I agree that humans are really screwed up

S

shadowman

Guest
ok I actually agree with the whole premise that humans are horrible sinners with tons of problems. Does this meen we deserve hell. Does it meen I dont have the ability to see that I deserve hell?

or should I be asking: is eternally punishing a conscious being good? even if the conscious being is a hopeless sinner? and should it be created in order to find sinning creatures worthy of it? Even if we are so bad, punishing people forever is bad too. isnt this obvious to anyone?
 
shadowman said:
or should I be asking: is eternally punishing a conscious being good? even if the conscious being is a hopeless sinner? and should it be created in order to find sinning creatures worthy of it? Even if we are so bad, punishing people forever is bad too. isnt this obvious to anyone?
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Should be.

What if hell is just temporary, shadow? What if it's also a product of our own actions, rather than an eternal judgment laid down by a masochistic God? I know that this in not in line with mainstream Christian thinking, but it might be a thought that a thinking person like yourself will want to entertain and experiment with.

Peace,
Pathless
 
My own theory of hell is that it has to do with how we lived our lives. I do not subscribe to the theory that swearing occasionally, getting frusterated, losing our path, discovering new beliefs, coming back to old, making big mistakes, even bigger mistakes and small mistakes will have us damned for eternity.

It is about INTENT and ACTION. The only person who judges me is myself and if I haven't done my best in this life then I am creating my own hell. And if I end up in an afterlife, I believe that I will be welcome with open arms because I loved children and my parents and other people. I grew things and fed stray animals, gave my time, myself and did what was right. I have been a loving friend and wife and daughter and sister and niece and preschool teacher.

There will be no one who can see to my heart that would believe I deserve hell. And I believe that of most people. I honestly believe in everyones goodness, it is society and low self esteem lack of education and love that makes us all "screwed up".

Once upon a time we were all born into this world innocent and full of love. So, that is why I beileve that we are good.

**Amy steps of the soapbox**
 
shadowman said:
is eternally punishing a conscious being good? quote]
i am Glad to say that the God of the bible would not do such a thing as that, but man makes up all sorts of manmade doctrines and people even get to believe those false doctrines .......... but not all people are misled to believe such blasphemas lies . yes some humans sure are screwed up .
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I will not believe it, I honestly believe that we create the screwed up people. If we follow what is true and right we are all making a difference in the world.

Hey, that's what gets me out of bed in the morning...
 
Pathless said:
Should be.

What if hell is just temporary, shadow? What if it's also a product of our own actions, rather than an eternal judgment laid down by a masochistic God? I know that this in not in line with mainstream Christian thinking, but it might be a thought that a thinking person like yourself will want to entertain and experiment with.

Peace,
Pathless
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Actually it is. We create our own hell's on earth (much to God's chagrin). Some of us let preachers lead us on the way, while others seek more wisened and well, just wisened men of the cloth to bring us back to reality.

Even Paul warned us about getting too caught up in the misery thing (well at least one church).

Remember, God designed us in such a way that we can't pat ourselves too hard on the back, nor kick ourselves too hard in the ass...:eek:
 
shadowman said:
ok I actually agree with the whole premise that humans are horrible sinners with tons of problems. Does this mean we deserve hell. Does it mean I don’t have the ability to see that I deserve hell?
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shadowman said:

alternatively, should I be asking: is eternally punishing a conscious being good? even if the conscious being is a hopeless sinner? and should it be created in order to find sinning creatures worthy of it? Even if we are so bad, punishing people forever is bad too. isnt this obvious to anyone?
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There are some freaking awesome people... Heroes, people that put others before them, they put their lives on the line... There are those that try so hard for peace and friendship.. You then have those who are indeed bad.. The problem with your religion is, it claims all is bad... "sinners" poppycock... There are some amazing people out there that I wish I could be just like...

BUT, even the bad have good within them.... Some just need the chance, some need a shoulder to lean on and just "let it out" all should be forgiven, be it villain or hero. As I was saying last night..... A man takes life... He is now bad... You put him in a prison and take his life... What makes you any better? Nothing, you are a killer... Simple you are not any better. The film I was watching last night "Tears of the Sun." Was showing Nigeria rebels... They were treated badly... So they then treated the people of the president in some disgusting ways.... What makes them better? It makes them cold-blooded monsters.... So.... For your god.... of love and "forgiveness" to punish for eternity.... Eternity... That doesn't make him any better then the person he is sending to hell.. (Ohhh how dare you say that!) Well I did, live with it ;/ If your god sends people to hell for eternity, he is no better then any bad person that comes to your mind... Saddam, Hitler, Dhamer, The Yorkshire ripper, Vlad the Impaler, Elizabeth Bathory, The West’s, the Green river strangler... Whoever... He is on par.
 
17th Angel said:
There are some freaking awesome people... Heroes, people that put others before them, they put their lives on the line... There are those that try so hard for peace and friendship.. You then have those who are indeed bad.. The problem with your religion is, it claims all is bad... "sinners" poppycock... There are some amazing people out there that I wish I could be just like...

BUT, even the bad have good within them.... Some just need the chance, some need a shoulder to lean on and just "let it out" all should be forgiven, be it villain or hero. As I was saying last night..... A man takes life... He is now bad... You put him in a prison and take his life... What makes you any better? Nothing, you are a killer... Simple you are not any better. The film I was watching last night "Tears of the Sun." Was showing Nigeria rebels... They were treated badly... So they then treated the people of the president in some disgusting ways.... What makes them better? It makes them cold-blooded monsters.... So.... For your god.... of love and "forgiveness" to punish for eternity.... Eternity... That doesn't make him any better then the person he is sending to hell.. (Ohhh how dare you say that!) Well I did, live with it ;/ If your god sends people to hell for eternity, he is no better then any bad person that comes to your mind... Saddam, Hitler, Dhamer, The Yorkshire ripper, Vlad the Impaler, Elizabeth Bathory, The West’s, the Green river strangler... Whoever... He is on par.
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If we are talking about a God that is creator of all, then it is God's game, and God's rules. It has also been said that it is not God who sends man to hell, man does of his own accord. God states over and over that He want's man to be with Him forever...if man says no, then God says "ok", and man (not God) seperates himself from the Creator.

Forgiveness is not for the benefit of the transgressor, but rather for the one who has been transgressed. Because if he cannot forgive (or refuses to forgive), the rot of the wrong festers within his soul. Yes the transgressor may or may not suffer from the wrong inflicted upon another...but the one transgressed who cannot forgive is destroyed inside, by his own rage.

Likewise, if the transgressor refuses to accept forgiveness, he too is destroyed from within.

Indeed, man is in charge of his own destiny, but even destiny has rules that must be played by, to determine the final outcome.

my thoughts

v/r

Joshua
 
Sorry, I read your previous post... Incorrectly.

I was reading another post of yours speaking of your sons if one was successful and one was not... That for the benefit and service of the unsuccesful son it is best to leave him to his own means to drag himself back to his feet... So he can learn and become strong and such... Sorry that just came to mind and I was comparing it to a god that could allow a man(son) to stay in hell for all eternity... But, then I realised it is different, very much.... A son of man will only be down temporary... He will get to his feet and stand his ground and learn and become better, but the son of god sent to hell.... He has nothing, he will stay on his knees, with no chance of standing.... If you had the power, and the love, you simply wouldn't allow it, no matter how big the error... You'd forgive and save that son from an eternity of pain.... ;\

The other thing I think it was Dondi... Maybe. Talking obviously of man not being perfect, but once Dondi went to heaven his errors and such would be changed and removed and so on... Like updated... So he then will be perfect. So, why can't you take this "bad" man and just update him too.... ;\
 
17th Angel said:
Sorry, I read your previous post... Incorrectly.

I was reading another post of yours speaking of your sons if one was successful and one was not... That for the benefit and service of the unsuccesful son it is best to leave him to his own means to drag himself back to his feet... So he can learn and become strong and such... Sorry that just came to mind and I was comparing it to a god that could allow a man(son) to stay in hell for all eternity... But, then I realised it is different, very much.... A son of man will only be down temporary... He will get to his feet and stand his ground and learn and become better, but the son of god sent to hell.... He has nothing, he will stay on his knees, with no chance of standing.... If you had the power, and the love, you simply wouldn't allow it, no matter how big the error... You'd forgive and save that son from an eternity of pain.... ;\

The other thing I think it was Dondi... Maybe. Talking obviously of man not being perfect, but once Dondi went to heaven his errors and such would be changed and removed and so on... Like updated... So he then will be perfect. So, why can't you take this "bad" man and just update him too.... ;\
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God and man, like the father, the son and The prodigal son. Dad didn't send the prodigal away or put him on his knees in the gutter, the prodigal did it to himself. But when the prodigal finally came back thinking he might be allowed to be a pig herder for his dad (at least he'd have a roof over his head), that's not how dad greeted him at all...

And when the righteous son saw the dad fussing over the prodigal, he got mad! Why would dad treat the prodigal like royalty, when I have been faithful, diligent and loyal?

Dad, told the indignent son, "you have and have always been at my side, but your brother was lost, but now he is found, he has come back to me...is that not reason for celebration?"
 
17th Angel said:
The other thing I think it was Dondi... Maybe. Talking obviously of man not being perfect, but once Dondi went to heaven his errors and such would be changed and removed and so on... Like updated... So he then will be perfect. So, why can't you take this "bad" man and just update him too.... ;\
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I don't see why not. But that will depend if the "bad' man wants to be changed. The Physician comes for those that are sick, not the well. I am no different that the "bad" man, humanly speaking. But I recognize that if I'm going to be changed, then God has to do it. It is a matter of letting Him do so.
 
So the gems of mankind... (heroes) That don't believe in god... They have used "their gift" of freewill... deserve hell? Course they don't.... They have done every... no more than they could possible have done in situations and still at any moment try hard.... The only thing they have done "wrong" is that they haven't accepted your god? Bad men... bad bad bad men.... please.
 
17th Angel said:
So the gems of mankind... (heroes) That don't believe in god... They have used "their gift" of freewill... deserve hell? Course they don't.... They have done every... no more than they could possible have done in situations and still at any moment try hard.... The only thing they have done "wrong" is that they haven't accepted your god? Bad men... bad bad bad men.... please.
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Not saying that there aren't men who have done noble things apart from God. Our makeup is through our various experiences, learning, background, and relationships that have been forged, good or bad. Not saying that man cannot do "any" good, in and of himself. But we are just not that good enough. When God made us, He not only called it good, but very good. He made us in His Image. Only that image has been tarnished. Yet there is an element of brilliance underneath that has the potential to shine. But only God has the means of removing that tarnish, to restore us to our original condition. It is impossible for us to do it alone. Perfection can only come from Someone who is perfect. You cannot calibrate an instrument without a standard.
 
When my face was "tarnished" as a kid... My grandmother, wouldn't hesitate in grabbing that hanky giving it a lick and rubbing my face like she was sanding down a rough 2x4.... Can't god do that? Just grab that old hanky give it a good spit then grasp you by the face and give it a nice clean?
 
17th Angel said:
When my face was "tarnished" as a kid... My grandmother, wouldn't hesitate in grabbing that hanky giving it a lick and rubbing my face like she was sanding down a rough 2x4.... Can't god do that? Just grab that old hanky give it a good spit then grasp you by the face and give it a nice clean?
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Not if you keep running away from Granny.
 
You can't run!!! I never seen an old person move so fast... If they ain't wipping their grandchilds face with spit, or getting pension or an award... They aren't fast... but if any of the above? Stand back... There's a hurricane coming through.
 
Miss Amy said:
I will not believe it, I honestly believe that we create the screwed up people. If we follow what is true and right we are all making a difference in the world.

Hey, that's what gets me out of bed in the morning...
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Amen.

Nameste Amy,

It is our job to see the good in everyone...and in that way assist in raising them to their highest potential.

Every encounter we have with another spiritual being in this physical experience either leaves them feeling better about themselves and the world or worse...we either raise their consciousness and awarness and goodness or as you say...assist in creating mre screwed up people!

tis free will, our free will, our choice to act like Ghandi, like Mother Theresa, or like Hitler....yes extreme opposite ends of the spectrum....but we choose to either support growth in one another....or kill it.

If we are trying to grow a rose bush...when it doesn't bloom doesn't grow as we like...we prune it, train it, fertilize it, water it....we don't beat it, yell at it, or put it in jail.

The question is....with our thoughts, words and actions are we currently creating a better world...supporting growth in those around us...or supressing it?
 
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