Kuffar or Infidels?

Discussion in 'Islam' started by Muslimwoman, Jun 18, 2007.

  1. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    i would add b'tzelem, adalah, yesh gvul, yesh din, rabbis for human rights, anarchists against the wall, the women in black and machsom watch, not all of whose views and policies i endorse, but their existence is part of a healthy democracy. the same goes for women in green, the yesha council and arutz sheva, whose views i disagree with even more.

    i think you probably mean a demographic threat, as most israeli arabs vote for a mainstream party as opposed to hadash or the UAL. basically it's code for "arabs have too many babies". i personally find it not just revolting, but entirely hypocritical given that an arguably larger threat exists to israeli democracy with regards to the birth rates of the ultra-orthodox.

    i thought it was lieberman or benny elon someone else like that. i loathe all of them. bibi in particularly chills my blood with his populism and, unfortunately, he's the only one that comes across on TV as not being an inarticulate, mumbling banana-republic embarrassment. "eeeah, ze terroristeek eenfrastructure, eahhhhh..." and so on. sheesh, can't they afford english lessons?

    as i think i've already pointed out, subtlety is not generally recognised as being the israelis' strong suit in interpersonal or political matters, which is very sad when you see what they're capable of in science, technology and academia, to say nothing of the religious disciplines.

    a pair of my cousins and their kids live in m-s; they seem to have succeeded in alienating most of the rest of the family - isn't it often the way... as for my relatives in the north, my auntie is well known on her moshav for refusing to go into the shelter, because if her number's up, it's up and if not, then she'll be fine - besides, my uncle can't smoke in there. she is kind of a hard-arse though.

    you're not the only one.

    i wish i could wave this quote at all the idiots in europe who think that israeli soldiers are the devil incarnate and wake up in the morning wondering how many children they can shoot. the anti-israel propaganda bandwagon is very strong. i sometimes wonder why i haven't gone and given the palestinian who works four desks away from me a good kicking if i'm like that.

    people just don't *think*, do they?

    it's not offensive. i just don't think these guys understand what the concept of eretz yisrael is supposed to be. the state is a different beast entirely. look, i had an excellent zionist education, i'm a graduate of the institute for youth leaders from abroad in jerusalem, i'm pretty religious by most people's standards (if not by that of right-wing loonies) but messianic delusions have caused us no end of pain over the centuries. and who said the nation-state of all things was a religious entity? until people start seeing "eretz yisrael" as a religious concept for the purposes of halakhah and not a political one (which would allow jews to live all over the middle east, presumably anywhere between the nile and the euphrates) and count themselves as if they were living "ba-aretz" *REGARDLESS OF THE POLITICAL AUTHORITY OF WHICH THEY ARE A CITIZEN* we are locked into a stupid political endgame whch requires hebron, shechem/nablus and tekoa to be ethnically cleansed of jews and means arabs can't get a fair deal in tel aviv, ra'anana or carmiel. the separation wall is a symptom of our inability to find solutions, for all that it is effective in preventing attacks. i'm not suggesting that we remove it, but i would rather make it obsolete, like the berlin wall and, hopefully, the nation-state itself.

    hur, hur, hur, "maniak!!"

    the advertising and PR industries in israel are dominated by english people and americans. my wife and i have a joke about this which is basically around how an israeli ad campaign would go:

    "buy eet. ees good. if you don't like, don't buy. i don't care. you're an eediot."

    *cough* klal yisrael *cough*.

    there was rather a lot of ironic amusement over here about that.

    although i note that yasser abd rabbo said the whole thing was a put-up job in order to enable hamas to gain a propaganda victory - although, let's face it, he would say that. but i don't think i'd put it past them.

    just a small thing FYI - "semitic" is a term from comparative lingustics. there's no such thing as "semites" in an ethnic sense - you only have to look at the ethnic diversity of both jews and arabs to see it. obviously, i am not suggesting for a moment that you are doing this, but most people who talk about "semites" are doing it in order to say "i can't be anti-semitic, i'm a semite myself" - to which i always reply, ok, then, does the term "jew-hater" work for ya?

    if you have the time and are interested, i encourage you to visit Pickled Politics, a so-called "progressive" (that's code for "left-wing") blog where there are quite a lot of daft opinions about israel and palestine, although it's really about topics of interest to anyone brown - as an indian/iraqi jew i appear to qualify, he said, tongue-in-cheek. i'm a regular poster there. the same goes for you, muslimwoman.

    you can take the girl out of london, but you can't take london out of the girl, eh, mw? next you'll be saying mubarak says "poo-arrrrrr" in front of all his sentences.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  2. KarimK

    KarimK New Member

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    Yes, demographic threat... Don't know why I said democratic. :rolleyes:
    And I'm preeeeetty sure it was Netanyahu.
    here :

    Netanyahu: Israel's Arabs are the real demographic threat - Haaretz - Israel News

    :D
    Oh well, we're not doing any better on our side of the border. And YES! I was AMAZED last time I heard Netanyahu speak! Did he take English lessons or something? Seriously, unless I'm hallucinating, he used to have a really HEAVY accent before, right?

    This is what I will never ever understand about Israel. The best medical facilities in the world, brilliant in technology, outstanding Universities on one hand... and you've got pigs on the other.

    Well, what can I tell you. You're not a real Jew.

    Did you ever notice that when you go into a store (especially in Jerusalem), the guy really makes you feel that you are disturbing him - he was about to take his afternoon nap - and you're not welcome?

    Really? I thought it was pathetic. I can understand that some people may not want a Gay Parade to happen in Jerusalem but I still think it's stupid. I mean, come on.
    But it was just funny, you know? Suddenly, they all loved each other! "yes, yes! Even the Jews [because very obviously the Jews are the epitome of evil], they won't stand that!" Ah, the day of the Parade, I feigned ignorance and asked a taxi what was happening. "Oh, you know. Jews fighting". Obviously, there are no Arab homosexuals. Homosexuality is probably a Jewish conspiracy anyway.

    Thanks, I honestly didn't know that. I always thought "semitic" applied both for a set of languages and for an ethnicity... which is stupid, come to think of it, because of the diversity of both Jews and Arabs. Ah, well, at least now I know. :)

    Tell me! Tell me! Is there a Jewish community in India? Is it a big community? How did it get there? I met Muslims, Hindus, Christians in India, but no Jews.

    (oh! I know! I read somewhere that the 10 lost tribes of Israel reappeared in India. that must be it :p)

    I didn't know that about Eretz Yisrael - thanks. Does that mean can Eretz Yisrael can exist anywhere in the world?

    As for the Wall.. I have a huge problem. I think the Wall cannot be justified in any way. Yet, when anyone asks me : "Ok. Forget the ethical aspect of the thing as regards the Palestinians. But can you honestly tell me that the Wall didn't reduce suicide bombings?"
    Well, it's true - the wall did reduce suicide bombings. What can I say? It's the worst solution anyone could ever find, it disregards all sorts of human rights laws that were supposedly universal, it disregards international law, moral law, it took even MORE lands from the Palestinian Territories, but if we have to be pragmatic, there are statistically less suicide bombings today.

    MW :

    Oh no, that's definitely not a problem. I mean we all have Muslim friends. But when it comes to marriage. Well, suddenly, we're like two different peoples, different values (which is true to an extent, but different values don't make intermarriages impossible), different worldviews, whatever.

    I like th Herald Tribune article you posted ... "Of the many things one should not mention in polite company in Egypt, friction between Muslims and Christians is near the top of the list." Same thing over here. Except that we may talk about it as long as we're between ourselves. If a foreigner asks, all of a sudden we just looooooove each other.

    oh, one last thing, BB :

    See, this is cool. Jews and Arabs share a LOT of swear words! I think we should have swear words and general lack of any driving etiquette (or etiquette in general) as a basis for building a future bi-national state. :cool:
     
  3. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Oy gevalt, vot do you vorry for ze eenfrastructure, come my son eat chicken soup. Vot, a mother not allowed to care for her children, just schleping all day, nobody call her, nobody care for her. You marry a girl, can't cook, can't clean just vork and still no grandchildren, oy vey. I told you, didn't I tell you. Eat, eat. I didn't see you at synagogue this week, vy? Mrs Zimmermann was there, you should see vot that woman has done .........................

    Reminds me of another group of people who shall remain nameless but are also holding themselves back with politics and intollerence. Oops now who could I mean?

    :eek: You mean you haven't? What are you waiting for? Sorry but the stereotype handbook says you are a Jew so you have to be intollerent and aggressive, whilst plotting to take over the worlds economic system - will you please get on and read the book, we are waiting for an excuse to hate you. ;)

    Have you heard about Karim, he's off to blow up a cafe this weekend and I'm off to protest in the streets (no idea what for but someone is bound to insult my religion before tomorrow).

    LMAO. I do wish Mrs BB was inclined to come and discuss with us, she sounds like an amazing woman.

    I'm on my way, thank you.

    It's so true, we are just a culmination of our experiences - phew that explains why I'm so mixed up then. :p

    I would never say such a thing about our beloved leader, or indeed suggest he says "cash not cheque" at the end of every meeting.
     
  4. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Please, please, please teach me some arabic swear words. Nobody will teach me any because "ladies don't swear". Imagine my husbands face when I get back and the first row we have I swear at him (well he swears at me but he thinks I don't know they are swear words - osomack is his favourite). :p:D
     
  5. KarimK

    KarimK New Member

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    WHAT?

    You don't know any swear words?! :eek:

    What a shame! shame, shame, shame! haram!

    The Arabic language is at its most beautiful when it comes to swear words!
    Okay, perhaps not "most beautiful", but definitely at its most creative!

    I don't know if the Egyptians swear like we do, but "osomak" doesn't mean anything... unless you put a "k" before --> "kos omak" I'll leave it at that. You try to figure it out. Not hard, you know that "omak"/"omek" means "your mother" :D

    are you fluent in Arabic? Can you read/write? If so, I really, truly respect you. It's not easy. At all. Especially for someone who isn't born 'in it'. (I mean I can't write or read properly... it's more in the lines of deciphering)
     
  6. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    There we go then, I can't judge that until I learn some, so it can be an educational experience for me. ;)

    :eek::mad::eek: My husband calls me this when we argue. Wait till I see him again {MW rolls up sleeves and prepares to give a right tongue lashing}. Oh I missed the "k". The little sh*t, he is really in trouble now.

    You are doing better than I am, I am still being taught to write the alphabet by my 7 year old brother in law :eek: All I can read and write are the numbers and of course some religious words, which have no other day to day use. I am getting there with conversation, as long as people talk slowly. Once all the family sit and chat together I get a bit lost (mainly because they can have 3 different conversations at the same time) but can generally get the gist of what they are saying by picking up key words but I can't really join in yet. My sister in law doesn't speak english but she now understands my form of arabic and always tries to translate things into arabic words she knows I understand.
     
  7. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    as far as i remember, he always spoke perfect american - of course in europe and even in the UK, that just confirms that israel is really just an outpost of america in the middle east. which it isn't, despite it being convenient for many people to think so.

    i guess that's what they have to thank the nazis and the arab-israeli conflict for - a siege mentality and the idea that everyone is out to get them; which, incidentally, does not always appear to be completely without foundation. add to that the idea that if they don't stick up from themselves the world will just shrug as they are exterminated and it all adds up to a certain "sod you all" attitude to say the least which unfortunately operates internally as well as externally, despite sometimes being refreshing in its directness.

    hur, hur, hur. we're having lunch together instead.

    hehehe. that's right, they're doing you a favour deigning to serve you in order that your drab little life can be brightened up by their rare and precious products. they must have learned this from guitar shops.

    hur, hur, hur. funny, we always blame the greeks. and the persians. and the romans. personally, i always find it somewhat amusing that the pashtouns, the tribe that produced the taleban, have a folk song which goes "there's a boy across the river with a bottom like a peach but, alas! i cannot swim!"

    the main community is arabic speaking (actually, more like was) from baghdad and dates back about 2-300 years, but there's another community, the "bene israel" who have been there a really long time and speak marathi, then there's the cochinis who have been there at least a thousand years but there are very few of them left and then the bene menashe who are the chaps you heard about who are presently in the process of coming to israel. most of the indian jews are now in london or israel. of course the baghdadi community dates back to 586 BCE when it was babylon, before there were arabs there even, but the jewish community in iraq (like that of egypt, lebanon, syria, libya and most other muslim countries) was expelled in 1948 after the establishment of the state of israel and, of course, most of them went to israel - with rather a jaundiced view of arabs, unsurprisingly.

    nope. the borders are given in the Torah, but they describe a really large piece of land, sometimes called "greater israel" by both extreme right-wingers and conspiracy theorists. nobody reasonable thinks israeli sovereignty should extend all the way from the nile to the euphrates and, thankfully, only some a small number of nutters even considers it. as it is politically untenable, it seems to me (and i do not know how widely shared this idea is) that the concept of "Eretz Yisrael" has halakhic implications which could in theory operate regardless of national sovereignty. thus, agricultural and cultic laws such as shemittah, yovel and ma'aser could easily be observed whether or not they are taking place in a location under israeli sovereignty, as long as they are within the halakhic borders of Eretz Yisrael. you will no doubt immediately note that this is an idealistic position (as it implies that lebanon, syria, egypt, iraq, jordan and probably bits of saudi would have jewish citizens) but nevertheless one which is politically possible in a context of peace. it is also, dare i say it, messianically viable because in this way a majority of jews would be able to live in Eretz Yisrael" regardless of whether they were citizens of medinat yisrael - and, therefore, would put less pressure on the non-jewish inhabitants of Eretz Yisrael in terms of resources and living space. a halakhic solution is a sine qua non of a complete solution to the challenge of the "ingathering of the exiles" as well as that of wider middle east peace. in such a context, even a bi-national state need not be any bar to a halakhic solution - as long as the halakhah does not recognise the *state* as a halakhic entity, which so far it has not, although not for any sensible, pragmatic, forward-thinking reasons, unfortunately.

    and that is pretty much all the justification it needs from my side of things. on the other hand, i completely abhor the *political* hijacking of a security concept in order to grab more land which it undeniably has been used to do - this has tainted the entire concept. i guess the only thing i can say is that the berlin wall wasn't permanent, nor were the northern ireland peace walls, so there is no reason to believe that this wall cannot be removed as part of a peace process. it is, of course, a consummation devoutly to be wished, as, quite apart from being inconvenient, it's also an eyesore. so i can agree with you, the sooner it is made obsolete, the better.

    i read asharq al-awsat and they say something rather similar in there - if you don't read it already, i advise you to...

    hur hur hur hur hur - now you see, that's what you're missing out on in egypt: spitting image!

    i agree - most israelis swear in arabic for this very reason. however, for sheer pungency, rhythm and inventiveness, i have to give the prize to punjabi.

    mw - i've got a cd called "in-flight arabic" which is really easy to use, although it'll teach you gulf arabic, not egyptian. but you can easily just swap your j's for g's. unfortunately, my arabic still isn't very good, although my accent is, due to my born-again commitment to iraqi pronunciation of liturgical hebrew, which i still maintain is the oldest and purest (if you don't count yemeni).

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2007
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I met Issac at a health food store...heavy Indian accent...I can't tell one group of people from another by their looks. So then he tells me his last name...decidedly Jewish name...and Isaac suddenly clicks...

    So Isaac, you are not Indian, not Hindu?

    Oh, no, I am an Iranian Jew!

    Turns out his family left Iran when whoever took power prior to the time we put the Shah into power....thousands of Jews fled persecution he said...so there are large Iranian Jewish communities...

    Funny he still considers himself an Iranian Jew, he is now a US citizen, born in India...but if you ask him...he's not an American, not IndianAmerican, or Iranian American but an Iranian Jew that is a US citizen.
     
  9. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Cursing is such a tricky thing...say the wrong thing and it comes out completely weird or unintentionally beyond cursing and insultingly rude...
     
  11. KarimK

    KarimK New Member

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    Oh God, you told your husband kos emak? LMAO, what did you tell him when he asked who taught you this expression?

    I should have warned you, seriously, this particular expression is to use only in veeeeery delicate situations. Men don't like to hear someone tell them something about their mother's c*nt. As wil says, it IS tricky.

    I never thought you'd actually tell him kos emak, LOL.

    I'm going to hit the next person who does the "What's the 51st American state" joke to me again. Although it's true that whenever I go to Jerusalem (when I can :)), I hear more and more English-speaking people.

    With an American accent.

    As for Netnayahu, I was under the impression that he used to be part of the "eeeee" band. oh well.

    LOL. reminds me of Abu Nawas' poems where he really wants to ride that youthful, vigorous stag. Oh, my. Abu Nawas was an Arab.

    True. But on my side of the Wall, things are pretty different. The fact that it prevents suicide bombings does not justify it. In any way, to me. The Palestinian people are living in a cage. Literally, it's an open-sky prison. I'll spare you the tedious *blahblahblah apartheid blahblahblah ghetto* talk. I don't think we can compare what is happening here with South Africa. But the wall is separating families, people, villages. It is a hindrance. Not a mild hindrance. It swallowed up a whole part of my horizon.

    And if there's one thing I don't like, it's having one part of my very beautiful bethlehemite (hm?) horizon disappearing. The first few months, I'd feel completely asphyxiated whenever I saw the wall. And then, it started getting INTO town (a whole weird maze thing was built so that Rachel's Tomb could be on the Israeli side of the wall... which means that parts of the wall are now really inside Bethlhem). From some high points, you can see the wall, it looks like a huge grey snake running around. I don't like snakes. Especially huge, scary ones.

    I don't like feeling I'm being treated like an animal. I've been to Berlin. I have no idea how these two walls could ever be compared. Ours is bigger. A lot. And it's on the scale of a whole country. (okay, it's a small country(ies) we have there, but still).

    I realize this is just the talk of a spoiled kid who doesn't like seeing an ugly wall every day (because, seriously, who am I to complain? I don't live in a refugee camp or in the huge slum that is the Gaza strip. I'm well off. I have the internet. I'm going to study outside next year. No dire straits for me.) but you really have to imagine - and it's really harder than you think - the humiliation that is this wall. We're being caged. And you know what pisses me the most?

    This wall constantly reminds me of how animal I - we - are. I got used to it. Now, I can walk next to the wall and not feel shadowed or scared or not have a claustrophobic attack anymore. Because it's normal. It's like a dog in a cage. I honestly think that I'd feel lost if suddenly the wall disappeared.

    I can't argue with you on the effectiveness (I don't like saying that but whatever) of the wall. But it'll never ever ever be justified to me.

    The wall is blatantly disregarding tons of basic human rights. and the worst thing is the Israeli government is doing it so ... carelessly, you know? It's like, they can afford to do, they will do it, and they really don't care what others think.

    Oh! nice detail! Whenever you come to Israel just GO check out the Bethlehem check-point. I honestly think the Ministry of Tourism has some sort of sick sense of humor.
    A couple of months (or more? I still feel like the wall was built a year ago) ago, they put on this HUUUUUGE poster with the caption (in English, Hebrew and Arabic) : "Peace be with you". Which translates as : "God help you, you're going into this madhouse".

    THEN. They put up all around the check-point these posters - pictures of Bethlehem and Jerusalem with this HILARIOUS caption : "Jerusalem - Bethlechem - Love" or something like that. I'm not sure if it said "Love" or "Peace" but it was something in that area. (I haven't been there for a long time).

    I especially like the way they wrote Bethlehem. It's full of understood niceties :)

    BB, I really hope one day you can cross a check-point like the one we have in Bethlehem. I think you'll change your mind once you've done that.

    I'll be happy to guide you through it :D
     
  12. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Bless him, he saw the humour in it eventually but was just so shocked I had used such an awful word in his own language. Me naughty.
     
  13. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Oh so it's ok for him to say it to me every time we have a row? At least I said it as a joke, he means usually means it.

    I told him it is a young Palestinian man I talk with on a religious site, he is cool with it but perhaps hopes you won't teach me any more LOL

    Bet he never calls me it again LMAO

    I watched a news report recently about a poor chap whose steps to his home are actually on the border, so he has to have a special pass to enter his own home. He can stand on the steps but must go every 3 months to get permission to go from his steps into his home. How can anyone be expected to live like this? :(

    Isn't the comparison with the Berlin wall the separation of people? The Berlin wall seperated families for so many years.
     
  14. KarimK

    KarimK New Member

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    you know I don't think that :p

    lots of stories like that. it's really absurd, at times, I honestly feel I'm living in some sort of warped reality. Sometimes, things get so weird, so outlandish that I really wonder if it's real or not.

    I know people who wake up every day, open the window, and have the wall, there, right in front of them. they can touch it and all. beautiful view, you gotta say.

    Yesssssssssssssssss, but ours is sooooooooo huge! :eek: (this really needs a puppy-eyes smiley)
     
  15. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Isn't that where the art and poetry came from on the Berlin wall? I spent hours reading the poetry, it was so heart wrenching. It was a peaceful protest, an expression of people's frustration on both sides of the wall.

    Something that changed my life and view of life (you may not know I was born and largely raised in Germany) was the "atmosphere" at the wall and in the death camps, it is actually tangible, there is a weight in the air. People will think I am even more crazy than usual but I hope you will know what I mean with your experience of a wall.

    Oh that is just so 'male' of you, everything has to come down to size ..... "mine's bigger than yours" LOL A cage is a cage no matter how big or small and you know what they say "it's not the size that counts but what you do with it". So get your paint brushes out and start writing poetry, clearly there is enough space.

    (I know I shouldn't laugh but if we didn't laugh we would cry).
     
  16. KarimK

    KarimK New Member

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    Yes I read a discussion somewhere on the forum about the Nazis and how the Jews lied and stuff and you said your dad was a specialist about WWII Germany.

    I did feel that atmosphere in Berlin. Especially in Saxenhausen, the concentration camp in the suburbs of Berlin. It felt so wrong.

    Well. This is true about art. Definitely. Although I wouldn't say poetry. The people who write on the wall (usually foreigners who think they're saving the world) write really shitty stuff like : "to exist is to resist!". Which is a fine statement, but after a while, it really gets on your nerves.

    The drawings on the other hand... Some of them are really beautiful. Some guy drew on several parts of the wall a huge window or a hole that gave on a beautiful landscape - seaside or a green field. It's really beautiful. Also, someone drew the shadow of a little girl holding helium balloons and going up up up.

    [​IMG]

    I think it's absolutely amazing, this picture. The little girl could just very well be the blue-veiled woman.


    Also, this, which I find really great Face2Face Project


    I was afraid someone would notice that. But I don't care. Mine is bigger than yours (the walls, I mean :D) and that's that. :p
     
  17. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

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    Some years ago I was at Bergen-Belsen and what you say is, unfortunately right. Is it because we know what happened there or is there more? Why is nothing growing there? Why are there no birds to be heard?

    The other "tangible" atmosphere I have experienced was in the crypt at Assisi. But that was a good, tingling, feeling.

    s.
     
  18. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    I am so pleased someone else knows what I mean, I was told about the birds and trees but didn't really believe it until I saw it. I remember the celebrations when the wall came down and the world sighed with relief and we all thought it would never happen again. Perhaps, sadly, mankind is slower at learning than we thought.
     
  19. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I so look forward to seeing more of the world...and your part of the world is definitely on the list...I know the offer wasn't to me, but I hope to take you up on it someday...
     
  20. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    You and your family would also receive a warm welcome in Egypt Wil, if you are in the Middle East. We don't have any big walls but we have a tomb or two worth talking about. The offer is always there if you ever make it our way.
     

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