Fasting/Abstinence

[Dondi]

It occurred to me this week that fasting is rather closely connected to abstinence, if not the same. For instance, I once went on a five day food fast, whereby I only drank water. What I noticed is that for the first couple of days, it was a struggle as the initial hunger pangs struck and the desire for food reached a peak, but then after that the hunger pains basically went away for the remainder of the fast (probably due the the physiological adjustment to seek nourishment from the fat cells of the body rather than the digestive contents from the stomach).

The past few weeks, I've kinda had a similar experience with my sexual desires. I'd been abstaining partly because I was praying and serving the Lord for certain events at church that involved evangelistic efforts to reach people for Christ. I wanted to serve God with a pure heart so that I would be more effective in my service, including avoiding those behaviors not necessarly convenient to my spiritual health (nuff said about that).

What I found is that after a few days, much of the sexual urging subsided and I'm currently at the point that I'm not even tempted by desire (it helps when the significant other is, shall we say, indisposed at the moment). So it seems that I've experienced a similar phenomena with the sexual fast as I did with the hunger fast.

Can anyone else concur with this or have any thoughts on the matter?

 

[LeoSalinas22]

Dondi,

you are truly blessed if you could pull this off. my problem is my significant other in this issue. when it comes to food, she has to feed me. i guess it is a "motherly" instinct in her and she worries to death if i don't eat! so she tempts me in this regards. i guess i am weak for this sort of thing but believe you me, i do want to fast. maybe i should sit down and talk with this woman. as far as sex goes, that is a major issue on my part. mainly because i just can't get enough of it. by the third day i just can't keep my hands off of myself! should i just cut them off? sorry, i am just being silly, but it is true what they say, " the greatest enemy is the "self"." i am not very good at disciplining myself i guess, but dondi, i will have you know that you have inspired me. praise God!

 

[Impqueen]

Why is sex not good for your spiritual health?

I think fasting works rather like the drugs used in some shamanic cultures. That's not dismissing it - I see it as a technique for reaching an altered state of consciousness in which one is more open to spiritual experiences.... or hallucinations if you're feeling cynical. I don't use it because I'm a glutton and feel really horrible if I forget to have breakfast, or leave lunch a little late....

 

[LeoSalinas22]

Why is sex not good for your spiritual health?

hi impqueen,
because sex is for the flesh. the flesh is never satisfied because of our carnal nature. so the more you have sex, the more you want it. like food. now the whole thing about serving God is you have to reject yourself to become closer to Him. if you can't reject your desires that are mostly in the flesh, then you can't approach God because He is Spirit. He isn't a man who desires intercourse. yeah, i know how it feels to be without food and it really chaps my arse! so it is very hard to fast, both sexually and with food.

 

[Dondi]

Why is sex not good for your spiritual health?

Not sex itself. I find sex in the proper context to be very spiritual, that is within those intimate moments between me and my spouse. But I consider certain other 'activities' to be 'distracting' to my walk with God. Nothing detrimental to my marriage, but I'd rather not go into details.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Why is sex not good for your spiritual health?

It keeps you in bed on a sunday morning when the church bells ring. Which conveniently mask from your neighbours your own cries of hallelujah

I think fasting works rather like the drugs used in some shamanic cultures. That's not dismissing it - I see it as a technique for reaching an altered state of consciousness in which one is more open to spiritual experiences.... or hallucinations if you're feeling cynical. I don't use it because I'm a glutton and feel really horrible if I forget to have breakfast, or leave lunch a little late....

Thats it in its entirety. Nutrient levels have a huge effect on brain chemistry.

Tao

 

[Dondi]

I think fasting works rather like the drugs used in some shamanic cultures. That's not dismissing it - I see it as a technique for reaching an altered state of consciousness in which one is more open to spiritual experiences.... or hallucinations if you're feeling cynical. I don't use it because I'm a glutton and feel really horrible if I forget to have breakfast, or leave lunch a little late....

I dunno, I don't associate fasting as being similiar to taking shamanic drugs. Rather there is a cleansing process and a greater focus on spiritual matters, perhaps a greater appreciation for God's provision of food on the table. And empathy and compassion for those who don't, which may lead me to action.

The guide on fasting I go by is found in Isaiah 58:5-10

"Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy reward.
Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day:"

 

[Tao_Equus]

hi impqueen,
because sex is for the flesh. the flesh is never satisfied because of our carnal nature. so the more you have sex, the more you want it. like food. now the whole thing about serving God is you have to reject yourself to become closer to Him. if you can't reject your desires that are mostly in the flesh, then you can't approach God because He is Spirit. He isn't a man who desires intercourse. yeah, i know how it feels to be without food and it really chaps my arse! so it is very hard to fast, both sexually and with food.

Sorry but I find that argument a load of poppycock. There are fewer experiences more spiritual than coming together in sexual union with the one you love. In my opinion all this rubbish about sex being sinful or a hindrance to spiritual development is 100% part of the politics and weakness of men, and emotions like jealousy, and nothing to do with God. The only people who tend to think about sex relentlessly are those that aint getting any.

Tao

 

[LeoSalinas22]

Sorry but I find that argument a load of poppycock. There are fewer experiences more spiritual than coming together in sexual union with the one you love. In my opinion all this rubbish about sex being sinful or a hindrance to spiritual development is 100% part of the politics and weakness of men, and emotions like jealousy, and nothing to do with God. The only people who tend to think about sex relentlessly are those that aint getting any.

Tao

tao, are you even spiritual? just curious. i never said that sex is sinful just that it targets the flesh. i love my wife in all, but what if we were to have an accident where my pipi and her cha cha were lost? what then? does that mean that our spirituality would be lost? i don't think so. the spirituality gained betwix a man and a woman is like 98% love for one another and then about 2% of the hank panky. so there will be many issues in the future if you base your marriage on sex only and not unconditional love for one another. besides, how would you know i don't get any? how do you know if i am not a sex machine? i just am the way i am. i can't help it.

 

[Impqueen]

i never said that sex is sinful just that it targets the flesh. i love my wife in all, but what if we were to have an accident where my pipi and her cha cha were lost? what then? does that mean that our spirituality would be lost? i don't think so. the spirituality gained betwix a man and a woman is like 98% love for one another and then about 2% of the hank panky. so there will be many issues in the future if you base your marriage on sex only and not unconditional love for one another. besides,

I don't think the hanky-panky is separate from the spiritual though. I'm sure if my partner and I were to find ourselves suddenly unable to have sex, we'd cope (though it'd take some getting used to ). The physical side of our relationship is only partly sex anyway, hugs and kisses and falling asleep cuddled up together are more important than the sex, but the sex is still fun and important too. IMO sex uses the body but that doesn't have to be its only focus (though it can be and that can be a lot of fun too ). I have to mostly agree with Tao.

On fasting - I don't think i could concentrate on spiritual matters if my gut was attempting to eat me from the inside. But that's just me - I'm weak

 

[Tao_Equus]

tao, are you even spiritual? just curious. i never said that sex is sinful just that it targets the flesh. i love my wife in all, but what if we were to have an accident where my pipi and her cha cha were lost? what then? does that mean that our spirituality would be lost? i don't think so. the spirituality gained betwix a man and a woman is like 98% love for one another and then about 2% of the hank panky. so there will be many issues in the future if you base your marriage on sex only and not unconditional love for one another. besides, how would you know i don't get any? how do you know if i am not a sex machine? i just am the way i am. i can't help it.

lol, I never suggested "you" were not, it was a generalisation. Most people, men and women, have a reasonable sex drive and enjoy having sex. My point is that some religions try to interfere in these natural drives by inferring lust is sinful and wrong except for procreation. These ideas were spawned by a supposedly celibate elite that are frankly jealous and peeved that they aint getting any. That seems simplistic I know but sometimes you do not need fancy theories to see the blatantly obvious. The truth is tho that they themselves were often anything but celibate. You ever heard the expression, "the guilty protest their innocence the loudest"?

Sex is an animal drive in us, its the most important drive of all, without which there might be no next generation. It is driven by chemistry not by thought. When a man and a woman live together the rate they have sex increases around the time of ovulation due to chemical cues. It has been scientifically demonstrated that chemical signatures play a fundamental role in compatibility. These signatures allow us to unconsciously choose a good mating partner in terms of a good genetic match. Once together such a match will naturally have sex often till conception is achieved. However as animals with a highly developed conciousness this can lead to over-rides being created for a variety of reasons. From traumatic experience to socially imposed taboo's they are often powerful enough to overshadow our natural inclinations. But it is our natural inclinations that work best for us. Someone with a normal healthy sex life is usually happier, more confident and more successful in all areas of life. Having sex releases hormones that make us happy. An the opposite is true too. Celibacy can cause depression, social exclusion and a sense of failure. Physically it is also now being shown to have many adverse effects of the body, for men in particular. Celibate men who do not masturbate have a far higher chance of testicular cancer.

I have gone through periods of celibacy between my relationships and it has never been a difficult thing for me personally. My sex drive drops off if I am not exposed to the chemical cues. When I did get horny at such times then a quick tug would soon sort it out. The problem with a self-imposed celibacy within a relationship is that you will constantly be receiving cues that you must struggle to defy. This can lead to frustration, anger and problems in a relationship. Sex is not the be all and end all of any relationship but very often it is the barometer of one. i like it when it points to sunny

Spiritual? Me? Why do people keep asking me that? I have a deeply spiritual aspect I think. Its just a little unconventional. But I like to think it is honest.

Tao

 

[LeoSalinas22]

Not sex itself. I find sex in the proper context to be very spiritual, that is within those intimate moments between me and my spouse. But I consider certain other 'activities' to be 'distracting' to my walk with God. Nothing detrimental to my marriage, but I'd rather not go into details.

perhaps you can help me in this matter in regards to these "distracting activities", dondi. you of course don't have to respond, but you would be doing good to your neighbor if you gave me some advice. pm me if you have to. i too am often disctracted in this world. thanks.

 

[LeoSalinas22]

hey tao,

lol, I never suggested "you" were not, it was a generalisation. Most people, men and women, have a reasonable sex drive and enjoy having sex. My point is that some religions try to interfere in these natural drives by inferring lust is sinful and wrong except for procreation. These ideas were spawned by a supposedly celibate elite that are frankly jealous and peeved that they aint getting any. That seems simplistic I know but sometimes you do not need fancy theories to see the blatantly obvious. The truth is tho that they themselves were often anything but celibate. You ever heard the expression, "the guilty protest their innocence the loudest"?

oh, i thought you were talking to me, sorry, my bad. anyhoo, you are right we aren't supposed to be denying what is naturally ours, namely sex. it is a gift, not to be abused or made a "god". but to be enjoyed. yeah, i did have sex before marriage and it is very wrong in God's eyes, but the burning of the loins are supposed to be easily resolved with marriage. so celibacy doesn't sound very reasonable or something to attain for because you will just end up shooting yourself in the foot. if your body doesn't get you then your thoughts will. if your thoughts don't get you then your eyes will and so forth. you just can't escape. this reminds me of what paul said in one of his letters:
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Sex is an animal drive in us, its the most important drive of all, without which there might be no next generation. It is driven by chemistry not by thought. When a man and a woman live together the rate they have sex increases around the time of ovulation due to chemical cues. It has been scientifically demonstrated that chemical signatures play a fundamental role in compatibility. These signatures allow us to unconsciously choose a good mating partner in terms of a good genetic match. Once together such a match will naturally have sex often till conception is achieved. However as animals with a highly developed conciousness this can lead to over-rides being created for a variety of reasons. From traumatic experience to socially imposed taboo's they are often powerful enough to overshadow our natural inclinations. But it is our natural inclinations that work best for us. Someone with a normal healthy sex life is usually happier, more confident and more successful in all areas of life. Having sex releases hormones that make us happy. An the opposite is true too. Celibacy can cause depression, social exclusion and a sense of failure. Physically it is also now being shown to have many adverse effects of the body, for men in particular. Celibate men who do not masturbate have a far higher chance of testicular cancer.

and this is where the point of the thread comes back. attaining more spitituality through fasting of sex. sex is mainly for the sake of the flesh and not spirituality. as you mentioned it is mainly for man to reproduce. and from what i understand correctly you are saying that the more sex you have, the more successful in life you will be? that sounds awfully materialistic to me! again, if you are successful in material then it is for the flesh. unless i misunderstand, care to clarify?

When I did get horny at such times then a quick tug would soon sort it out.

lmao! sorry. i guess the 13 year old in me acts up sometimes. say wouldn't this be a funny thread. names for masturbation? oh, well...

Spiritual? Me? Why do people keep asking me that? I have a deeply spiritual aspect I think. Its just a little unconventional. But I like to think it is honest.

the reason i ask is because it seems like you tend to base ones self worth on material gain in this world. well, that was what i thought.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Ty Leo

and this is where the point of the thread comes back. attaining more spitituality through fasting of sex. sex is mainly for the sake of the flesh and not spirituality. as you mentioned it is mainly for man to reproduce. and from what i understand correctly you are saying that the more sex you have, the more successful in life you will be? that sounds awfully materialistic to me! again, if you are successful in material then it is for the flesh. unless i misunderstand, care to clarify?

Again its a bit of a generalisation and even then I do not mean more sex = more material success. Rather that those with a healthy sex life tend to be happier and more well rounded and balanced.

the reason i ask is because it seems like you tend to base ones self worth on material gain in this world. well, that was what i thought.

Well I am not at all materialistic, wealth holds no attraction for me, I have few possessions and an old beat up banger for a car. I rent rather than own my own home. The 2 businesses I started were both more to do with trying out ecological initiatives than making a profit. Money never bought me anything really worth having and so I view it more as a necessity to meet my practical, limited needs than something to collect just for the sake of being rich. I have not found any religion / belief system that encompasses how I feel about creation so I walk alone. I do not believe the universe to be here by chance alone and I am in awe and wonder at the myriad aspects and infinite beauty of what I see. This is what I call my spirituality.

Regards

Tao

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

O.K, I'm 43, and I don't have a problem resisting sex. We're talking sex with the wife, right? Maybe it's just me, but sex is a friggin' chore half the time. Maintenance sex, that's what it is. Now I know, I know we men have to have our pride, but the fact is...it's women who want sex all the time. My wife would laugh her ass off if I suggested that I was giving up sex for Lent!

As one of a vanishing breed of slender people, I don't have the problem with gluttony (gasp!!!), that many of my peers suffer. I know, though, that's it's more complicated than that. But, being blessed with the ability to just say no to food, I can honestly relate the positive benefits of the occasional fast. It's good to be genuinely hungry when one eats, and I find that a day long fast, usually on a weekend day, helps me get back to feeling lean and mean if I feel sluggish. When my body is processing food efficiently I know it because I'm poopin' right. If you're not pooping right you know your body isn't able to keep up with what you're putting into it.

Enough of that!

Chris

 

[lunamoth]

Your pipi and her cha cha?

(Yes, I know, quite juvinile of me to pick that out of this whole long thread!)

And Chris, great observations as usual!

 

[Thomas]

I tend to look at this issue from a different viewpoint.

Fasting and abstinence is not because food is bad, sex is bad, this is bad, that is bad ... fasting and abstinence is a practical method of focussing and increasing willpower ... it's a means of practicing detachment, of taking control of your life.

+++

The physical aspects as ImpQueen mentioned are actual, and secondary, but are purely 'natural' — there's often more to 'healthy body/healthy mind' than meets the eye.

Spiritual development is like any endeavour, one has to train — Just because I'm me, it doesn't mean I can do or be whatever/whoever I want. So to think we can carry on with our self-indulgences, and yet aspire to the dizzying heights, is like assuming that 10 pints, 20 **** and whatever else we fancy will not impair our abilityt to run the 100 metres in under 10 seconds.

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Hi Tao —

... There are fewer experiences more spiritual than coming together in sexual union with the one you love ...

Have you experience of all the degrees of spiritual union?

Thomas

 

[Bruce Michael]

As for fasting, severity only ever works short term. I think a gentle approach is better.

[FONT=&quot]I quoted recently-
[/FONT]

"what has happened is that the human being has become the image of the gods
in the very organs which are normally called the organs of his lower nature.
The image of the gods has been debased in human beings as they are on
earth.The highest principle in human beings, the spiritual principle coming
from the cosmos, has become their lower nature....Our lower nature which is
due to Lucifer's influence, was actually destined to be our higher nature.
This is the contradictory element in human nature. Rightly understood it
will solve countless riddles in the world and life."

[FONT=&quot]
-Steiner

-Br.Bruce

[/FONT]

 

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Tao —



Have you experience of all the degrees of spiritual union?

Thomas

I have no idea. I doubt it. But i do make a good cocktail.