The Divinity of Christ

[Thomas]

My argument is, I suppose, if we are directly children of God, then we are God by nature, are we not?

If then we are by nature divine, and I look at the world, the mess we've made of it, and what we do to each other, then the only conclusion can be that such divinity is not worth a light, is it? I mean, do I assume that Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Fred West (a local torturer and serial killer) are all divine?

I'm seeking for certitude, not sentiment.

Thomas

 

[taijasi]

No one comes to the father, but through Christ Jesus, the Son of God.
By accepting and believing in Jesus Christ, we are taking into the kingdom of God. I am a child of God, but I am not the one and only Son of God.

Ok, I can dig it ... I just believe the process takes lifetimes - and that we proceed step by step, very gradually. Nothing happens overnight, in terms of profound Spiritual changes, much as we might wish it.

So our belief is similar, just perhaps spread out in terms of different time scales ... (I don't expect to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, as such, for many, many lifetimes!) ...

 

[taijasi]

That's one interpretation. Not the scholarly one, however, and also presentedd in support of TS dogma. It is not the only interpretation, nor therefore can it be considered authoritative. Scholarship offers a considerable weight of argument to suggest otherwise — the onus is on you to provide well-founded argument to support the case, not simply quoting verses as if that's a fait accompli

Thomas

The irony is, you 've only quoted my quoting of the New Testament - and already you're talking about MY interpretation! What do you mean, Thomas?

HOW MANY WAYS are there to understand, YOU ARE ALL CHILDREN OF THER MOST HIGH?

I mean, DEAR GOD - literally - that SPEAKS FOR ITSELF!!!

I have not even INTERPRETED!!! I have simply QUOTED!!!!

This beats all ...

Thomas, you need to take two steps back, here. What do you mean, "this is not the scholarly interpretation?" LOL

Umm, so, scholarly, just HOW DO YOU read it??? Good grief!!!

If I said something like, by this, the text is suggesting we are all fish, with precisely thirteen sets of gills and the ability to descend to a depth of 2,000 feet ... okay, THEN I could see your point of contention.

But just what is there to contend??? ARGH

This is the problem quoting a simple, straight-forward piece of scripture. If you wish to drag out the Hebrew and Aramaic, or even the Greek, please - by all means, DO SO. I will entertain the effort.

But I think we will waste much time, breath and keystrokes, and find - in the end - that "MOST HIGH" is pretty darn equivalent to GOD ... and "CHILDREN OF" has a whole heckuva lot to do with - OUR RELATION TO said "GOD" ...

... and umm, "WE ARE ALL" does not mean, "only those folks down there in Indonesia, or uhhh, the people with a slightly tan complexion, in the southern hemispheres, or ehhhh - yeah, anything like that.

Jeeez, this is the part of comparative that - quite frankly - I'm sorry ... I just don't have the patience for!

You suggest, Thomas, that I'm referring to Theosophical Society "DOGMA" (wow, what a switch) because I say, we are children of God, ALL of us???

Man, I don't think we're on the same plane here AT ALL. My well-founded argument, btw, is what is in my own, God-given HEART (for Christ's sake) - not some kinda heavily hammered, 2,000 year old CREED that I'm reading off a page printed 2 or 3 decades ago, which sounds purty because it's in the language of the ecclesiasts!

Let me paraphrase all that according the trite but succinct license plates we have here in podunk, USA: "God does not create JUNK"

Now you know good and well that I do not believe that Tom, Dick and Harry are Christ in the way that Christ Jesus was/is Christ ... so man, gimmie a break. Pardon me for losing my patience with this nonsense, but how hard is it to consider Ephesians 4:13 on your own?

Sorry - I sure as heck didn't deliver the address ... I wasn't anywhere in the neighborhood. But I suspect ol' St. Paul wasn't smokin' crack when he came up with that line. Remember Ephesians 4:13?

Here's a KJV refresher:

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ
​

Notice that "ALL" in there again? Well, believe it or not, I DIDN'T insert it ... and I DIDN'T go searching through some commentary to get a clue as to what it might mean. ALL means ALL.

Go ahead - speak of the all with relevance to "Christians only." That's okay. REALLY it is. Because THEN I will challenge you to show me how the whole second half of this verse is - just suggesting that I can WORSHIP Jesus, and have a nice, happy daydream that maybe one day I can be LIKE him ... while NEVER QUITE MAKING THE MARK.

Yeah, Umm, Thomas - that is JUST what I will expect from you. And THIS is what is called TWISTING a verse to suit your own fancy. Make it FIT the doctrine, or existing DOGMA, of the Roman Catholic Church. Nevermind what the author intended. And how might we know what St. Paul actually meant?

Well, don't even consider that the old chap might somehow be around these days to bother to clarify it - no. Just LOOK AT THE SILLY PASSAGE.

No, no, nevermind. I'm sorry. That really does demand TOO MUCH of us ...

and while my sarcasm may seem biting to YOU - you have NO IDEA how this looks to ME, on the other side of the table.

I'm sorry, I haven't the patience for it, and it goes NOWHERE.

I know you are a bright man. I am sorry it makes no sense. I throw up my hands ... I admit defeat. I GIVE UP.

The failing is MINE, not yours.

Here, go do something with this towel. I must go fry a fish or something ...

 

[Dondi]

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" - John 1:12

That tell me there is a process. It is not a given.

More about adoption:

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" - Romans 8:14-16

It is from this fusion of Spirit to spirit that we are adopted and whereby we have access to the God Father to say, "Abba, Father".

 

[taijasi]

And Thomas, while I do apologize for the tirade, I do insist .. that yes, Hitler, and all those chaps, ARE literally Sparks of the one and only, DIVINE God.

It makes me very sad. But I sometimes think, too, Judas barely scratched the surface.

If there is Cosmic Good, then also - there is cosmic evil, up to a point. And sadly, if that energy has been brought to bear (perhaps prematurely) upon our little planet, then we might be dealing with ... with nasty stuff.

And THAT is why I think what happened 2000 years ago has more significance than just, the eldest Son of Men came into His own as a Divine Son of God.

But this is something for Esoteric, and not a part of normal Christian theology, imho. Between Mars, and Saturn, was once, Earth's precursor. Now, there are asteroids. That scares me.

Matter, Spirit/Energy, nothing destroyed/lost, just converted ... Souls do not die - much less Spirit. But even God has a timetable.

If this is our 2nd chance ...

ahhh, the Gnostic glimpse is echoed here, even in a heavy metal lyric, by some rather accomplished Brits. Nevermind the pride, what are they saying?

"I am terrified ... the eternal silence of these infinite spaces frightens me."

The Master is one Who has looked, and can look, into such spaces without fear. Awe, yes. Mystery, Reverence, Infinite Devotion ... but not fear.

I can't even look in the mirror without fear.

It is aburd to say that Christ's manifest Divinity is likewise manifest within each of us. It is just that the potential also exists; this is what I'm saying.

The Beauty of Christ's Sacrifice, to me, is that He has undertaken something for the sake of our planet, and for all of Humanity, which no one else was able to volunteer for. This changed things for Him, for us, and also for His own relationship with the Most High - from the very moment He accepted the various Responsibilites.

And things haven't been the same ever since. I'm not even sure we'd still be here ... if it were not for the Spiritual Hierarchy (`Christ and His Church'). Those asteroids are awful cold, and lonely, and scattered ... and I'm pretty damn sure there isn't much of an evolution going on, spread out amongst them.

Earth, on the other hand - at the present moment ...

 

[Dondi]

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" - John 10:34

In looking at statements as such it is important to look at the context. Obviously, Jesus could not be referring to men as gods in the sense of divinity, for that would be violating the very basic Jewish commandment, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" (Deut. 6:4)

Consider first who Jesus is talking to, namely the Jewish leaders of his day. He prefaces that statement by saying "Is it not written in YOUR law", not "the law", which means Jesus intends to make a point in their accusation of blasphemy that they have leveled on Him, and play the scriptures back at them.

Lets' look at the passage from which Jesus quotes, in context:

"1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations." - Psalm 82

It is clear here from verses 2 and 7 that this is not a psalm of praise, but instead it has God berating those who been place in a position of judgment over others, but have abused that authority. The word "gods" here can be interpreted as judges (elohim) or rulers, according to Strong's. So it is in this figurative sense in that these were appointed judges over Israel that they are gods, but not in any sense that they were divine. So in conclusion, Jesus is leveling back at these Jewish leaders that they are judging unjustly, by using their own scriptures back at them.

Furthermore, Psalm 96:4-5 says,

"For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.
For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens."

So even is one were to consider the use of the word "gods", any god other than the LORD God is an idol.

 

[taijasi]

You have completely missed - or avoided - the point, Dondi, by becoming distracted by the oft-quoted words which you have become so well prepared to counter. Now let's take a look at the words and phrases that matter:

ALL

CHILDREN

MOST HIGH GOD

... Hmmmm.

This was my point, not "ye are gods." No problem though. I fully expected the usual refutation. But now that that's out of the way ...

 

[Dondi]

You have completely missed - or avoided - the point, Dondi, by becoming distracted by the oft-quoted words which you have become so well prepared to counter. Now let's take a look at the words and phrases that matter:

ALL

CHILDREN

MOST HIGH GOD

... Hmmmm.

This was my point, not "ye are gods." No problem though. I fully expected the usual refutation. But now that that's out of the way ...

Ok, Let's examine that phrase "all children of the most High". But you must know that He is speaking to the children of Israel. And when did Israel become children of the most high? Not until He made a covenant with Abraham. The fruition of that promise came when Israel came out of bondage of Egypt and a covenant was made at Mount Sinai. Deut. 7:6-9 desciribes it this way:

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"

God promised Abraham that from out of him all the nations of the world will be blessed and that out of him will come a mighty nation. God adopted this nation according to the promise made to Abraham and "set his love upon" them. It was then that they became children of the most High. And eventually through this nation of israel, would come the Savior, which is Jesus Christ, through whom we receive the adoptions as sons, as I just explained.

 

[JosephM]

Dondi,

By Him all things were made and without Him there was nothing made. You are of your 'father the devil' is a figure of speech if you will receive it. We are all children of God in the sense that Andrew is speaking. ONE CAN'T HELP TO BE OTHER THAN THAT. No matter how far one drifts from God (prodigal son), you are still a child of God. No one is more special than another. There is a spark of divinity in all. Christ is the true light that lighted EVERY MAN/WOMAN that comes into the world if you can receive it.

But of course, I have no problem with you choosing to believe as it appears you do and I remain in love with you through the anointing spirit of God.

Love and Peace,
Your brother,
JM

 

[Prober]

I think of the "adoption of sons" as a literary device referring to being adopted into the covenant versus being adopted as a son.

In that respect, I'd agree with both of you (Dondi and Joseph).

Regards,
Mark

 

[JosephM]

I think of the "adoption of sons" as a literary device referring to being adopted into the covenant versus being adopted as a son.

In that respect, I'd agree with both of you (Dondi and Joseph).

Regards,
Mark

Very well put Mark. Many thanks for the input.

 

[Dondi]

Dondi,

By Him all things were made and without Him there was nothing made. You are of your 'father the devil' is a figure of speech if you will receive it. We are all children of God in the sense that Andrew is speaking. ONE CAN'T HELP TO BE OTHER THAN THAT. No matter how far one drifts from God (prodigal son), you are still a child of God. No one is more special than another. There is a spark of divinity in all. Christ is the true light that lighted EVERY MAN/WOMAN that comes into the world if you can receive it.

But of course, I have no problem with you choosing to believe as it appears you do and I remain in love with you through the anointing spirit of God.

Love and Peace,
Your brother,
JM

Whether we are adopted or naturally birthed, God loves us just the same.

 

[wil]

My argument is, I suppose, if we are directly children of God, then we are God by nature, are we not?

yes

If then we are by nature divine, and I look at the world, the mess we've made of it,

Any different than the first creations, Adam and Eve?

and what we do to each other, then the only conclusion can be that such divinity is not worth a light, is it?

Why, when your incandescent light is off is it worthless? All you need to do is decide to turn it on. G-d don't make no mistakes? Reading thru the bible, the smiting, the killing, the plagues, you see no torture, no chaos? A law to stone the adulterous is just? Or if you can justify it, can't you justify the others?

I mean, do I assume that Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Fred West (a local torturer and serial killer) are all divine?

Spark of divinity, untapped....or are they part of the process identifying to us a reason to be good, a reason to find our divinity and not wallow in our depression.

I'm seeking for certitude, not sentiment.

Aren't we all my brother, if certitude was to be had you would have no need to go to the classes you are now, no need to study as it would be laid out on the table 2000 years ago...or was it and we refuse to hear?

 

[Thomas]

I don't know. If you are God, you tell me.

 

[wil]

I don't know. If you are God, you tell me.

There we go my brother, exponential leaps.... creator and created yes....divine...yes...I and the Father are one...oneness yes. G-d and G-d alone...no...part and parcel of G-d...yes...manifestation/expression of this individualised part and parcel...yes...

But I (my fault) do not have the faucet turned up high enough to allow all the light (wisdom) to flow....I can't tell you....at this juncture.

But you (as a divine spark of the one) have the same potential connection, hence all of our occasional brilliance....

Our church principles...

God is absolute good, everywhere present.Human beings have a spark of divinity within them, the Christ Spirit within. Their very essence is of God, and therefore they are inherently good also.Human beings create their experiences by the activity of their liking. Everything in the manifest realm has its beginning in thought.Prayer is creative thinking that heightens the connection with God-Mind and therefore brings forth wisdom, healing , prosperity, and everything good. Knowing and understanding the laws of life, also called Truth, are not enough. A person must also live the Truth that he or she knows.

It is all the living upto that I am still working on...

 

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —

Sorry if I responded sharply, I was just surprised to see a new ocurrance of a doctrine that had been refuted even before the Creed was finally formulated! (I can't help but view your position as a monism.)

I understand you better now.

Thomas

 

[pattimax]

Hebrew Scriptures

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (Psalms 82:6)​

... oh, wait wait wait - my bad. You're saying we can know this without a Bible, or even Christ Jesus to tell us this (Jesus loves me, this I know - for my Bible tells me so)???​

Oh yeah. How true that is ...

Psalm 82 NKJV
1 God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods.
2 How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.
5 They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
6 I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
For You shall inherit all nations.

God (upper case “G”) accused the “gods” (lower case “g”) of having misgoverned the world. The identity of these “gods” is hard to determine. Some interpret them as spiritual powers that rule the world and others as human judges. But these alternatives are not mutually exclusive. Probably the human powers are treated as human counterparts to spiritual forces. God has determined to judge the powers and rulers who maintain a world system of oppression and injustice.
Source: Holman Bible Dictionary

Context, Context, Context...

Your bible is going to tell you anything you want it to when you just read bits and peices.

 

[pattimax]

That would be the word of Tradition, not Scripture.

Thomas

The road to Damascus isn't scriptural?

 

[wil]

God (upper case “G”) accused the “gods” (lower case “g”) of having misgoverned the world. The identity of these “gods” is hard to determine. Some interpret them as spiritual powers that rule the world and others as human judges. But these alternatives are not mutually exclusive. Probably the human powers are treated as human counterparts to spiritual forces. God has determined to judge the powers and rulers who maintain a world system of oppression and injustice.
Source: Holman Bible Dictionary

Context, Context, Context...

Your bible is going to tell you anything you want it to when you just read bits and peices.

namaste pattimax,

Do you know what the difference is in the Hebrew text between the two? I don't think they did uppercase and lowercase...if there isn't a difference in the words I wonder where it was changed, hebrew to greek or to latin or to english...

 

[pattimax]

namaste pattimax,

Do you know what the difference is in the Hebrew text between the two? I don't think they did uppercase and lowercase...if there isn't a difference in the words I wonder where it was changed, hebrew to greek or to latin or to english...

Upper and lower case were my terms. I should have just said big G and little g. God and "gods" are different.
Are you trying to change the subject?