God came as Shankara to uplift the atheists who did not care for God

Discussion in 'Eastern Religions and Philosophies' started by dattaswami1, Aug 30, 2007.

  1. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Excellent comment, Ramaraksha, and welcome to the IO forums. :)
     
  2. brijesh

    brijesh New Member

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    Shankara was God. He did not come for God. If a god needs care then this god should be killed asap. Do not talk childish. You plz do not worry about God, Shankara and buddha, jesus and krishna and muhammada. You can not do anything for them. Not good nor bad.

    I think you are worried about perticular religion. So be very truth in tour statement and write exact what is your concern.

    www.royalmonk.in your personal tour guide in india
     
  3. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    'atheists' ---here IMHO IOW 'nihilist' during the height of popularity of Buddhism in India.
    IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
    Exhibit A --- The usual suspects:

    Page 15 from an Amar Chitra katha Comic from India printed in 1974 [a classic IYKWIM] entitled "Adi Shankara" ACK-060 (656).

    Bhaja Govinda!
     

    Attached Files:

  4. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    http://www.interfaith.org/forum/the-6-schools-of-hindu-15335.html#post266921


    “After studying the six philosophical theses, Vyasadeva completely summarized them all in the aphorisms of Vedanta philosophy.

    According to Vedanta philosophy, the Absolute Truth is a person. When the word ‘nirguna’ [‘without qualities’] is used, it is to be understood that the Lord has attributes that are totally spiritual.”

    COMMENTARY by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami:

    According to Lord Shri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Shripada Shankaracarya preached the Mayavada philosophy for a particular purpose. Such a philosophy was necessary to defeat the Buddhist philosophy of the nonexistence of the spirit soul, but it was never meant for perpetual acceptance. It was an emergency.

    Thus Lord Krishna was accepted by Shankaracarya as the Supreme Personality of Godhead in his commentation on Bhagavad-gita. Since he was a great devotee of Lord Krishna, he did not dare write any commentary on Shrimad-Bhagavatam because that would have been a direct offense at the lotus feet of the Lord.

    But later speculators, in the name of Mayavada philosophy, unnecessarily make their commentary on the catuù-shloki Bhagavatam without any bona fide intent.

    The monistic dry speculators have no business in the Shrimad-Bhagavatam because this particular Vedic literature is forbidden for them by the great author himself. Shrila Vyasadeva has definitely forbidden persons engaged in religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and, finally, salvation, from trying to understand Shrimad-Bhagavatam, which is not meant for them (Bhag. 1.1.2).

    Shripada Shridhara Svami, the great commentator on Shrimad-Bhagavatam, has definitely forbidden the salvationists or monists to deal in Shrimad-Bhagavatam. It is not for them. Yet such unauthorized persons perversely try to understand Shrimad-Bhagavatam, and thus they commit offenses at the feet of the Lord, which even Shripada Shankaracarya dared not do.

    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::




    Thank you A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami for
    presenting the "Bhagavad-gita AS IT IS"
    you
    are kindly preaching the message of
    Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and
    delivering the Western countries,
    which are filled with impersonalism and voidism,

    Bhaktajan




     
  5. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Invading the Sacred​

    Critiques of Western Scholarship on religions in India.
    Invading the Sacred - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Documenting protests and disputed studies​


    The book documents essays, critiques and surveys of Western Scholarship on religions and traditions in India. Often, the current knowledge in America of Hinduism is shocking to Indians. The book also contains critiques of European ideas as applied to Indian culture. The last sections chronicles how key academic establishments in USA have responded.[6] The book documents protests that are not only of cognitive or factual basis but also often about interpretations. A non-cognitive approach that is non-falsifiable makes study of Hinduism more of an art correspondingly which leads to new challenge of differences of opinions between members and scholars. Critics of academics claim bias or gross errors in some aspects.[5] The book also disputes the studies by Wendy Doniger, Jeffery Kripal and Paul Courtright. It also critiques the efficacy of the excessive use of Freudian psychoanalysis in hermeneutics which some of these studies rely on.[1]
     
  6. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    :) :) :) Datta, we meet again. One of those who propelled me to atheism was Sankara with his message of 'oneness' (non-duality) - 'advaita'. So, no God (I am no God).
     
  7. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    If it a person, then is it a male or a female or both or somewhere in-between? Who are its parents? Married or unmarried, divorced, widowed? Any children?

    Don't twist the term 'nirguna' and stick to the classical 'without qualities'. Absolute Truth is unknowable, not fully known at least at the present time. What we have come to know is that 'physical energy' constitutes the universe and all things contained in it, and that no other such (constituting) entity exists. That is what our sages said - 'Eko sad, dwiteeyo nasti' (what exists is one, there is no other), or 'sarve khalu idam Brahma' (all things existing here are Brahman). Perhaps 'physical energy' is Brahman. On what basis, you turn it into a person? Is sand a person? Is water a person? Is air a person?
     
  8. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Can you not read comic strips?

    Shankara said:
    Bhajam Govinda
    Bhajam Govinda
    Bhajam Govinda

    Worship Govinda (aka Krishna as a boy Cow Header)
    Worship Govinda (aka Krishna as a boy Cow Header)
    Worship Govinda (aka Krishna as a boy Cow Header)

    Stated three times for the 'hard of reading'.

    PS: Your posts are almost ALWAYS depressing.
     
  9. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    I wish you well on your path to being Square, or Triangular, or bent, or twisting, or torquing, or ballooning, or fluttering, or flat, or curved, or stuck between a rock and a hard place.

    I will remember what I knew of your brief human form,
    Bhaktajan
     
  10. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    We all (you too) remember things till we are living our short lives. After death there is no 'I', 'you', or 'we'. We are (really) that (Tat twam asi - Brahman).
    That is not 'absolute reality' (Paramarthika satya). :)
     
  11. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    "The science of dead souls"

    After Death we automatically become "One with Brahman"?

    Isn't that the laziest spiritual 'Patha' ('Path' is sanskrit) conceivable?

    Is the "Lazy Spiritualist's Path" free of karma & samsara?

    Presto the birth of the absent minded Yogi?

    The new Yogi does no Yogi. Now free-for-all!

    After any "point in space" is passed-by ---it remains there to be re-visited when or wherever the whim or severe endeavor brings you.

    No matter what happens to people and their lives ---
    The Salvation Army will catalogue and
    box away and
    stack-up in the basement
    and later re-sell
    all your belongings.
    Amen for that.

    IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
    Here is something I invite you to latch on to:

    http://www.interfaith.org/forum/isha-upanishad-recited-by-george-15923.html

    I would love to read your analysis of my proposed "Reading" of the Isha-Upanishad.

    What do you think? Can you escape my invitation?
     
  12. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Even while we are alive, we are brahman (Tat twam asi). Saw something of the link. I may have differences with with the views expressed in this upanishad and others. We hindus are very individualistic and it is not considered heresy in hinduism. However, thanks for the invite.
     
  13. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    All the more intellectually stimulating.
    What more could I ask for.

    I can not imagine debating nor contending with any comment you make on this Thread that I linked.

    Any opinion or relevant observation would be great to read and compare to.

    My only desire is that no specious posts be made that digress from the topic of "Alternative" renderings (translations).

     
  14. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    It takes me much time, but learn a lot from you two.
     
  15. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    But that is a fact, Bhaktajan. I have Prabhupada's Gita on my bookmarks. It is excellently presented and I love it. It does add a few things which the original does not contain. I know a little Sanskrit, so I can know. But I do not mind it knowing the tradition that Prabhupada followed. The same thing, in a more grotesque manner was done by Swami Dayananda Saraswati of the Arya Samaj in his rendering of the meaning in Vedas. His translation is a caricature of what Vedas mean. That is why I always prefer Ralph Griffith's translation of RigVeda at 'Sacred-texts' even if it may not be perfect. Scholarship is about being honest.
     
  16. AdvaitaZen

    AdvaitaZen New Member

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    God is not a useful concept, indeed, it is probably the principle delusion in religion. What Shankara and many others teach is a way to encounter the divine within each one of us, "thou art that". Now, the concept is no more useful because you know what God is - that utter oneness of existence and its common source which is non-perceptual.

    When we make God something other, we have entered maya. Whatsoever arises in consciousness is exactly maya, every object is a delusion caused through clinging to particular subjective identifications. We divide reality, and then we wonder why we feel distant from it.

    Eventually, each one will realize the error in this, must realize. Until such a point is reached, God is the buzzword for this very oneness which is each ones true nature, constantly reminding us to limit the ego because there is something which ego has appeared in, that is far greater than it.

    Make no mistake, though, God is another delusional concept for the mind, eventually it too must be dropped. This is not an atheist statement, it is simply not theistic, no concept can help us overcome the delusional mind - they can only assist in combating delusion, a thorn removing a thorn, only throwing away both is helpful.
     
  17. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    I'd like to counter this
    God is not a useful concept,
    Not useful for Hedonists

    indeed, it is probably the principle delusion in religion.
    It is the sole priciple

    What Shankara and many others teach is a way to encounter the divine within each one of us,
    Okay

    "thou art that".
    Shankara did NOT coin this. We all art That. All there is --is That. In the beginning all was in darkness

    Now,
    Sanskrit scholars must always cite chap & verse, lest "The Life Of Brain" & "Svengali" & "Cool-Aide" victim-hood occurs

    the concept is no more useful because you know what God is
    You have stated that You are God ---wont you proclaim it Proudly

    - that utter oneness of existence and its common source which is non-perceptual.
    EXACTLY! WE CANNOT perceive it except via Instruction from the source documents. Why does it take the Vedas and sutras so many pages to explain a singular Poetic rule-of-thumb? It doesn't ---there are things that only be known by "Descending down to us from up on high"

    When we make God something other,
    We see how infinitely tiny and insignificantly small and inconsequential to the Cosmos We individual souls are. This could make the inner "Earnest Hemingway or F.Scott Fitzgerald" in any body greatly depressed.

    we have entered maya.
    It's all one. We are in Maya. Being outside Maya is not equal to being born and living and existing in the Cosmic Prakriti in the cycle of samsara. We escape Maya when we are not existing in Maya. Seems there is another mountain to climb.

    Whatsoever arises in consciousness is exactly maya,
    See my comment above.

    every object is a delusion caused through clinging to particular subjective identifications.
    Every object is REAL but TEMPORARY ---this reconciles this age-old maxim. Of Course "We are not the Material [maya-Prakriti] Body, We are Spirit [divyam-Prakriti]"

    We divide reality, and then we wonder why we feel distant from it.
    We are tiny spark of God illumination ---spending time "enjoying" in a world where Time is manufactured

    Eventually, each one will realize the error in this, must realize. Until such a point is reached,
    We will spend time "enjoying" in a world where Time is manufactured

    God is the buzzword for this very oneness which is each ones true nature,
    Did we come from apes? Apes invented this idea of God? Did you invent who your real father is, or did you receive that Knowledge from the mother source?

    constantly reminding us to limit the ego because there is something which ego has appeared in, that is far greater than it.
    ????????????? ---Up-holding the Greater Good causes hardship for the Minor Good?

    Make no mistake, though, God is another delusional concept for the mind,
    What if that is your mistaken Propaganda? Even if you are God ---you still answer to all the calls of nature. Mother nature trumps every endeavor and plan. You haven't mentioned "Beating the System". So far its about feeling content in the world of Maya.

    eventually it too must be dropped.
    This is thought this way because we take for granted to karmic path that brought us to where one is as they read this ---we are living short lives and we should engage in finding out the reason for living. The reason for living is Interpersonal Skill and etiquette ---our individual petty preferences lead us to further petty rewards--- but also, having great karma now is NO insurance for future good karma, unless their is Eternal vigilance.


    This is not an atheist statement, it is simply not theistic,
    This is an atheist's statement, BECAUSE it is simply not theistic. But can I assume you would not recognise Theistic statements?

    no concept can help us overcome the delusional mind
    All Concepts are Maya. We must receive scripture for what it is worth ---NOT denigrate it.

    - they can only assist in combating delusion, a thorn removing a thorn, only throwing away both is helpful.
    ???? It takes a learned Doctor.
     
  18. AdvaitaZen

    AdvaitaZen New Member

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    Not useful for Hedonists
    Hedonism is a mocking of those who enjoy life. If your intent is not to enjoy this place, why stay? There is certainly far more to life than material pursuit, but there is also far more than spiritual pursuit. Religion means to rebind, it is to go beyond the opposites, if you divide life, you miss the whole point.

    It is the sole priciple
    It depends what you mean by God as principle. If you mean nonduality, oneness, union, certainly it is the point of all religion, if you mean some man in the sky who talks to some people and tells us how to live our lives, well I cannot agree.

    Rather than God, it would be better if love became the focus of religion.

    Shankara did NOT coin this. We all art That. All there is --is That. In the beginning all was in darkness
    I have not said it is original to Shankara, I am not concerned with Shankara. It is, as you say, the very nature of existence, if you want to call this God it is perfectly good but where does this get us?

    I am not for any devotional tradition simply because they cause us to identify with the ego and worship our true nature. For me, religion is about realizing our true nature, and BEING that. True Bhakti arises through encountering oneness, and the sheer ecstatic love which is felt for the entire existence. Without Jnana, Bhakti is poisonous, as countless wars prove.

    Sanskrit scholars must always cite chap & verse, lest "The Life Of Brain" & "Svengali" & "Cool-Aide" victim-hood occurs
    Scholars do not know divine bliss, they are trying to interpret texts based on their mind. The first thing to understand is no scripture is truth, they can only be attempts at pointing towards truth. Truth is an experience, text cannot be that experience.

    You have stated that You are God ---wont you proclaim it Proudly
    Ahem Brahmasmi.

    EXACTLY! WE CANNOT perceive it except via Instruction from the source documents. Why does it take the Vedas and sutras so many pages to explain a singular Poetic rule-of-thumb? It doesn't ---there are things that only be known by "Descending down to us from up on high"
    It is not perceivable because to perceive of anything there has to be division - a perceiver and perceived must be there. Dhyana is the perception that all is one, but Samadhi is as deep sleep, there is nothing in consciousness.

    The reason so much is written on this is because it is very difficult to explain clearly something so simple. How have these texts come about though? They are people like you and me trying to explain how to encounter something they have experienced. It is nothing of divine origin, it is man trying to explain the divine, trying to convey and guide towards truth.

    Once truth is known, all scriptures will be seen as weak, dead and meaningless text - although certainly you will be grateful they have tried, and you will understand the difficulty they have had trying to express this.

    We see how infinitely tiny and insignificantly small and inconsequential to the Cosmos We individual souls are. This could make the inner "Earnest Hemingway or F.Scott Fitzgerald" in any body greatly depressed.
    Atman and Brahman are one, soul is a delusion, it is the nature of our separation from the Whole, it is identification with the waves rather than the ocean. When we see we are the ocean, we realize the entire cosmos is who we naturally are, manifesting here and now to experience this miracle that we are.

    Do you think God is any less bewildered that he is? Man can easily point at this principle and be grateful that He has created us, it is convenient because it causes us to think we have explained something, but nothing at all is explained. For me, true wisdom comes when you realize even God must be profoundly mystified that He exists, and then we can understand we are simply That trying to understand and confirm its own being.

    It's all one. We are in Maya. Being outside Maya is not equal to being born and living and existing in the Cosmic Prakriti in the cycle of samsara. We escape Maya when we are not existing in Maya. Seems there is another mountain to climb.
    Maya is simply identifying with the story, when we cease to identify with the story we are liberated. Mind is the basic cause of maya, seeing we are not the mind, that we are watching what arises in the mind, there is nirvana - no-thing-ness. We are the formless, timeless essence of Being, it is only necessary to detach from the mind stream and body identifications. Mind can be used to go beyond mind, but identifying the source of mind is far more fruitful.

    Every object is REAL but TEMPORARY ---this reconciles this age-old maxim. Of Course "We are not the Material [maya-Prakriti] Body, We are Spirit [divyam-Prakriti]"
    We are not anything we can experience, no object of consciousness is consciousness itself, it is only something arising in the play of consciousness. Material and spiritual, both, are delusion, they are a division, and there is no division possible in Reality.

    We are tiny spark of God illumination ---spending time "enjoying" in a world where Time is manufactured
    Time is a construct of the mind to make sense of maya, to cause an experience that is rational. We are not tiny sparks, we are modified consciousness, believing itself to be something appearing in consciousness rather than consciousness itself. God, too, is something appearing in consciousness, an object to direct constant love towards, to believe ourselves lovers. When object - God or Brahman, since it is said the world is Brahman - and subject - Self or soul, that which we believe ourselves to be - are no more divided, we encounter our divinity. Yet, they are not actually divided even now, it is only a mental delusion that makes it seem so.

    Did we come from apes? Apes invented this idea of God? Did you invent who your real father is, or did you receive that Knowledge from the mother source?
    I am not concerned with where we came from, what I am concerned with is what is here now. Since time is a delusion of mind, past and future are also delusions of mind, the only reality is this moment... it is our goal to understand what is actually here.

    Past and future arise as memories or dreams NOW, they have no existential reality outside the mind. They are stories about how we got here and where we are going, they have to be dropped, we have to simply be here without bringing in anything, this is the nature of enlightened awareness, consciousness without the story.

    ????????????? ---Up-holding the Greater Good causes hardship for the Minor Good?
    Who upholds the greater good? Who decides what is greater and minor good? These are all merely ideas in the mind, they are ego based, they uphold atman, which is the nature of perceived separation.

    Evil exists so that we do not become too enthralled by maya, without it there is no reason to question what we are doing here, who we are. It can be said that evil is the greatest good because without it we would never look to the divine. You will not like this, yet it upholds the cosmic balance, fighting for good is the cause of most evil through history - I find this ironic.

    What if that is your mistaken Propaganda? Even if you are God ---you still answer to all the calls of nature. Mother nature trumps every endeavor and plan. You haven't mentioned "Beating the System". So far its about feeling content in the world of Maya.
    Inaccurate, this body has its needs, if we wish to continue experiencing this place, we must care for it. It is as a car, we get in the car so that we can get somewhere conveniently, it is absurd to then become fearful of leaving the car once it has served its purpose - once we arrive at the destination. Understanding we are not the car, it does not mean we shouldn't care for it, it only means we are no more attached to it.

    All scripture is about finding unceasing happiness, happiness is contentment. How can you speak so negatively towards contentment yet claim to be on the path towards the divine? Satchitanand - Truth, Consciousness, Bliss - it IS contentment with what is. Discontent comes from trying to escape Dharma, trying to deny or escape what is the case now.

    This is thought this way because we take for granted to karmic path that brought us to where one is as they read this ---we are living short lives and we should engage in finding out the reason for living. The reason for living is Interpersonal Skill and etiquette ---our individual petty preferences lead us to further petty rewards--- but also, having great karma now is NO insurance for future good karma, unless their is Eternal vigilance.
    Karma means action, Karma Yoga is action taken without identification, without a sense of doership. Without the sense of doership, we are free from all karma accumulation.

    The reason for living is love, and our true nature is love. For me, love is not the attached kind - this for me is variously lust, infatuation, or dependency - for me, true love stems from non-dual wisdom. When we believe ourselves separate, we protect that separateness, and this is the cause of all strife and antagonism. This merely calls us to look directly at this notion of separateness - what I call ego, although not perhaps what psychology calls it - and ask what exactly we are protecting here...

    What we are constantly protecting is self-love, but the Self is everything that is, not just the form we identify with. This basic misunderstanding is the root of all problems in the world, love for the Whole - the true Self - is the medicine for this ignorance, religion is an attempt to show us our true nature as the Whole. When this understanding enters us, we live as love.

    This is an atheist's statement, BECAUSE it is simply not theistic. But can I assume you would not recognise Theistic statements?
    For me, God is not the point, our own nature is the point - although these are not two things. When we overcome mind, this division of atheist and theist is simply not considered, similarly agnostic and gnostic doesn't matter. Divisions as such are created by the mind, they ARE maya. Whatsoever ideas the mind holds as true, it is all irrelevant, none of it is true because Truth is the witness of the mind.

    This isn't to say that ideas don't say truth accurately, it is only to say that the statement of the idea, the words cannot be it - they too merely arise in it.

    All Concepts are Maya. We must receive scripture for what it is worth ---NOT denigrate it.
    This is my point, God is only an idea, a concept.

    Once we have the experience, what use is the concept?
     
  19. AdvaitaZen

    AdvaitaZen New Member

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    Words are always about, they are never it.
     
  20. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Ahem Brahmasmi.
    Aham Brahmasmi = I am Spirit Soul. You are not the body (material energy)---you are conscious spirit soul. You are not God.

    very difficult to explain clearly something so simple.
    Atman and Brahman are one, soul is a delusion
    What is difficult to explain ---ALL IS ONE--- Childs' play IMO. The individual Soul is made of Brahman (spirit)

    We are not anything we can experience, no object of consciousness is consciousness itself, it is only something arising in the play of consciousness. Material and spiritual, both, are delusion, they are a division, and there is no division possible in Reality.
    All negation followed by more negation as if something progressive is being stated.

    Time is a construct of the mind to make sense of maya
    False based upon the real & actual Existence of TIME ---as we know it . . .

    that which we believe ourselves to be
    This is where ego-based desperation originates.

    I am concerned with is what is here now.
    Okay but why the self-aggrandising?

    Since time is a delusion of mind
    Your mind appears and disappears ---Time is the distroyer of ALL ---that's quite a Job-Title for something that doesn't exist. What about pain & suffering? Illusion?

    there is no reason to question what we are doing here
    That does not clairify anything

    It is as a car, we get in the car ... once it has served its purpose...does not mean we shouldn't care for it, it only means we are no more attached to it.
    Because Maya is Real & Temporary ---Insurance and maintenance & Taxes are the owners responsibility--- why consider additional Un-Conscious inert objects to be part of your being?

    Karma means action, Karma Yoga is action taken without identification,
    Karma yoga means action done without expecting reward knowing who is the recipient of Sacrifice.

    The reason for living is love,
    Your love would be false and Temporary. Love is only real in the company of real Persons ---lest it be labeled 'animal instinct'.

    For me, God is not the point, our own nature is the point
    The nature in question is PERSONA. God is the first Person (adi-purusha)

    All Concepts are Maya. We must receive scripture for what it is worth ---NOT denigrate it.
    This is my point, God is only an idea, a concept.
    Once we have the experience, what use is the concept?

    So all your concepts are false? Thank you for your candor.
    One cannot presume to understand the purport of ancient Sanskrit texts ---unless the purports of ancient Sanskrit texts are explained to them


    Outer Space has room for everybody's dreams and fancies.
    God is a very specific unique PERSON without peers ---this is the definition of Godhead. Evidently, you don't yet know the definition of God. What is the definition of God?
     

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