Deut 13:18?

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goodyman

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Hi everyone- Can someone please explain how this biblical law used to work? Did the fathers brake their daughters virginity or did the husband? (Im sorry I made a mistake with the chapter. Its Deut 22:13-18)


Deut 22:13-18 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,

And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:


Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth [the tokens of] the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:


And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;


And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech [against her], saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these [are the tokens of] my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.


And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;.
 
What the fluck are you on? You sure that is the bible your reading? Not your familys diary?

Deut 13:18 REALLY says: For you should listen to the voice of Jehovah your God by keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, so as to do what is right in the eyes of Jehovah your God.

that has jack fluck to do with virginity.. And you KNOW the answer... As it is obvious... Unless your family is a bunch of incest freaks :)
 
17th Angel said:
What the fluck are you on? You sure that is the bible your reading? Not your familys diary?

Deut 13:18 REALLY says: For you should listen to the voice of Jehovah your God by keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, so as to do what is right in the eyes of Jehovah your God.

that has jack fluck to do with virginity.. And you KNOW the answer... As it is obvious... Unless your family is a bunch of incest freaks :)
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Hi Angel, My apologies, I made a mistake. Im hoping you will be able to explain Deut 22:13-18?
 
AHHHHHHH

I thought you was just trying to make things up as you went along lol....

But no, love is an act between Husband and wife, which I am sure is identical to the Islam faith... These verses are going on about being faithful to your husband/wife (whichever) If a husband suspects the wife isn't a virgin he is to ask the parents for evidence as they are their daughters keeper....
 
17th Angel said:
AHHHHHHH

I thought you was just trying to make things up as you went along lol....

But no, love is an act between Husband and wife, which I am sure is identical to the Islam faith... These verses are going on about being faithful to your husband/wife (whichever) If a husband suspects the wife isn't a virgin he is to ask the parents for evidence as they are their daughters keeper....
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Thanks Angel. Thats all very well. What is this: And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city???
 
Cloth is placed there because The man has said the woman isn't a virgin... And how would your prove it? By the break of the hymen... Which would cause bleeding onto the bed sheets correct? So laying out the bed sheets... is there blood? Isn't there blood?

Being a very serious acqusation they needed to find out who was lying. As it isn't a light punishment......

Goody Have a read of 2nd peter 3:16 brother...
 
17th Angel said:
Cloth is placed there because The man has said the woman isn't a virgin... And how would your prove it? By the break of the hymen... Which would cause bleeding onto the bed sheets correct? So laying out the bed sheets... is there blood? Isn't there blood?

Being a very serious acqusation they needed to find out who was lying. As it isn't a light punishment......

Goody Have a read of 2nd peter 3:16 brother...
Click to expand...

What role does the daddy play? The daddy produces the bed sheets, right?
 
Proof of Virginity.
On the wedding night a cloth or garment was used and then kept or given to the wife’s parents so that the marks of the blood of the girl’s virginity would constitute legal protection for her in the event she was later charged with lack of virginity or of having been a prostitute prior to her marriage.
 
goodyman said:
Hi everyone- Can someone please explain how this biblical law used to work? Did the fathers brake their daughters virginity or did the husband? (Im sorry I made a mistake with the chapter. Its Deut 22:13-18)


Deut 22:13-18 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,

And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:


Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth [the tokens of] the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:


And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;


And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech [against her], saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these [are the tokens of] my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.


And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;.
Click to expand...

The father and mother take the "hymen" remnants (the blood on the sheets of the marriage bed, proving the virginity of the daughter), before the city. In short, they call the husband a liar, and present proof of his lie...

It has nothing to do with the father bedding the daughter.

In New England, there was the habit of taking the sheets of a wedding bed and hanging them out the window, as proof of the chastity of the maiden come wife, and the fact that the woman now belonged to her husband, and they were of one flesh...
 
and what a filthy and abhorrent practise it is... in some parts of the world this still occurs- eastern block, and africa, amongst other places, and I know that because i watched a documentary last year on channel four about it... the sheets after the bride is deflowered are paraded to others as part of traditional wedding ceremony, to show others that the bride was a virgin, and so the marriage and the bride are not tainted by suspicion... as 17th has said...

not only this, though, in the documentary I watched, the family did not wait 'til the next day, to collect the sheets quietly- no, they took the girl into the bedroom, and the man was expected to do his thing whilst the family stood around outside listening at the door... then, when the girl who has just been deflowered, and let's not forget where there's blood there's pain, begins to cry, in they all ran, to take the sheets...

the tokens are a polite way of describing stains, and oftentimes the family keep possession of the sheets for a good while, just in case the husband later says that she was not a virgin, etc... however: the hymen can be broken in many innocent ways; horseriding, using tampons, vigourous gymnastics, sports, etc, and so it is not real proof of virginity, this blood/no blood upon the sheets...

psychologically, this kind of thing is disturbing, that we, on our computers, should be wondering about it, I think... for me, it's another link in the chain of the subjegation of women... if ur hymen is so important, it means u cannot run, skip, and play rough and tumble sports... it means u can't use tampons either, which means u have to use jam-rags, which means that u cannot possibly go swimming or do sports while on ur period, nor can u wear tight pants or short skirts... this means that instead of participating in life, u become a spectator, at certain times in ur life... as well as this, u smell, which means that u are embarrassed/ashamed to be a woman, at certain times in ur life, and on it goes... little by little, u become nothing more than a fanny, defined completely by ur quim, and it's seasons... a virgin with a fully functioning hymen- yes boys, the Lord is blessing u...

at the same time she's getting told that the man is the powerful and pure one and this means he's the one who makes the decisions and she learns that she is just a deceitful quim, like Eve, or Lillith, punished with this "issue" for some sin of the progenitor of those with quims... instead of sex being the natural by-product of lust, or love, sex is then a duty, and then, as a fanny, without a law degree or any real sway within society ur only other real purpose is to make babies and cook the dinner... and so on it goes...

legions of docile bints, feeling bad about themselves, all because of silly tales like this one... and hey, it's not just in christianity that this occurs, but hinduism- where girls in an ashram can't go into the kitchen and cook becuase they're dirty, as they're on their period, in Judaism, where women take ceremonial baths to cleanse themselves, officially, after their period, because women are dirty bints, and they should all be ashamed of themselves...

and as we're in the christianity thread...

is deuteronomy part of the NT?

no, it isnt... so why should Christians bother with this kind of thing?

my mind is boggling...

where is Jesus here? he's not there, is he?

nope! so... should christians bother themselves with trying to understand these unenlightened tales of misery and opression?

nope
 
Francis king said:
and what a filthy and abhorrent practise it is... in some parts of the world this still occurs- eastern block, and africa, amongst other places, and I know that because i watched a documentary last year on channel four about it... the sheets after the bride is deflowered are paraded to others as part of traditional wedding ceremony, to show others that the bride was a virgin, and so the marriage and the bride are not tainted by suspicion... as 17th has said...

not only this, though, in the documentary I watched, the family did not wait 'til the next day, to collect the sheets quietly- no, they took the girl into the bedroom, and the man was expected to do his thing whilst the family stood around outside listening at the door... then, when the girl who has just been deflowered, and let's not forget where there's blood there's pain, begins to cry, in they all ran, to take the sheets...

the tokens are a polite way of describing stains, and oftentimes the family keep possession of the sheets for a good while, just in case the husband later says that she was not a virgin, etc... however: the hymen can be broken in many innocent ways; horseriding, using tampons, vigourous gymnastics, sports, etc, and so it is not real proof of virginity, this blood/no blood upon the sheets...

psychologically, this kind of thing is disturbing, that we, on our computers, should be wondering about it, I think... for me, it's another link in the chain of the subjegation of women... if ur hymen is so important, it means u cannot run, skip, and play rough and tumble sports... it means u can't use tampons either, which means u have to use jam-rags, which means that u cannot possibly go swimming or do sports while on ur period, nor can u wear tight pants or short skirts... this means that instead of participating in life, u become a spectator, at certain times in ur life... as well as this, u smell, which means that u are embarrassed/ashamed to be a woman, at certain times in ur life, and on it goes... little by little, u become nothing more than a fanny, defined completely by ur quim, and it's seasons... a virgin with a fully functioning hymen- yes boys, the Lord is blessing u...

at the same time she's getting told that the man is the powerful and pure one and this means he's the one who makes the decisions and she learns that she is just a deceitful quim, like Eve, or Lillith, punished with this "issue" for some sin of the progenitor of those with quims... instead of sex being the natural by-product of lust, or love, sex is then a duty, and then, as a fanny, without a law degree or any real sway within society ur only other real purpose is to make babies and cook the dinner... and so on it goes...

legions of docile bints, feeling bad about themselves, all because of silly tales like this one... and hey, it's not just in christianity that this occurs, but hinduism- where girls in an ashram can't go into the kitchen and cook becuase they're dirty, as they're on their period, in Judaism, where women take ceremonial baths to cleanse themselves, officially, after their period, because women are dirty bints, and they should all be ashamed of themselves...

and as we're in the christianity thread...

is deuteronomy part of the NT?

no, it isnt... so why should Christians bother with this kind of thing?

my mind is boggling...

where is Jesus here? he's not there, is he?

nope! so... should christians bother themselves with trying to understand these unenlightened tales of misery and opression?

nope
Click to expand...

What is 'filthy' about a woman being proven to be a virgin on her wedding night? She usually is the one who puts the sheet out the window. It isn't a banner for the family, but rather a banner for the woman. She is stating "My husband consumated me, and now I am his wife...all others, look elsewhere."

You aren't reading the culture correctly...

oh... you forgot a minor detail...we're "Jeudao-Christians"...we got our start from the Pentatuch.
 
Francis king said:
and then jesus came to give us a new testament...

my husband comsumated me... wowzer... great claim to fame, that one...
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Gee, I'm sorry. Not all men are less than satisfactory. Most leave stars in the eyes of their better halves...
 
Quahom1 said:
What is 'filthy' about a woman being proven to be a virgin on her wedding night?
You aren't reading the culture correctly...
Click to expand...

It is gross lol.... Would you like your little daughters sweaty/bloody bed sheet shown to the whole freaking town? lol..... It is a primative act if you ask me... And most have had sex before marriage anyway now-a-days. Also there is this word... Trust... You ever heard of that word? Also something else you may find interesting virgin/hymen bleeding.... It don't always happen fact. So a REAL virgin that doesn't bleed gets freaking stoned to death? :rolleyes: Simpletons....

Quahom1 said:
oh... you forgot a minor detail...we're "Jeudao-Christians"...we got our start from the Pentatuch.
Click to expand...

Not all christians ;)
 
you see, this is precisely the sort of discussion that occurs when people argue about the contents of the "lecture" with only the "lecture notes" to hand. this verse is important for a number of reasons but the most important are around divorce. in jewish law, when a couple divorce, the wife is entitled to a financial settlement known as the "ketubah". there are tariffs for this set in the Torah and they vary according to the circumstances. one of the major determinants is that of the wife's status at the time of betrothal and marriage. a virgin, as in almost all societies, comes with a higher price tag. furthermore, the father, as in almost all societies up until recently, has a financial interest in this transaction.

now, this may be all very interesting, but it's not entirely straightforward, as a glance at the Oral Law will make clear. for example, what do we mean by "virgin"? what about, for example, the horse (or bike) riding example where the hymen has been ruptured prior to betrothal? this is known in halakhah as "she fell on a stick" and there is a large argument (which i happen to have just studied) in tractate ketubot of the talmud about the point at which the disclosure of this should take place and whether it should be believed or not - as, presumably, the woman could be lying because she wasn't a virgin. you will be interested to know that it is presumed that she is telling the truth.

what is more, the sages consider the "bedsheet gambit" unreliable, because any person with half a brain would be able to fake a decent token - they conclude this based on consulting with their mothers, wives and birth professionals. consequently there is a general presumption that someone getting married for the first time is a virgin, even nowadays, because it is also forbidden to embarrass someone in public. so in practice, this would never occur although it would be permitted in theory.

as for the father's interest, it is also extensively investigated - there is a big argument over whether this interest continues into the girl's adulthood - bear in mind that when it says "married", it usually means "betrothed", not "consummated" (the term in hebrew is in fact better translated as "unification") and that this betrothal might take place very early on in life, such as 5 years old. nowadays, incidentally, formal betrothal takes place a couple of minutes before actual marriage to avoid the possibility of a need to break the betrothal itself, which would be nearly as much trouble as an actual divorce. and nobody gets married that early, of course!

there is also a major question over the point at which the father relinquishes his responsibility. normally, of course, it would be at age twelve or whenever "two hairs appear", but if a minor is betrothed and then widowed either before or after subsequent marriage, she is also an adult, financially speaking.

the salient point here is not, in fact, about virginity, but actually about bearing false witness. in this case the husband has a financial interest in claiming that his wife wasn't a virgin, because her ketubah would be only 100 zuz, not 200. that's why the proof is important. the sheet or "tokens" are important only insofar as they are rarely if ever available, hence this verse is more important for the discussion it kicks off, given the general presumption of virginity in a bride.

Francis king said:
in Judaism, where women take ceremonial baths to cleanse themselves, officially, after their period, because women are dirty bints, and they should all be ashamed of themselves...
Click to expand...
ahem, francis, this is not correct. the concepts you refer to have nothing to do with cleanliness or hygiene but are in fact to do with the spiritual status of "tamei" and "tahor", usually mistranslated as "un/clean" or "im/pure". men are also required to immerse if their status needs switching, but the status changes before the immersion is permitted, the immersion marking the transition. i have also heard it described as similar to "positive" and "negative" (without the value judgement) poles in electricity - both are needed but when they are connected incorrectly the energy doesn't flow.

in fact, the immersion pool or "mikvah" is the antecedent of baptism and has much the same function (converts also have to immerse) - the symbolic and mystical aspects are to do with re-connecting women to the infinite waters of life after experiencing the sadness and withdrawal commonly associated with menstruation; i'm not a woman, obviously, but this is how it has been explained to me by women. you should also know that women in judaism are in control of whether they are sexually available or not and it is their withdrawal to a women-only environment that provides them with a space from which they can emerge refreshed and renewed, just as their body is designed to do monthly. for example, mrs bb considers it a way to preserve her space within our relationship and emphasise the non-physical aspects, such as, oh, i don't know, conversation and so on. we simply formalise this process in order that it be treated with the proper respect, not as a messy inconvenience.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
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