God is with form or without form?

Discussion in 'Modern Religions' started by dattaswami1, Aug 25, 2007.

  1. dattaswami1

    dattaswami1 New Member

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    God is with form or without form?


    Do you think that we have to travel from clarity to confusion or from confusion to clarity? Anything becomes complicated when there is confusion. Anything becomes easy when there is clarity. Clarity is the real knowledge and confusion is the real ignorance. We must travel from ignorance to knowledge and not vice-versa. When you say that God is formless, there is no complication. God is like all pervading space or cosmic energy. A 10th class student who has studied physics can very easily understand this. But when a particular human being is declared as God the real complication arises, because He is looking like any human being. How this particular human being is God and every human being is not God? You have to analyze the internal form of the human incarnation and differentiate Him from an ordinary human being. Lot of logical analysis is required here only. Moreover egoism and jealousy attack immediately any one and due to this no body accepts a particular human being as God. Actually God is unimaginable and you cannot say that He has form or formless. He is not the space, which is formless. But you imagine Him like space. You have caught the space only in your imagination and not the real God. Somebody says that a peculiar animal in the forest called as Gavaya looks like cow, you have imagined only the cow and not the Gavaya animal. Unless you perceive God directly how can you imagine Him? Your imagination itself is nervous energy. Thus you perceive the unimaginable God through space and nervous energy. Both the space and nervous energy are parts of the creation. If you analyze the human body it is also energy occupying certain space.

    Therefore, you perceive God through the medium of space and energy. A medium, which is a part of the creation, is essential to imagine the unimaginable God. Unimaginable is different from formless. Space is formless but not unimaginable. First you distinguish between these two. The Guru of your Sikh Religion is actually the human incarnation and worshipping Him is the real worship of God. The reason for your Guru not encouraging the human incarnation is that the fraud Gurus are claiming themselves as God. It is really difficult to recognize the real human incarnation in which, God dwells. Certainly there is a large probability of fraud persons who claim themselves as God and mislead you. But you should not run away from analyzing the genuine incarnation fearing for the fraud persons. Any system has loopholes. The system cannot be rejected due to the loopholes. One cannot avoid the train journey since there is a risk of accident. One cannot abolish the examination system because there is a probability of copying. One cannot abolish the administration offices of the Government, as there is probability of corruption.

    There is a risk of artificial diamonds to be confused as original diamonds. Due to this will you avoid purchasing the necklace of original diamonds? You will take the help of an expert in selecting the original diamond. The human incarnation is the most convenient form for the worship and service. When you say that God is omni-potent it means that God has all powers. If He cannot come in human form, He is not having that power. Then He cannot be omni-potent. When He has the power to take the human incarnation, He has come in human form. Who are you to object that? He comes in human form for those devotees who are fond of worshipping Him through real service. They like to talk with God and live with God. They like to serve the God and see the pleasure in His face. They get full satisfaction by that. Therefore, God is in human form for such devotees only. Those who do not like the human form can worship God through formless inert items like space, energy etc. or inert forms like statues. But such worship is not the direct worship and it is only a representative worship. Neither space is God nor God is in the space. Similar is the case of a statue. Both formless space and formful statue stand as representatives of God only. Of-course God is pleased with the representative worship also, but the direct experience of God and the possibility of pleasing Him to the maximum extent are possible in the human body only.

    A devotee asked a question about the possibility of talking with God directly. He should investigate the human incarnation at present and can talk directly. The procedure to identify the human incarnation based on the scriptures is extensively explained by Me in several answers to the questions that are placed in the web-site (www.universal-spirituality.org). One has to identify the present human incarnation using that procedure, in which the inseparable characteristics of God in the human incarnation are well explained. God is coming in human form in every human generation. If He had come only in a particular human generation God becomes partial to that generation only. God wants to talk with His devotees to please them by clearing all their doubts. This is the main purpose of the human incarnation of God. If you don’t believe the human incarnation you need not approach the human incarnation. But there is a devotee like Jyothi, who is very much anxious to talk with God. You can neither object her nor the God to take the human form. You carry on your representative worship. She is not objecting you. If you don’t want to purchase the original diamonds do not purchase. But you should not object a person who wants to purchase the original diamond. Thus God provided both the ways separately. You purchase the artificial diamonds and let somebody purchases the original diamond. Those who want to pray God without talking with God, let them have the representative worship having formless God or statues. Those who want to pray, talk and worship the living God, let them have the human incarnation. You should not object the desire of other devotee and also the God who is capable to fulfill the desire of that devotee.

    Suppose some parents requested the management of a school to provide a park for waiting. The management is capable of doing so and it is the earnest desire of some parents. Suppose, there are some parents who do not like the facility of the park. They should not object those parents who want to use the facility of the park. They should also not oppose the management in the construction of the park. It is the duty of the management to inform the availability of the park so that any parent who ever desires to use that facility can use it apart from those parents who requested for it. If this general information is not provided to all the parents, some may ask the management regarding their negligence in informing the parents. Similarly, God comes in human form based on the prayers of some top most devotees to give direct experience. Through the human body the experience is not only direct but also complete. Such experience is not possible in the formless worship or in the worship of the statues. Such worship of formless God and statues is only a representative worship. It is just like worshipping the statue of the king and not the direct worship of the king. When you break a coconut near the statue, you can offer it by waving the hand and then eat it yourself. But when we break the coconut before the actual king, the king is fond of the pieces of coconut and will eat the entire coconut. When you want to avoid such inconvenience, you need not worship the human incarnation. You break the coconut before the statue and eat it yourself. But there is a fellow who wants to really offer the coconut to the king. He is pleased only when the king eats that coconut. He feels happy by seeing the happiness in the face of the king, while eating that coconut. What right you have to object such person? What right you have to object the king to come directly to eat that coconut for the happiness of a real devotee?
     
  2. JosephM

    JosephM New Member

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    Interesting writing which seems to me to be of much wisdom yet I would question this one part taken from the writing. It seems to me that God is complete already and there is no partial pleasing of Him. It seems to me that perhaps God has no ego that he needs to be pleased by any individual action in or out of the human body. To Him that has everything there is no maximum or minimum.
    Just a view to consider,
    Love and Peace,
    JM
     
  3. Eclectic Mystic

    Eclectic Mystic Member

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    Yes.
     
  4. earl

    earl ?

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    Or you could just go with Seattlegal's avatar about cows-"mu." :Dearl
     
  5. Eclectic Mystic

    Eclectic Mystic Member

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    Likewise true.
     
  6. JosephM

    JosephM New Member

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    Greetings Dattasawami1,

    What need has an all-knowing God to test his creation or their attitude of sincerity which was known from the start? It seems to me there is no test as you see but rather a harmonious divine dance of creation. You yourself being a master should know that there are no 'should's' , 'should not's', nor requirements from God. Do you seek just another religion filled with mind made laws or is it just not sufficient for you to reside in the liberty you have been given? You yourself know that intelligence of mind, dogma, and rituals have no place in the reality of God. Why then do you entertain us with such frivolity?

    Sincerely,
    JM
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2007
  7. dattaswami1

    dattaswami1 New Member

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    JosephM;

    Lord is substratum of the whole creation and hence forms base. Without Him creation cannot sustain. Lord created the universe for entertainment. He has given free will to all the human beings to do whatever they like. But, the results will follow the deeds. So, He is indirectly controlling, that is to say that enjoyment for good deeds and misery for bad deeds. Misery is to bring realisation only and not to repeat the same bad deed. Otherwise, He is not responsible for one's deeds.


    Creation is in Lord but Lord is not the creation. But such a Lord can enter creation at the request of devotees who wants Him only and His service. He comes down to give four fortunes to His devotees (to talk, to touch, co-living and to serve).


    [Please read all my replies also]
     
  8. JosephM

    JosephM New Member

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    Dattaswami1,
    I have read your replies...
    It is as you say yet creation is NOT for entertainment of the Lord as if God needed such. Entertainment is created by and for the souls in accordance with the divine makeup of the universe whose power comes from the Lord. It is the nature of creation and its curiousity to seek out such until it comes to closure. Yet the Lord is only potentiality and not the temporal illness per se. In this, it is my view, you perhaps err in your understanding or in word only.

    Love and Peace,
    JM
     
  9. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    God is a spirit
     
  10. Dah-veeth

    Dah-veeth Abeja Maya

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    Omnipresent Spirit :)

    Here's a quote from Baha'i scriptures that I love:

    "There is none other God but Him, the All-Glorious, the Almighty, the All-Highest, the All-Wise, the All-Pervading, the All-Seeing, the All-Informed, the Sovereign Protector, the Source of eternal light!" -Baha'u'llah

     
  11. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    in the bible Jesus said ,
    God is a Spirit,
    ,
    Lit., "A Spirit [is] the God." Gr., Pneu´ma ho The´os.
    John 4:24.
     
  12. Dah-veeth

    Dah-veeth Abeja Maya

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    I agree.

    Here's a quote you reminded me of, I hope you don't mind.

    "To every discerning and illumined heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is and hath ever been veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. 'No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving.'" -Baha'u'llah

     
  13. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    yes no man can see God ,
     
  14. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    No it has no form. (If you think otherwise show me.) :D
     
  15. farhan

    farhan Active Member

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    God is a formless consciousness that isnt restricted by our perceptions of formlesness.
     
  16. Dean_Fox

    Dean_Fox New Member

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    God is a personification, a human perception of something.
     
  17. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    God is absolutely without form. (Deut. 4:15-18) According to Jesus himself God is Spirit, and that the only way to relate to Him is in a spiritual manner. (John 4:24) Form is found in matter; and God is immaterial. Incorporeal, so to speak. The result of thinking of God as having form is anthropomorphism, which borders on idolatry.
    Ben
     
  18. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    ::::::::::::::::::::::
    Thanks for lending the reference so as to investigate it personally.
    Let me 'personally' ask you all your 'personal' questions about the technical explainations about the topic "Is God with form or without form?" in the Bible:

    inre: "Is God with form or without form?":

    What absolute maxim is stated; & in what context; & for what purpose; & to whom, in Deut. 4:15-18?

    What absolute maxim is stated; & in what context; & for what purpose; & to whom, in John 4:24?
    ::::::::::::::::::::::

    So my subjective empherical (corporal/temporal) Intelligence decerns that the following is applicable:

    Ben Masada is absolutely with form. According to Jesus himself Ben Masada is Spirit, and that the only way to relate to Ben Masada is in a spiritual manner. Form is found in matter; and Ben Masada is immaterial. Incorporeal, so to speak. The result of thinking of Ben Masada as having form is anthropomorphism, which borders on idolatry of Ben Masada.

    <Semantics = poetry>

    <Absolute(s) = Laws>

    <Absolute = Eternal/objective; Temporal = Relative/subjective>

    <anthropomorphism = Man is the Height of Creation and none other surpasses Man. anthropomorphism is a man-made-concept ---like a patented invention borne of neccesity>
    ...........................
    Ben your sentiments are absolute; but we are relative.

    A "Ruler's subjective Presence" is temporal, but the Office & Duties of A Ruling Government are absolute ---the Ruler must intergrate the two to provide satisfaction to "All the people All the time" ---or his arse gets Momar Kaddafized by 1st world forces. No?
     
  19. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    God is a person.

    We are biological creatures in a cosmos floating on a spherical globe lost in space.
     
  20. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    God is a person.

    We are biological creatures in a cosmos floating on a spherical globe lost in space.

    Regarding, "Transmigrations of the Soul" it is extensively explored & written [here IMOW]:

    "What determines the future destiny of the re-birth of a soul?"

    The motivationg factor that selects a future birth from among all the possible available varigated species of living-sentient life-forms ---is predicated on the organic desire & pursuit** of for endless "Sense-Gratification".

    [**There are 4 catagorical common goals: eating acommodations//sleeping acommodations//mating acommodations//defending acommodations ---all species of life exercise their faculties to secure these instinctual self-perserving pursuits, as a lifetime pastime]

    "What determines stops future re-birth of a soul?"
    Returning Home back to Godhead or alternatively, a state of Nirvana-ship.
    Returning Home or merge into the light of the spiritual-sky.

    But just as asking your Mother, "Who is your real father"; so the maxim is that to know about the absolute Truth of the Matter ---one must approach directly the bonefide representative of that singular and incontravertable Subject Matter.

    For example: Krishna speaks directly to Arjuna and even the inimical Cousin Duryodhana ---Krishna bluntly reveals himslef as God etc etc etc ---and yet, still the world engages in all sorts of activities for purposes bornes of mundane mentality and pursuits that objectively provide one's subjective needs such as : eating acommodations//sleeping acommodations//mating acommodations//defending acommodations ---that's simply the common denouminator motivating factors that keep the masses happy with their daily bread ---yet alas, each year less & less interest rates into the bargin.
     

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