God came as Shankara to uplift the atheists who did not care for God

Discussion in 'Eastern Religions and Philosophies' started by dattaswami1, Aug 30, 2007.

  1. AdvaitaZen

    AdvaitaZen New Member

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    Are we the wave or the ocean?

    In human form, human needs must be fulfilled... does this make us just the form? We are consciousness itself, modified by our beliefs, identified with them through the mind. We have never been the body or the mind, believing otherwise is maya - a dream, delusion.

    We interpret our experience through these modifications, we suffer because we protect our beliefs, want to advance that which we identify as. We are that which all arises in, the very ocean itself, but the wave must die.

    Only when we allow ourselves to let go of all we think we are can we discover what we really are.
     
  2. AdvaitaZen

    AdvaitaZen New Member

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    What use can metaphysical knowledge have? I am interested in the experience itself, not gaining knowledge about others experience. Why do you value so much the words of another, do you fear the encounter itself?

    Yes, this is the main complaint the traditionalists have with what is being called Neo-Advaita. Advaita and Zen are merging today, and some of the main components of Zen being brought in is that enlightenment is always sudden, does not require scripture, and is not something that can be worked towards.

    Do not misunderstand, you must understand much before anything can happen, else what will you be looking for? Now though, it is more about directly encountering, rather than studying for a long time and gradually awakening.

    It is far better to awaken and then understand what has happened, too much knowledge makes it impossible to actually encounter truth - you think you know too much, you become too closed.

    Awakening is always unique and individual, there cannot be stepping stones that are valid for all people. No true Guru will try to apply general rules to every disciple, they will speak only for that individual, nurturing their personal growth. Relying on scripture and the like is a sure sign they are not truly a Guru, for it shows their own lack of real insight, they show themselves to be merely learned.

    For whom does karma apply?

    The mind is the sole "entity" in which desires arise, and it is desire which moves the mind. You are correct, Buddha teaches anatta and Advaitins merely say Atman and Brahman are the same. Buddha speaks much about departing the wheel of life and death, it is simply to detach from the mind stream, it is to see for whom the mind arises.

    Remaining only as the witness, nothing of this world touches you, you are no more of this place. How then can Karma apply? The karmic vehicle simply dies and we live on as God by any name, love.

    Zen is a attempt by the Japanese to say the Chinese Ch'an, which in turn is the Chinese attempt to say Dhyana - it means absorption. This is the very method of realizing the oneness of all things, constantly the opposites are discussed, the mind lives on the divisions, dropping all the opposites results in direct insight.

    This does not need to be studied, it only needs to be utilized and encountered directly. Studying how all is one does not give you the experience of oneness, and it is the experience that all true Guru's teach.

    For Advaita and Zen, Bhakti stems directly from the understanding of oneness, there is a deep compassion and love felt for all living things because they are not other than you. There is also a deep love for all of the gods, and all who have taught this truth, for they have all played their part in this moment happening.

    You know perfectly well though that Bhakti is not something about service, it is the love for existence or god, usually expressed through devotion. Service is of Karma Yoga, which is as you describe.

    The soul is the nature of separateness, it is the aspect which returns again and again to this place. Enlightenment is the merging of the soul back to spirit, it is the re-merging back into Brahman, its source.

    I do not know how useful it is to study something which is the basic nature of our ignorance, except to understand how to overcome this. If you wish to discuss this matter further, I would be more than willing, but something tells me you are not interested in this, I think you desire reincarnation.

    I am not sure how this corrects anything I have said.

    I would insist it is only relatively real, but you are speaking on that level so I have no argument.
     
  3. AdvaitaZen

    AdvaitaZen New Member

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    Of course, the main argument many have about the modern movements is that it seems all too easy. They insist that because others who paved the way had to work so strenuously, we all must.

    I would counter this by asking who is it that believes it must be difficult?

    You are already that which you seek, it is only a matter of knowing this. How long will it take you to let go of all which is a barrier to this? For as long as this takes, that is how much longer you will remain in ignorance. It is only your conception of you, identification is the only problem, you are only the awareness in which all arises.

    Just stay as that and trust.
     
  4. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    I would insist YOUR EXISTENCE relatively real,
    for you are speaking on that level so I am familiar with fleeting comets lost in space.

    AT NO TIME DOES ANY SPECK OF CREATION LOSE ITS OWN "DHARMA".

    Every prop used to build a set has a history and will continue to do so.

    I am too well aware of your Short lived in-consequential purposeless reason for living...if you have skills...you can a secure job in China's factories.

    Sanskrit protocol requires citation of Chapter and verse ---unless we preaching at jungle tribes un-able to back check the sources.

    Without nit-pickingly quoting of Chapter and verse one may appear as a Svengali wannabe.

    Excuse my presumptuous, Just saying for the record.
     
  5. AdvaitaZen

    AdvaitaZen New Member

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    Certainly, that which is spoken can only be relative - even if truth is said directly and exactly, it depends on your perception as to its meaning. I can only speak to you, thus everything I say is absolutely relative.

    Again, perfectly true, for Dharma means "Nature", we cannot escape it. Maya is our attempt to escape it though, enlightenment is returning to our inescapable truth. It is not something new, it is simply a remembering of our original perspective, we become the observer of the story rather than a character in the story. Just as we enjoy movies though, life is no less enjoyable, in fact it can be enjoyed more because there is less at stake - we simply play our roles, knowing we are not the role we are playing... leela.

    The history of the prop is not useful to the current scene, it only takes us away from what is here now.

    Pretending there is purpose to life does not make it so. Humans have created many reasons for our existence, it cannot be so simple as we are alive to live. No matter what we add to this though, it is the inescapable truth, and the greatest liberator when we come to terms with it.

    There is nothing to become, no tasks we have to complete, nothing is necessary, it is all an attempt to avoid the basic emptiness within - the void, Brahman, Sunyata. Without any expectations or requirements, only then are we free, only then can life be truly appreciated.

    In its pointlessness is its beauty, for nothing needed to be, yet it is.

    Again your insistence on textual sources when the living source is available.

    Then so be it, it is your right to judge, yet I will make a single point:

    On whose authority do we take the vedas as truth? You will say some sage or avatar, maybe God, you will say many things.

    In truth, it is you who have decided to accept the Vedas, thus whoever you claim as the authority, it is actually only ever you who is your authority. I merely admit this and speak for myself, conveying the same truths in my own way. Scripture has already been said, what use is quoting it? The person can simply look it up for themselves if they wish.

    I do find it somewhat hypocritical, but it is fine.
     
  6. AdvaitaZen

    AdvaitaZen New Member

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    Life living itself, just to prove it is alive
    Expressing in a multitude of ways
    What more do we need?
    Nothing more can be added
    Just this moment, perfect as it is
    Imagination is the cause of imperfection
    Comparing this to that
    We never stop to see the beauty of now
    Too busy with then and there
    Stop
     
  7. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Buddha's Kalama Sutta

    Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing,
    nor upon tradition,
    nor upon rumor,
    nor upon what is in a scripture,
    nor upon surmise,
    nor upon an axiom,
    nor upon specious reasoning,
    nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over,
    nor upon another's seeming ability,
    nor upon the consideration, "The monk is our teacher."

    Kalamas, when you yourselves know: "These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness," enter on and abide in them.'
     
  8. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    This is what perdestrian ‘doubting-Thomas’ Hindus scholars should keep in mind:

    Some scholars state the Puranas are Mythology ---thus, thier opinions lead to super twisted logic when, even “Metaphorical Terms”:

    Read the metaphorical-mythological “Promise” made by Krishna in the following Gita Verses ---such a mind set would then be yield the following reading:

    A metaphorical- mythological Being (Krishna) says:

    “Men of small intelligence worship the metaphorical-mythological demigods,
    and their fruits are limited and temporary. ---{{EDITOR NOTE: ‘and probably, metaphorical & mythological too’???}}.

    “whoever worships metaphorical-mythological demigods” will attain them … but My devotees ultimately reach My metaphorical-mythological supreme planet.”

    “After attaining the way of the spiritual and metaphorical-mythological godly life
    a man will not be bewildered.
    If one is thus situated even at the hour of death,
    one can enter into the metaphorical-mythological kingdom of God.

    That’s alot of metaphorical-mythological finger pointing going on and on.
    That’s alot of metaphorical-mythological phobia going on.

    IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
    Here are un-abridged verses as Krishna spoke to Arjuna, the Royal Prince, the Ideal Ksatriya circa 3,000 BC:

    Bg 2.71-72:
    A person who has given up all desires for sense gratification,
    who lives free from desires,
    who has given up all sense of proprietorship
    and is devoid of false ego
    —he alone can attain real peace.

    That is the way of the spiritual and godly life,
    after attaining which a man is not bewildered.
    If one is thus situated even at the hour of death,
    one can enter into the kingdom of God.

    Bg 7.23:
    Men of small intelligence worship the demigods,
    and their fruits are limited and temporary.
    Those who worship the demigods
    go to the planets of the demigods,
    but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.
    IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

    Death is the Ultimate Exam with no way back and without rebuttal.
    The testimony to the attainment of MOKSHA is verified upon the test of the act of Dying.

    Wishfull thinking will not suffice to be assured that “Loss of Consciousness” will occur.

    Death must be auspiciously mindful and with singleminded unction.

    Yamaraj presides over gross criminals only [*] ---others are sorted out via some sort of “Kosmik-auto-re-assignment-logarithm” into a future birth, per karma’s pecking-order; or, per varying degrees of spiritual advancement.

    [*does any one know why this is? That the Yamadhutas bring only the most sinfull to review their ‘Book of life’ ---maybe I am wrong--- I must recheck!]

    This is what perdestrian Buddhists scholars should keep in mind:
    Buddhas prime Propaganda = AHIMSA ---this specifically required renouncing the Veda and their Scriptural “GODS”.

    Because the ANIMAL SACRIFICES were being done caused nothing except BAD KARMA.

    That Pursuant to the Path to Moksha ---we want to avoid disease, old age, harm & death repeatedly in samsara--- we seek to end the illusion become un-affected by karma

    This was the Dual Message of Buddha.
    A] AHIMSA starting with STOPPING ANIMAL SACRIFICE as a mode of religious rite & religious right.
    B] Thus, the topic of KARMA cause BONDAGE in SAMSARA.

    All Buddhists MUST STOP accumulating BAD KARMA. Simply put, this starts with AHIMSA.

    Dharma begins with the proper action of Ahimsa.

    [PS: Ahimsa discussed here is a separate topic from Civic policing policy.]
     
  9. AdvaitaZen

    AdvaitaZen New Member

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    The only reason one clings to knowledge is because one cannot trust.
     
  10. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    What should we trust?
     
  11. AdvaitaZen

    AdvaitaZen New Member

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    Why do you need an object of trust?
     
  12. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    You mean believing what David Koresh or any other looney says?
     

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