Gypsies.....

Discussion in 'Alternative' started by 17th Angel, May 18, 2007.

?

Gypsies, love um hate um couldn't care less?

  1. Hate them.

    4 vote(s)
    23.5%
  2. Love them.

    11 vote(s)
    64.7%
  3. Couldn't care less..

    2 vote(s)
    11.8%
  1. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    What are your views on the Gypsy?

    Does crime rate rise?
    Do they steal?
    Do they dodge taxes?
    Do they even have jobs?

    What's your view?

    Such as I live in a very nice area.... And two days ago.. Gyspsies decided to tresspass onto -private- land and live there... I and many others called the police and they now have until 6pm tonight to pack their camp up and move away....


    ALSO!

    Despite my, snobby attitude, their littering, their causing of large scale fires, their tresspassing, their unsightly camp and caravans.... And my dred of crime rates rising.... Was I wrong to demand the police move them? Would you want to live near to that?
     
  2. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    Could not vote. None of the choices express my veiws. I think they have a right to their way of life but am aware that a percentage of them have no regard for the mayhem/destruction they bring. And leave behind when they move on.
    While living in Greece got on well with a gypsy (in Greek pronounced 'giftos'), family that were employed anualy for our main harvest. They lived in a tent and were as hospitable ,warm, kind people as you could ever meet. They were genuine Romany featured gypsies unlike many of the 'tinkers' we have in the UK. Often these tinkers have absolutely no respect for local communities nor the land which they occupy and bring much of the heat they get down upon themselves. But also communities are often overtly hostile to them. I think both sides have a way to go in accepting each other.

    TE
     
  3. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Interesting... How you say they both need to accept each other... I pay money... Lots of money monthly for my rite to live here... They have just come along and do not pay a penny... Why should I have to accept them tresspassing onto our area? I am genuinely asking this question to see if you can point out things I should note..... Of course I can see how in simple text form that can come across oozing with attitude and hostility... But, that isn't how it is, I am asking this question in all seriousness... Thought I'd clear that up as text can be misleading heh.

    Vote wise, I should have put couldn't care less as neutral or something... As that is what it represents...
     
  4. Francis king

    Francis king New Member

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    well, 17th, I'm learning lots about u man... first I learn ur an ex-JW, and now, ur a NIMBY... lol...

    seriously though... u ask-"What are your views on the Gypsy?
    Does crime rate rise? Do they steal? Do they dodge taxes? Do they even have jobs?"

    imho... really we should make a distinction from new age travellers and gypsies, and then between the different type of gypsy... the word gypsy itself is considered derogatory, and so ppl tend to use the word Roma now, but I like the word gypsy, so I'm sticking with it...

    real gypsies have been around for a long time, they tend to keep where they live clean... the local council should by rights allot a little land for travellers to use, although when they do it's usually a scabby patch of concrete without facilities...

    new age travellers, on the other hand, are a pain in the nether regions, there's a general lack of respect for others and lots of heavy drinking and hard drugs, lighting fires and generally being a nuisance... society's drop outs, they are, in the main, however romantically they talk about life on the road, life on the road in this country is crap- it's cold, and ppl hate u...

    realistically, there's lots of "gypsies" about- approximately 21,000 Irish "Pavees" in Ireland, although Ireland doesn't recognise them as a anything more than a social group, in England and Wales they have rights as a minority ethnic group, and according to estimates there's around 15,000 of them in England, most of which now live in houses...

    romany gypsies, aka "the Roma", worldwide, number some 8-10 million, they originated from the Punjab and Rajasthan regions of India, and they migrated to Europe and North africa via Iran in about 1050 AD...

    yes, gypsies have a reputation for stealing, but they are in fact these days far more likely to be involved in building scams, offering neighbour's work and then not doing the job or doing the job badly and running off with the money... these days it's usually roofing and tarmac-ing, but they can turn their hand to other things should the mood take them...

    they are not likely to burgle your house or mug you, though, although they might turn their hand to the odd bit of shoplifting should they have to, and if you leave something lying around, they might well take it, but that happens everywhere...

    as for dodging taxes- unless ur a settled traveller u do not need to pay council tax.. unless u have a real job u do not need to pay income tax either, and so they're not doing anything that the law doesn't allow...

    traditionally, of course, gypsies worked copper, fixed tin, sold clothes pegs and bits of cloth door to door, kept horses, told fortunes, travelled with the fair, didseasonal work picking hops, and fruits, etc, etc, yet most of these traditional ways of making money are no longer open to the traveller, and he still has to eat...

    ur still entitled to welfare benefits, as a traveller, and probably most of them claim something, which will keep them fed, at least, but it doesn't pay for diesel for ur van and it won't stretch to many gas bottles in the winter, so, what do u do? there's only so much lucky heather and good luck charms you can sell in the town centre, after all...

    not so long ago where I live a little gypsy boy was killed by a gang of scally kids, for no other reason than the kid was a gypsy... they had befriended him and then killed him... most gypsy kids don't go to school, as they can't handle the discrimination they recieve... it's not an easy life, but ppl feel that it is their right to live how they choose, and most councils have a worker to deal specifically with travellers, make sure their kids get schooling, ensure communities have access to adequate healthcare, etc etc, but they are a much maligned group, and ppl view them with such suspicion it is no wonder they have become an insular community who dislikes the gorgio...

    when we were kids it was a real insult to be called- "gyppo"... sure, being fat and ginger was bad, but to be called a gyppo? it meant u had to play fisticuffs and defend ur honour... lol...

    so, 17th... next time, phone the council, rather than the police- they get enough stick from the Law as it is, and probably don't need any more... and well, no doubt u will see them again, as they tend to come back to the same pitches about every two years or so...

    course it's ur right to complain, but why complain at all? unless they're stealing from u and urs, leave them alone, man...

    or ye shall be thrice cursed!

    lucky heather, anyone..?
     
  5. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    A what?

    Did a search
    ------------------------------------------
    NIMBY (NIM.bee) acronym. A person who hopes or seeks to keep some dangerous or unpleasant feature out of his or her neighborhood
    ------------------------------------------

    Uhm..... Who wouldn't want that?

    So basically you say there is a common misunderstanding and error in identifying a gyspy and the "new age traveller" ? And the gypsys get the stick and get it in the neck thanks to the travellers?

    Both sides are at blame And again this could come down to the mix up in identity?

    Here, unlike most areas... The police are fast quick and awesome... The longest I have had to wait for the police to arrive for a sitauation was five minutes....... They are such an awesome "SERVICE" in this area... And I called the police because these people broke the law...... And if they are not gone by 6pm they will be arrested and assets... If you can call it that... Ceased.

    Why complain? Because I don't like them making this area a mess. :) They are not welcome here.

    I laugh at their pathetic curse.... That is another reason I dislike them... Think they can intimidate people with their mumbo jumbo bullshit.....
     
  6. Francis king

    Francis king New Member

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    well, so long as they're not in ur bk yard, hey, 17th..? lol
     
  7. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Back yard being my garden? It isn't wise to tresspass in my Garden no... :) Cause then you will pray for the police... Than feel the wrath of my dogs or me... Depends what kind of mood I am in... *evil cackle*

    But, yeah basically not a major problem with them.... Out of sight out of mind mentality...
     
  8. Francis king

    Francis king New Member

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    yeah, probably a rational approach, 17th...
     
  9. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    I have a right to defend my home... :) Simple moral to the story... Don't trespass in someone's back garden...

    But I think, my chain of thought is reasonable... I have no problem with anyone unless they are disturbing the peace, littering, scavenging in Tesco bins and causing large fires..... Then I have a problem...

    Obviously your previous post could be taken as sarcastic... In honesty you would still say my approach is wrong?
     
  10. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    Hi y'all--:)

    I don't personally know any gypsies (at least not in the traditional sense of the word) but I do have a story. I know, you can't wait, right? :D

    My mom grew up in the Ozark mountains in Arkansas. I don't know how much you've heard about Arkansas, but it does have its mystery and lore. Especially back then, and especially in the area where my parents came from. I mean, it really was what you might call "backwoodsy".

    Anyway, when she was a little girl, the gypsies would come through every now and then. They were of Armenian descent, I guess, from the description she gave. She said a lot of people didn't like them, but she used to sneak out and go see them, and she loved them. They were nice to her. Told her stories and gave her candy and she played with the kids.

    One night, one of the women knocked on their door. She appeared to be pregnant, and said she needed some food, if they had any to spare. My grandma didn't have a lot of food to spare, but they had just harvested some potatoes, so she gave them a bunch. She had also made up some jam that day, and it was sitting on the table. After the woman left, my mom noticed that some of the jars were missing. She pointed this out to my grandma, and Grandma said, "Yes, I knew they would be, and just smiled." Many years later, they were talking, and Mom asked Grandma why she hadn't hidden the jam. Grandma told her that she left it there on purpose, and that she had known the woman was not pregnant, and that she would slip some jars under her shirt! Then she told my mom that she had, however, slipped her favorite trinket (which had also been on the table) in her pocket before she answered the door. I guess the young woman from the backwoods knew that the young gypsy woman needed something, and also how she might go about obtaining it. My point being, I guess, that everyone lived happily ever after or something like that.

    A few years before my poet-mom passed on, she wrote a beautiful piece about the gypsy wagons and the people she had met there.

    Just thought I'd jump in here and bore you with a little history from this side of the pond.:)

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  11. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Not bored that was quite a nice story.... Thanks for that.
     
  12. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    InLove, do you think you can share her words with us?


    17th. Francis made the clear distinction between NAT's (New Age Travelers) and genuine Gypsies. In that she highlighted the respect each group has for the land they occupy is key. NAT's tend as Francis says to be irresponsible and contemptuous. And they deserve to be denied welcome. Gypsies are keeping alive ancient human traditions of nomadacy and despite some character flaws they should be allowed to continue. If everybody has your 'not in my back yard' attitude tho life is made very difficult for them and hostilities mount.
    Compared to your own sedentary lifestyle that of the gypsies is hard. Look at it that they are afforded tax concessions to compensate the hardship of keeping a rich cultural tradition alive.
    That said sounds like you had NAT's ?
     
  13. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Nat... Is a very ironic way to describe them too.. :)
     
  14. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    In the US I've run across the basque, some who shepard and some who gypsy, other gypsies I think romanians, and then the homeless, the backpackers, the dirt baggers, the hobos, the hippies, the rainbows...many of these are interchangeable...

    I've spent my time on the road...and have an urge when the kids go off to college to return to the road. Probably disguize myself in an RV.

    I've squatted on many a property for varying durations, never been on welfare, never been in a food kitchen or a shelter...always under the stars or under a bridge.

    I guess the definition of Gypsy v. NAT would be if one has a family heritage of being a nomad or you just started in this generation?

    There are all types on the road, thieves, criminals, neer do wells, tax dodgers, folks genuinly down on their luck, folks with mental issues, and folks who just love the road. I've always lived in the woods, often a patch right smack dab in the middle of the city, or the middle of a clover leaf, walking distance to work and play.

    Would I have issues with a group moving in next door in my back yard, yes. Would I immediately call the police on them, no. I'd inform them that somebody will, and suggest they move on quickly before there is trouble, I'd go out and meet them inquire as to where they've been and where they are heading (ie they are not staying here).

    Mostly I've been solo on the road...for short spurts I've joined up temporarily with groups or families...the con games, the group/mob mentality the us v. them, the game ensues. I didn't like it, and have developed a negative stereotype about it that I can't shake.

    I wouldn't leave them in my backyard, but would help them to move on amicably. But it is always different strokes for different folks...and if I were in your shoes, I'd do what you do in your shoes.

    Loved the other descriptions and remiscences....
     
  15. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    Spot on. The NAT's main defining characteristic is also trash and leave tho.
     
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I would think that would come from being first generation... not having an example to follow, not realizing that they are burning bridges.

    There was a story once I read about Native Americans and there summer and winter camps, and rotating between the mountains and the valleys, living in ever expanding circles, of small villages, not staying in one place to long and the extended tribe picking central locations for the big get togethers/pow wows. The whole concept of no indoor plumbing, trash accumulating, animals, people...they'd pack up their belongings and move on as they harvested that area....and as it began to smell...let a season or two cleanse the earth and then return...when the next place began to smell...

    The problem today is that the neighbors won't wait 6 months or a year for everythign to decompose...and our trash takes longer to decompose than it used to.... So while nomads of the past had their ways....which worked with small populations, Gypsies had to adapt to city ways and keep their areas clean, and only do enough damage that would allow them to move back in and get a little more...don't take, don't con, don't destroy so much that they ban you all together....and have some character, some flavor, the song the dance, the colorful...

    Your NATS, our bums, our homeless, our dirtbaggers and hippies...haven't figured it out for the long haul...they are trying to get by on life...not create a lifestyle....
     
  17. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    Yup Wil, thats it in a nutshell.
     
  18. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    Hi TE. I am currently putting together some of her work and I am in touch with a possible publisher. I think Mom would be delighted, as she never thought her work was that good. But she did leave me a note telling me to do with it whatever I thought was right. So, I think it would be right to put it out there for others to read. :)

    So at the moment, I am being cautious about posting any of it on the Internet, because that can sometimes cause problems in the publishing process. But maybe later on, I can share some of it here. If it were my own writing, I would probably go ahead and do it, but I'm looking for the best way to honor her memory. Thanks for the interest, though! :)

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  19. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    InLove,

    Ok I understand you'r position and will keep my fingers crossed that you are successful in your plans:)

    TE
     
  20. YO-ELEVEN-11

    YO-ELEVEN-11 Watcher

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    Humans...sheesh.... Be a Gypsies for a year and see how it is before you take a stand on "if you like" or "dislike them".
    :D
     

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