Creation vs. Evolution vs. "Emanationism"

Discussion in 'Alternative' started by Nick the Pilot, May 4, 2007.

  1. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Hi everybody!

    I was just reading in a Christian thread about the debate over Creation vs. Evolution. I would like to say there is a third choice in Theosophy which I call "Emanationism"

    I would like to share a couple of ideas.

    (1) The idea that evolution happens, but it is guided.

    (2) The times that evolutionists list (billions of years) are in some cases too short! (It has been said our solar system alone is trillions of years old.) People and galaxies are said to emanate, rather than said to be created. Emanationism says these things take a very long time, but they are guided.
     
  2. bgruagach

    bgruagach eclectic Wiccan

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    Another possibility is that while things change over time, the universe as a whole has always existed and always will exist. Whether there is a guiding force or not is another question of course.
     
  3. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    FWIW, I think the bottom line is we really have no earthly way of knowing in the scant few years that compose a lifetime.
     
  4. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    BG and Juan,

    Thanks for replying. I agree there is a lot out there we know nothing about. I have always thought the two extremes of Creationism and Darwinism were just that -- extremes. I think it is good we explore possibilities inbetween the two extremes.
     
  5. bgruagach

    bgruagach eclectic Wiccan

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    Re: ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~

    Creationism and evolution are not necessarily two extremes. There are plenty of people who believe that the Divine creates using the process of evolution.
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Agreed. That is the orthodox Christian position.

    One of Aquinas' famous 'five proofs', itself drawn from Aristotelian philosophy, is currently in vogue as the argument of 'intelligent design'.

    The Kalaam Cosmological Argument (that the universe is not infinite and has a cause) was raised in the 9th century, and is still discussed today ... the point being that it is an argument, it is not a proof.

    The Creation vs Evolution debate, as it is playing out in the American legal and education system, I would suggest is a 'hiccup' and is inconsistent with traditional orthodox beliefs. It is the product of a strain of Christian fundamentalism that seems to be 'defining' Christianity in the US (in the sense that outside the US, the picture of a fundamentalism is commonly received).

    Thomas




    Thomas
     
  7. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Re: ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~

    I think this is what Nick meant by #1 (The idea that evolution happens, but it is guided.) ... but please correct me if I am wrong, Nick. :)

    As a believer in the Singularity, and also in the `Big Crunch' of modern theory, I think the obvious question begged would be - and whence the Singularity? What's on the "other side," so to speak?

    That's where room for all sorts of Divine Guidance opens up. Literally. ;)

    Mulaprakriti, and Parabrahman, these most ancient of Vedic ideas, even with the vast figures of Cosmic evolution (311 trillion years, I got it right this time, Nick! :p) ... really taught us much of what modern science is only just beginning to hypothesize and accept.

    Kabbalistically, there is the Life of Space, and the Eyn Soph, corresponding to the Vedic teaching. And there is the Virgin, with relation to the Logos, of Christian Mysticism. Admittedly, I might never have understood all of this from Genesis, without the commentary of later authors. But the parallels are unmistakable. We just lack, as yet, the ability to point our telescope to the very heart of things, and dispense with the discrepancies once and for all. :eek:

    Still, I think we are on the verge of a New Revelation, now that we can see within - toward the heart of matter - just as deeply, or "far" as we can see without - away from the here & now. Grand Unified Field Theory is no longer someone's pipe dream. Quantum Physics, as mysterious as ever, is no longer just for the "experts." Even laypeople can begin to get a glimpse.

    `What the Bleep Do We Know?' is a damn good film along these lines, if you haven't seen it. Marlee Matlin is in it, and a bunch of physicists, neuroscientists, etc. There are even a few direct comments regarding religion, and a new paradigm that is large enough, or inclusive enough, to accommodate the "best of both worlds."

    In speaking of our busy schedules and our tendency to get overloaded, a wise man once said, "If your plate's too small, get a bigger plate!" :D

    ~andrew
     
  8. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    BG,

    Thanks for that clarification. I suppose there are liberal Christians who believe in a Guided Evolution.

    I am afraid I did not make myself clear. I believe in something called Emanation, which is different than Evolution. For example, I say the universe emanated from its source, rather than it was a created. It is a small point, but to us, it is an important distinction.
     
  9. Dondi

    Dondi Active Member

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    Where do you get that the solar system is trillions of years old? Scientists would point to evidence that suggests that the universe is only roughly 13 billion years old, created far shorter than the trillion years you are suggesting, let alone that of the solar system.
     
  10. niranjan

    niranjan New Member

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    Heres a little something on evolution in Hinduism.


    The famous scientist , J B S Haldane, who gave up his British citizenship and became an Indian and settled in Calcutta, observed that the Dasavataras are a true sequential depiction of the great unfolding of evolution.

    If you analyse the avatars of Vishnu , you can observe an uncanny similarity to the biological theory of evolution of life on earth.

    The first avatar of Vishnu is Matsya or fish.( According to science, life originated in water).

    The second avatar of Vishnu is Kurma or tortoise.( the evolution of the fish to the amphibean tortoise)

    The third avatar of Vishnu is Varaha or the boar.( the evolution of the amphibean to the strictly land animal).

    The fourth avatar of Vishnu is Narasimha or the man-lion.( the evolution of the land animal to a humanoid form with animalistic charecterestics ).

    The fifth avatar of Vishnu is Vamana or dwarf ( the evolution of the animal-man to purely human in dwarf form).

    The sixth avatar of Vishnu is Parashurama ( the evolution of the dwarf to a physically well-developed and ferocious warrior).

    The seventh avatar of Vishnu is Rama ( the evolution of the ferocious warrior to Rama, who is considered as the ideal man or the maryada purushottama and the embodiment of morality , ethics and righteousness).

    The eighth avatar of Vishnu is Krishna ( the evolution of Rama , the ideal man to Krishna who is considered as the ideal yogi, the superman who is known for his manysidedness and allrounded character , as I have stated in the thread ' Krishna: Zorba the Buddha' in the hinduism forum.)

    The animal evolution and development connotations bear striking resemblances to the modern scientific theory of Evolution.
     
  11. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Dondi,


    In the following Wikipedia article on Religious Cosmology, you can find an exoteric chronology which states:
    The later puranic view asserts that the universe is created, destroyed, and re-created in an eternally repetitive series of cycles. In Hindu cosmology, a universe endures for about 4,320,000,000 years (one day of Brahma, the creator or kalpa) and is then destroyed by fire or water elements. At this point, Brahma rests for one night, just as long as the day. This process, named pralaya (Cataclysm), repeats for 100 Brahma years (311 trillion human years) that represents Brahma's lifespan. It must be noted that Brahma is the creator but not necessarily regarded as God in Hinduism. He is mostly regarded as a creation of God / Brahman.
    We are currently believed to be in the 51st year of the present Brahma and so about 155 trillion years have elapsed since He was born as Brahma. After Brahma's "death", it is necessary that another 100 Brahma years pass until he is reborn and the whole creation begins anew. This process is repeated again and again, forever.
    I've highlighted the number that I used in my own post in blue. Nick has corrected me twice in the past for typing 3.11 trillion, since I kept confusing it with the 4.32 billion ... :p

    Sure, science tells us now that the Universe is much, much younger. But what difference do you think it makes, a few billion, vs. a few trillion years? lol [See also, my following post.]

    Some poeple believe, on religious grounds, no less, that the entire Cosmos is but a few thousand years old!!!

    Esotericists agree with Christian Fundamentalists in this regard; we just push the clock in the opposite direction! :D
     
  12. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Niranjan,

    Consider, also, the following excerpts from The Code of Manu, on evolution ... regarding the progression of Spirit (Life) through the various material forms:
    "The first germ of life was developed by water and heat" (Manu, book i., sloka 8).

    "Water ascends toward the sky in vapors; from the sun it descends in rain, from the rain are born the plants, and from the plants, animals" (book iii., sloka 76).

    "Each being acquires the qualities of the one which immediately precedes it, in such a manner that the farther a being gets away from the primal atom of its series, the more he is possessed of qualities and perfections" (book i., sloka 20).

    "Man will traverse the universe, gradually ascending, and passing through the rocks, the plants, the worms, insects, fish, serpents, tortoises, wild animals, cattle, and higher animals. . . . Such is the inferior degree"(Ibid.).

    "These are the transformations declared, from the plant up to Brahma, which have to take place in his world" (Ibid.).

    This is exactly what the Kabbalistic Zohar tells us, by the way:
    "The Breath becomes a stone; the stone, a plant; the plant, an animal; the animal, a man; the man, a spirit; and the spirit, a god."
    The Code of Manu, of course, is an ancient source. Darwinin Evolution was proposed when exactly? ;) :p
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    ok, 150 trillion years for bang collapse bang collapse....etc...

    but how does our solar system get to be trillions of years old?

    ie our solar system currently consisting of a sun and 8 planets...

    is it that the collapse is so controlled that the universe re-emanates as it was?? new elasticity paradigm? I'm envisioning all the space between electrons and nucleus collapsing and re-hydrating (ala bucky balls)....rather than waiting for an answer...
     
  14. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    and G-d a breath?
     
  15. niranjan

    niranjan New Member

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    If you read the Ramayana, the epic of Rama, you can see that he has a friend called Hanuman . Hanuman combines the charecterestics of both human beings and apes. He possess the intelligence of human beings, and at the same time the restlessness and mischief and charecterestics of apes.
    And there were others like Hanuman who were clearly distinct from human beings. I believe they became extinct afterwards as they are not seen later . I believe that these man-apes could be the missing link as taught by Darwin. Perhaps if we can find the skeletons of these man-apes, that would solve the puzzle of the missing link.
     
  16. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Niranjan,

    I have heard of the avatars of Vishnu before. Tell me, how do you relate this to the concepts of Brahma and Brahmâ?
     
  17. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Wil,

    The Breath refers to the constant appearing and disappearing of universes. As a universe appears, there is a downward shift in focus from spiritual to material (an outbreathing of the Breath). As the universe begins its upward return back to the spiritual, this is an inbreathing of the Breath.

    It is from this Breath that all things manifest. So, then, the Breath becomes a stone (with a lot of steps left out for brevity).
     
  18. niranjan

    niranjan New Member

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    Re: ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~

    And what has the avatars of Vishnu has to do with Brahma ? And what is "Brahmâ" ! Do you mean to say Brahman?
     
  19. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Niranjan,

    Vishnu and Brahma are both part of my belief system. I was just wondering how they both fit into yours.

    Brahma is another spelling for Brahman in my belief system. In my belief system, there is a big difference between Brahma and Brahmâ (thus the spelling distinction). I was wondering if your belief system had the same difference.
     
  20. niranjan

    niranjan New Member

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    Re: ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~


    And what do you mean my and yours belief system, it is one and the same to everyone .

    GOD ---- Generator ( Brahma) , Operator( Vishnu), Destroyer(Shiva)

    The trinity is a manifestation of the supreme impersonal Being Brahman and hence they are one and the same in essence.
     

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