, (and I can only know a woman is Moslem from her clothing), as offensive or as a symbol of her oppession. Rather I find it frustrating as middle eastern women are often physicly very attractive and I am thus denied the pleasure of seeing them in their full glory. This is not lust, this is appreciation of beauty, (the lust usually follows about a nano-second later :p).
    Joking aside, I think this forms the root of what western men find offensive, they are denied their eye candy and like the spoiled children all you women know us to be, we get upset by that.
    Western women may get upset because it represents a regressive reminder of what they have spent such a long time battling against, male oppression.
    So like it or not your hijab and your abaya are to many men symbols of your rejection of them as suitable sexual partners and when you start playing with mens freudian ego's then you can only expect some rather hostile exchanges.
    This may not be politicaly correct, I dont know, and I dont care. But I think there is more than a grain of truth in it.

    Kind regards

    Tao
     
  6. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    43
    17th Angel. Thank you for your kind words. I in no way feel that I HAVE to come forward. I began the thread because I want people to understand why I choose to dress this way, what it means for me and how comments about oppression affect me. I wanted to give people the opportunity to question why I dress this way and hopefully clear up a few misconceptions.

    One post I found referred to Muslim women dressing as though they are one big private part and I want to explain to people that I think of myself as one big private part. My faith is based upon modisty and it makes me so happy to cover myself, I am proud that I dress and live in a modest manner.

    Tao. Thankyou for your honest reply. You are so right, it is generalisation and I do understand why. I hope I can, through this thread, show people that the oppression of women under the banner of Islam is in fact nothing to do with the religion but is due to ignorant men wanting to keep women as underdogs.

    You state it so perfectly "you are denied the pleasure of seeing them in their full glory" - it is so nice to know our dress works, that is the whole point of course. I often discuss with other Muslim women whether we are making the problem worse by the way we dress. When we go to the beach our husbands look at the western women in bikini's (they are men so of course they do) but they have a look then look away. However, if a beautiful woman in Muslim dress walks past our husbands get whiplash looking. Isn't it the case that if something is just 'out there' to be looked at it is less attractive than the imagination trying to work out what is under all that black material? So here is my dilemma, I don't want men to look and think of me in that way but I can't walk around in a bikini.

    One of the things I was hoping for, when I began this thread, was to explain to people that we choose to dress this way - that it is not because our 'men' tell us to and therefore oppress us. I sometimes wear jeans and a long blouse (to my knees), so my husband bought me a beautiful italian blouse and halter neck top for underneath. He has been so offended because I will not wear it - the material is quite thin so you can see the shape of my arms and body when the light hits it. My husband (a born Muslim) doesn't see what the problem is. I say this as an example of my own choice in how I dress.

    I apologise to all mens freudian ego's but live with it. I am for my husbands eyes only.


    Can I ask a question of men please. How do you feel when your wife/girlfriend goes out dressed sexily and other men look at her with lust?

    Salaam
     
  7. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2005
    Messages:
    5,826
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Muslimwoman,



    For me it depends on the level of security and trust within the relationship. In a relationship that is strong and secure then it can be flattering. In a relationship that is failing or difficult it can cause jealousy and anger. Men are always looking at women and a man will pay little attention to the man but a lot to his partners reactions, unless his eyes are busy checking out another woman.
    Funnily enough in a series of experiments it has been shown that most women also look at the other women. If 2 couples pass each other the 2 women each have 2 sets of eyes looking at them and the men are unwatched. It seems that women tend to assess for risk and men for advantage. This is completely animalistic behaviour, unconcious and virtually irrepressible.

    I lived 5 years in rural Greece in my youth. Not generaly recognised but even at that time in that area arranged marraiges were the norm. The sex that was most determined to hold on to that tradition was not the men but the mothers and grandmothers. I have heard from other Moslem women that it is they who choose to wear concealing clothing as you do. That is your choice and I respect it of course. But there are many countries now where there is simply no choice for a woman... and further.. it would be other women that would be most outraged/ first to act against a women who defied this convention. Which returns us to the above paragraph.

    It is a hugely complicated issue once you start and though the argument can be made that we in the west give into animalistic urges and displays it can also be argued that forbidding/hiding of such displays is just another facet of, or a very closely related set of animalistic behaviour too. But thats a subject in itself.

    Kind regards

    TE
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    20,307
    Likes Received:
    1,197
    Now if he looks at her and smiles no big deal...now lusting is another story...of course we men know how we are.

    The one that gets me is the teenage girls with words on their pants...to me they are basically saying, 'look at my butt'. And then the words they are willing to print!

    But your description of men looking at women fully covered longer and harder than scantilly clad...that is the norm here in the states as well. Sure their are gawkers at topless beaches where women wear thongs...but in the middle of the winter when a woman walks down the street showing a little calf, or a slit up the side of her skirt...the men's minds wander...

    Just like there is less sexual tension at a nude beach then a regular beach...

    But back to your original question, why do we feel you are oppressed and forced to cover yourself? Because that is what we've learned, and what we've learned is from people who often don't know what they are talking about.
     
  9. Prober

    Prober Give Us This Day...

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,258
    Likes Received:
    0
    My wife and I believe in dressing simply and plainly (within reason). As far as I can tell, other people do not look at us with lust. The exception might be the beach.

    When I see a woman covered, I admire her discretion and the gift she is giving to her husband. I would go far out of my way not to dishonor her as that is the way I would want my wife to be treated.

    I've always thought covering is a great way to keep intimacy and desire alive in a relationship. Imagine, your wife is the only woman you've ever seen undressed!

    Best regards,
    Mark
     
  10. InLove

    InLove at peace

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    2
    Prober--thank you. This is the way my husband and I relate as well. We think it is a beautiful way to honor and love one another.

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  11. Prober

    Prober Give Us This Day...

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,258
    Likes Received:
    0
    You are welcome!:)
     
  12. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    43
    As salaam aleykum Prober

    I loved your post, what respect, what understanding. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.

    Salaam
     
  13. Prober

    Prober Give Us This Day...

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,258
    Likes Received:
    0
    Walaikum salaam!

    You're welcome and thank you.

    Best regards,
    Mark
     
  14. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    43
    Good comment Wil, hopefully with more communication people will see that what they have learned is often wrong.

    It is my experience that Muslim men are less concerned if their wife nips out for a pint of milk without their hijab than the women are. Sometimes, if my mind is on other things, I just forget and head for the door without my hijab and my husband doesn't notice, my females in law are another matter - they almost have a heart attack. It is true that Muslim women are far more strict about other womens dress than men are.

    Salaam
     
  15. Francis king

    Francis king New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,318
    Likes Received:
    0
    lol... we are not oppressed, we openly accept that being forced by society to cover ourselves lest we inspire men to lustful thoughts is the right thing to do... honestly...

    as a woman I find it disgraceful that women would readily succumb to a cultural convention which means that they are, by design, such sinful objects. What is so bad about not covering your head? What is so bad about exposing your shoulders, or your legs? Can men not control their lust? Can we not make men who cannot control their lust wear very dark sunglasses instead? Why not? Because men make the rules in Arabic societies, and women are just trophy housewives who must be good in bed while pretending to be virgins in the town square. Do muslim women tidy their bikini lines, tint their hair, pluck their eyebrows? Yes, they do, you can see their painted toenails peeping out from under their skirts. So, they are just as concerned about their appearances and fashion and nice knickers as is every other woman on the planet. I have been insulted now on a few occasions by muslim men in my area who think that a woman who opens the top button of her blouse is a whore, and I don't like it, and I won't stand for it. By objectifying women we place them in a weaker and inferior position within society. Women are not there just to make babies and sit at home looking pretty for men. In truth, you should be able to walk down the street naked and be unmolested. In reality, we are still stuck in some rinky dink world, where conventional lies and the myth of decency dictate behaviour, were women who have sex are promiscuous and were men can do as they please.

    before the 1920's in the west women we considered the chattel, or property of men. They could not vote, their job prospects were limited, they were expected to get married and have children and be housewives. Very few women had careers, but they all still had dreams, ideals and expectations. Women were considered to be the weaker sex, not as intelligent, not as strong, not as capable. In the last 80-100 years women have come a long way, and I do not want to retreat to the dark ages and not be able to leave the house in a short sleeved blouse without a chaperone. Women in my country still do not get equal pay in line with men. Women are still more likely to be the unpaid carers and servants of their husbands and parents even though we have made many advances. I have male friends, and I have female friends. We mix. Both the women and the men can usually be trusted to not rip each others clothes off and start shagging just becuase they are together, because women are not considered to be the sole playthings of men anymore. If a man or a woman fancies you, wants to have sex with you, you play the game. They ask, in some way, for more contact, and you decide whether or not to give them any. If you do not want to, they are supposed to respect that choice, whether you are in a veil or in a bikini.

    ...when we were young adults we would all go out clubbing together, and then we would all get into a big bed, and sleep. We did not want to pounce on each other, we were friends, and we loved each other, we were not a polyamorous bunch of debauched westerners... I hug my male friends, and we treat each other very well. If I inflame their passions then I would expect them to have self control and respect for me, as I do them. Thats called civilisation. It's called progress. It's called mutual respect. My perception of the muslim world is that those same values I and my friends hold dear do not exist, and false modesty is used as a means of control and suppression of women.

    I think yes, you are oppressed, and you and all the other headscarfed women are colluding in your own oppression. You can all pretend you like walking round in a sheet when its 90 degrees and I'm in my shorts, but I'm not buying it...

    cheerio...
     
  16. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    2,312
    Likes Received:
    0
    Maybe you feel as strong about western values as a conservative Muslim point of view Francis? Nothing but different sides of the same coin. Who is going to decide which is the right way? Many Muslim women choose to wear the veil, many don't and many are not bothered. Either way I respect any peoples way of life, I don't think I’m in a position to approve or disapprove of it because taking sides amounts to hate. If something is wrong, I like to think it eliminates naturally.
     
  17. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2005
    Messages:
    5,826
    Likes Received:
    0
    And what about the fact that it is the woman, (usually the older, more wrinkled, less pretty than they were ones), that are apt to be the first ones to call for a stoning? Is there not some adage that behind every successful man is a woman? I posit that there is indeed...and usually she not only pulls every string but is one mean mother too. I get a bit resentful that some women can only see far enough to blame men. Its far from true that only men are to blame and it is quite blatantly sexist.
    That said I did enjoy your post :)
     
  18. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,633
    Likes Received:
    43
    Francis, as I have opened myself to the possibility of ridicule and hatred in order to further interfaith discussion (by allowing people to ask me questions and make their comments) I really could do without the sarcasm please.

    Such sinful objects? Never heard this one before. I do not wear hijab because I am a sinful object, I wear it so that I will be recognised as a Muslim, respected as a woman and not thought of as a 'play thing' for men. How does that make me a sinful object? If I was a high court judge wearing a mini skirt, with cleavage and high heels would I be respected or taken seriously? What if I was a lawyer, a doctor, a university professor? Hardly think so.

    I think perhaps you are under the usual misconception that only Muslim women are to dress and bahave modestly? Muslim men are also required to "lower their gaze", they have rules about dress and what cannot be worn or shown of the body.

    As for cultural convention, I am a western woman brought up in europe and certainly under no 'cultural convention'. G-d and the Prophet Mohammad clearly state how I should behave and dress. I do not wear hijab to please my husband or society, I wear it to please Allah and Him alone. It is my choice and I choose how to dress, I choose to cover my hair but I choose not to cover my face.

    Absolutely nothing if you are not a Muslim. There is only a requirement that Muslims dress this way and this requirement comes from Allah not from men.

    Perhaps you are unaware that Muslims, both men and women, must remain virgins until they marry. Would it therefore be kind or decent to taunt my unmarried brothers by showing them something they cannot have? This is one of the many ways that Muslims respect each other, we try to behave and dress so as not to offend or excite each other.

    Since when did I have to pretend to be a virgin in the town square? Islam is very open about what goes on between a man and wife (so much so I have found myself red faced on a number of occasions). The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) instructed men that once they are satisfied they must not leave the bed until their wife is also satisfied. Does this not show the respect Islam affords to women? How does that make me a trophy housewife?

    Sorry but this shows such misunderstanding. You must try to look at Islam itself, the Quran, the teachings of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) to see what Islam is, the respect and choices Muslim women are given, not the behaviour of a small group of Arab Muslims. There are 1.5 billion Muslims (and rising daily) in every part of the world and only a small percentage of women live under such extreme fundamentalist conditions. I live in the Middle East and I do not feel oppressed in any way (one would think as a western woman going to live there I would notice it more than the women born there). That said I would never make the choice to live in Saudi because the women there are oppressed by men under the banner of Islam but NOT by Islam itself.

    I have also taken to the tradition of removing all hair from my face (except eyebrows) and arms. I spend hours shopping for clothes and make up with my female friends. Of course I am just as concerned about my appearance as every other woman on the planet and like western women I do it because it makes me feel good, not just to please my husband.

    I too would not stand for it, if you were a guest in my town in Egypt and a Muslim man said something like this to you, you would see how 'timid' Muslim women are (women hitting men in the street with shoes is quite normal following any insult to a woman). :D

    If this happens again, insh'allah it won't, but if it does please don't get angry. Instead tell them that the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said "Do not search for faults in each other nor yearn after that which others possess, nor envy, nor entertain malice, or indifference; and be the servants of G-d". You can also point out to them that the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) made peace treaties with people of other religions and they all lived, according to their own ways, peacefully together (they were not allowed to say the women of other religions should dress as Muslim women).

    They are speaking from ignorance and malice and for that I apologise to you, so by using the words and examples of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), instead of anger, you can make them feel and look stupid and ashamed - as well they should.

    See my comment above about Muslim men having the same restrictions upon them as the women. Do all behave as they should? Of course not but please do not 'blame' Islam for the faults of some misguided and sinful men (and indeed women).

    I can give you many examples of Muslim women in very prominent positions in Muslim societies, my doctor and lawyer are both women (I chose them because they are women). The Quran is packed full of verses that say "the believeing men and the believeing women" - this is in relation to education, work, dress, behaviour, etc. Men are not singled out in Islam as better than women, just as different with different responsibilities.

    May I give one very honest and true example from my personal experience. When I first married, my husband went to see the local Sheikh (in Egypt) to ask about his duties as a husband. He was told that he should employ a woman to cook and clean for me and that if he couldnt afford to do this then he should perform these duties himself. This is the teaching of Islam, the respect offered to women but I choose to look after the home myself because I love my husband and I dont want a stranger doing this work for me. The problems occur when men want power and comfort for themselves, (as they have historically wanted in all societies) and they twist our religion to suit their desires.

    I would not want any women to go back to the dark ages, I do feel that womens lib has gone a bit over the top in some areas but this is my personal opinion and not one I would thrust onto others. That said, I choose to wear hijab and don't want to go back to my days of short skirts and cleavage. I respect your choice of dress and only ask that you respect my choice of dress without labelling me oppressed.

    And do they always respect that choice?

    The game that you refer to is exactly what we try to avoid because we are instructed to do so by G-d. It is our belief, we do not say you must believe it or follow it. Look to any of the main religions, marriage is sacred and you should be chaste before marriage. Modesty and faith simply go hand in hand and I am not prepared to sin against G-d so that I am not to so hot when I walk down the street. It is all a matter of belief and choice.

    Muslims feel that it is more mutually respectful to not behave in such a manner that would inflame their passion in the first place. Then there is no need to test the boundaries of a persons self control. Same coin, different sides.

    I sincerely hope that some of my comments above have made you see Islam in a slightly different light.

    I too have spoken to a few Muslim women who hold much more fundamentalist beliefs of Islam and the word that springs to my mind is 'brainwashed'. However, it is their choice to hold their views and I must respect that. Isn't freedom of speech and thought a western concept?

    Please try to understand I do not like walking around in hijab during the summer (remember I am white skinned and live in a desert) it is uncomfortable for me but I do it to submit to G-d. It is the submission to G-d that pleases me not the dress itself. I do it for reasons of faith alone, not because of men or to show other people what a good Muslim I am. G-d has instructed Muslims to be modest and I take the word of G-d over anything in this world.

    salaam
     
  19. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    9,437
    Likes Received:
    3

    You could sentence and punish me. :D
     
  20. Francis king

    Francis king New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,318
    Likes Received:
    0
    thank you, muslimwoman, for ur erudite reply, and I am glad that I did not offend u too greatly...

    salaam
     

Share This Page