How far can you take the arguement of free will? Did we have to AGREE to be born?

fourgrtkidos

Active Member
Messages
30
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
near Nirvana
This discussions would assume that free will is an accepted theory. Please feel free to defend your position if you do not believe in free will- I would love to learn about those positions, also.

If free will is a truth. Then, wouldn't we have to agree to be born?? Would a G!d create us and put us on this planet without our consent- given what many people go through in their lives. here....

I am wondering. In light of the suffering and violence that occurs on this planet and that you may or may not be born into a geographic region where "The truth" or "one right religion" is taught.

How many people would take the free will so far as to say we agree to be born. Or, can you champion free will and defend yourself if your position is that we do not agree to birth here on earth??

Danke,
Michelle;)
 
I think some people just wish they were smarter than they are, and seek after questions which are masked as intelligent yet reek with stupidity..... Free will is an act of a living being, hence no you were nothing before you were born, you then were created by two other humans... This is then where free will takes place.... before you are born you are nothing... and nothing doesn't have free will does it? because it consists.... of, nothing. You could choose once alive to do things... Miscarriage, die... be born normally..... eat much do not eat much easy birth hard birth cut out of your mothers stomach birth.... Choices begin once you are alive.... and end when you are dead. :) That is my idea and free will opinion on free will...

Regarding birth, obviously you have no freaking say on being created..... obviously.. as you at this point are nothing and are a result of two others free will....
 
Freewill implies a choice. I don't remember having a choice to be born. For that matter, I don't remember making any conscious choices until I was about two or three, probably involving whether I should do a portrait or go abstract as I fingerpainted my own feces on the wall.

ETA: My Mom was a harsh critic of my work.
 
I believe we choose to be born...and a number of other things along the way.

Maybe some incarnations we choose our parents or other traveling companions, or maybe even the maladies we will encounter...

Maybe I knew my ex wife or her boyfriend in another life. And I wished to work on forgiveness, jealousy issues....and they said sure...after 22 years of marriage we'll give you the opportunity.

Or maybe I needed to learn humbleness and agreed to encounter bankruptcy and foreclosure this life.

Or maybe I asked an old buddy to come by and rob me at gunpoint sometime...so I could consider unconditional love.

Am I positive of any of this.... no but I am open to the possibilities.
 
A prisoner in a cell has free-will, it's just that he doesn't get much chance to use it.


... Neemai :)


Has pleanty of chances...

Suicide
Prison Riot
Smuggle drugs
Attack another prisoner
Attempt to Escape
Plead for bail
Write letters to loved ones
Work out become a more efficent killing machine....
Put art on his cell walls to log his history in the place
Stare out the window if he has such a privlidge and dream of freedom
Could go on.... :\
 
{No no ... my undergrad degree was in Philosophy! I too, can paint with feces. Watch:}

I don't believe that we agree to our births here, but it's complicated to try and explain why.

One assumption which I do not make, is that there is a personal God who either would, or would not, offer us a choice on this matter. Instead, I believe in a Deity whose Highest Will is for us to evolve to Perfection, yet this perfection is a relative thing, not some kind of static image, chiseled in stone.

Attainment of Perfection just means that we are ready for the next stage of our evolution, which will likely include incarnations upon purely SPIRITUAL planets, wherein evil as we know it no longer exists. In conditions of such Harmony and Cooperation, it is easy to understand how Humanity must first have evolved to an almost Godlike status, yet this by no means indicates that our Intellects, our Hearts, or our Willpower have become Infinite & unlimited.

Infinity only points us (along) the Way ...

Looking in the Reverse direction, I believe that each human Soul reached status as a Reincarnating Individuality by progressing through the Animal Kingdom ~> first through the lower lifeforms, then through the herd experience (something which Humanity repeats, or recapitulates, on a slightly higher turn of the spiral) ... and finally via domestication, on one planet or another. We repeat this, as individuals, when we reach true independence and self-reliance, which eventually give way to INTER-Dependence and Group-Self-Reliance, even God-[SELF]-Reliance.

As an esotericist, what I struggle with is the Zen Question of - What was our Spiritual state of Being like, before we descended into incarnation, for the very first time?

The trick with this one, based on what I've come to believe and understand about the processes of (Spiritual and material) evolution, is that there was no Individuality, no Consciousness, no `I' even in existence, prior to my evolution through the Animal Kingdom ... much less during the Vegetable, Mineral, and pre-physical phases. So I might well say, WHAT (or `Who') was evolving?

What or whom indeed!

(From an extremely materialistic point of view, I might have some inkling; but this does us little good in terms of our day-to-day, practical awareness.)

The answer for me seems to be Yes and No, regarding the choice to be born.

In one sense, we DID agree to be `born,' in that originally, as a Spark of the Divine, it might be said that our WILL, although embryonic, was in no way different (or other) than that of the Parent Flame. God simply Initiated our Being; and we sprang into Life! :)

However, from THAT moment onward, and actually until we re-join, or attain Union with the Divine (which occurs in many, many stages), the answer would technically be NO. We have `Free Will,' and yet there is a limit to that Free Will. A moment's consideration will show that this theological or philosophical concept must have its boundaries (in terms of actual expression). Otherwise we would simply overthrow God (in whatever realm or realms God is supposed to exist) ... and we would run the show. What, like we haven't TRIED? :eek:

So there is a `ring-pass-not,' or a boundary, to our Free Will. Not to our free will as humans, I mean spiritually. As mortals, our abilities are really extremely limited. The only truly great potential we have must be definied in terms of SPIRIT. We either do, or do not recognize the true source of our potential, or perhaps we sense it to a degree, but hesitate to name it for what it is, and therefore only have a partial perception.

Who will dare to say, "I am (wo)man, and I am God." The one who dares, will know (with more or less accuracy) to just what extent the latter is true, and will also know that this is precisely what gives the authority to say it!

Is it upon our mortal authority that we can even speak at all? Asked another way, did we invent ourselves? As Jesus put it:
"Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?" -- Matthew 6:27
- followed by, "Consider the lilies ..." :)

What the theologian may not grasp, is the very Purpose of an Affirmation. It is not to make a thing so, which is not (already) so. Rather, it is assist the Soul, and thereby cooperate with the God within, that we may come one step closer to also cooperating with the God without.

So when we say, "I am the Soul, I am Light Divine," we are not saying, "I have already attained." Rather, we are affirming that which is already true, and which we are ALL in the process of attaining.

~+~+~

There! How's that for a bit of BS? :rolleyes:
 
~(='.'=)~

fourgrtkidos,

This is how a great psychic explained it to me. We have choice over some things, and we do not have choice over other things. We are slowly being given more and more freedom to control our destinies. As we show we have the maturity to make good decisions on small issues, we are then allowed to make decisions on important issues.

Presently (according to my belief system), we do not have a choice whether to be born (reborn). However, the day will come when we do (when we prove we have the maturity to make such a decision ourselves).

In my opinion, this is a very fair system.
 
Michelle,

I don't follow this statement:

If free will is a truth. Then, wouldn't we have to agree to be born??

Why? Just because we have the power to influence some things, doesn't mean we have influence over everything.

As a matter of fact, there might be nothing over which we have total control. If each of us has free will, then we each affect the future. Therefore the future is the result of all of our choices, my choice having perhaps more weight than yours for some aspects of that future, while yours have more weight on others.

But neither of our choices influenced the past prior to our births (unless we are about to be involved in a temporal loop).

Namiste.;)
 
If free will is a truth. Then, wouldn't we have to agree to be born?? Would a G!d create us and put us on this planet without our consent- given what many people go through in their lives. here....

I am wondering. In light of the suffering and violence that occurs on this planet and that you may or may not be born into a geographic region where "The truth" or "one right religion" is taught.

How many people would take the free will so far as to say we agree to be born. Or, can you champion free will and defend yourself if your position is that we do not agree to birth here on earth??

Danke,
Michelle;)

Hi Michelle,

I think what you're asking presupposes a mature "life being", or soul if you want, which incarnates into a fetus or infant human at some point. This soul possesses a free will before it incarnates it is assumed. That would make incarnating in human form an act of free will on the part of a soul stepping in.

Genesis has God forming man's body from the dust and then infusing the vessel with his minty fresh God breath. Then, it says, man becomes a "living soul." (masculine pronouns for convention). So one could argue from within the free will camp that free will occurs with viability in an infant (fetus, whatever) as part of the natural state of man, while leaving aside or even rebutting the step-in incarnation/ reincarnation model. At least it's possible to say that having free will in the Judeo-Christian sense, based on the OT account, doesn't require the ability to choose whether or not to be born.

Chris
 
As a matter of fact, there might be nothing over which we have total control. If each of us has free will, then we each affect the future. Therefore the future is the result of all of our choices, my choice having perhaps more weight than yours for some aspects of that future, while yours have more weight on others.

But neither of our choices influenced the past prior to our births (unless we are about to be involved in a temporal loop).

Namiste.;)

Hi, and welcome to CR!

I read your excellent analysis of the nature of consciousness on the Philosophy forum. I would say that the future is pre-loaded with intention, which is what gives the experience of the temporal flow of time it's smooth continuity and texture, and movie-like feel. If will is the active choosing function of human consciousness, having arisen as a necessary component of complex consciousness, then free will is the only kind of will there is.

Free will is free in the sense that it doesn't cost any extra because it comes stock on the vehicle. A steering wheel comes with the car. Free will isn't a gift from God. It isn't a special added bonus. "Thank God I have free will." equals "thank God this toaster plugs into the wall." God should be saying "thank Myself I don't have to pull this creation thingy around on a string all the time."

Chris
 
Hi, Chris,

Thanks for the compliment. I'm pretty much in agreement with you, with a few quibbles.

I would say that the future is pre-loaded with intention, which is what gives the experience of the temporal flow of time it's smooth continuity and texture, and movie-like feel.

I'm not comfortable with the word "intention" here. It smacks too much of purpose, of Aristotle's final cause. Of course, since I believe in free will, I believe that much of what happens has purpose. I do want to resist the claim that everything has a purpose. I like Chisholm's word "intension" (with an "s"), because it comprehends all of the various psychological attitudes one might have and which might affect one's choices.

I like your expression "what gives the experience of the temporal flow of time it's smooth continuity and texture, and movie-like feel", though the verisimilitude of movies is because they are like our experience, not vice-versa. What's valuable about it is its recognition that consciousness is a model of reality assembled by complex processing of the brain; it is not merely an assemblage of our direct sensory experience.

If will is the active choosing function of human consciousness, having arisen as a necessary component of complex consciousness, then free will is the only kind of will there is.

I wonder whether the causality suggested here is not backwards. If the evolutionary process i suggested in my other post is accurate, what was essential for evolution to the next higher level was choice: animals had to develop the ability to choose among complex alternatives. Consciousness emerged as a support faculty to enable choice.

Free will is free in the sense that it doesn't cost any extra because it comes stock on the vehicle. A steering wheel comes with the car. Free will isn't a gift from God. It isn't a special added bonus. "Thank God I have free will." equals "thank God this toaster plugs into the wall." God should be saying "thank Myself I don't have to pull this creation thingy around on a string all the time."

The "free" in free will has always puzzled me. Certainly we don't pay an extra fee at the hospital when we bring it home, though I hope that hospital administrators don't read this and discover another revenue option. In some sense it means unfettered, and I've had a lot of philosopher friends argue that we can't have truly free will unless it be totally free, i.e., unless there are no limits on our choices. The trouble is, I can't have totally free will without interfering with yours, since my choices would make things happen without regard to what you are choosing.

That's why I prefer to say that my choices have influence over, i.e., are part of the cause of, what happens. That makes us all co-creators. Of course if we're to make any sense of the concept of responsibility, we have to assume we can meaningfully weigh our respective measures of influence over an occurrence.

Anyway, have a great day.

Namiste.;)
 
I have just now come across a much clearer and more direct statement of something I was trying to say in my earlier post. In the book A Treatise on Cosmic Fire, by Alice Bailey, the following concise summary of the process of spiritual (and human/intellectual, and material) evolution is presented:
The life of God comes cyclically under the influence of the different Hierarchies or forces, all of which temporarily build for it a vehicle, pass it through their substance, give to it in this way a certain quality or coloring, and increase thereby its vibratory capacity until eventually the life is set free from hierarchical limitation. It then returns to its eternal Source plus the gain of its experiences and with the increased energy which is the result of its various transitions.
Just how much insight we can gain into what evolutionary developments take place during our incarnation into each of these Hierarchies, will depend upon our willingness to consider that Humanity's Consciousness may actually exist as part of a vast continuum.

At the least pole of this continuum of consciousness is the FORM which we call an atom. Through a gradual progression - as taught in the Zohar, in the Code of Manu, and in modern esotericism even since medieval times and before - the most primitive forms of life are replaced by increasingly sophisticated forms, as vehicles for the evolving LIFE within.

Consciousness, though undetectable for most of us at so early an evolutionary stage as the atom, is readily observable in the cat or dog, and even if you watch the movements of a jellyfish on the Discovery channel, you cannot help but recognize that there is awareness - however rudimentary - on the part of these magnificent and beautiful aquatic creatures.

Between the most basic unit of evolutionary focus, the atom, and the more developed examples in the animal and human kingdoms, there are a myriad of LIFE-Forms in the mineral and vegetable kingdoms. Each kingdom represents the evolutionary progress of millions upon millions of years - not just of the FORMs which LIFE takes on for its development, but of the LIFE Itself.

And there are those who are exceptionally gifted at understanding the Life within the animal, and lower kingdoms, either through gifts such as clairvoyance and telepathy, or even by direct Spiritual Identification, in the case of advanced disciples and Initiates.

The continuum of consciousness continues in a direction that most of us recognize to one degree or another ... yet somewhere between the collective subconscious and shared dream archetypes of Jungian philosophy, and the objectivity of Plato's world of FORMS and Cave Allegory, we decide that consciousness apparently empties itself into some kind of void, rather than connects with - even evolves into - Deity Itself.

The esotericist, however, can no longer embrace the nihilistic presentation of Eastern mysticism and the conception of Buddhism's Nirvana as emptiness, because s/he has found - through direct experience on perhaps every level of one's being - that Consciousness in fact DOES survive `death' ... continuing, from incarnation to incarnation, toward increasingly clear, understood and accepted GOALS, attained through intentional striving.

The Hierarchies, then, of the above quotation, prove to consist of Conscious Units of LIFE, which exist not-apart-from the Divine Life, or Deity, on the highest levels - or within the innermost reaches - both of our collective, and of our individual, Being. The Divine Spark, prior to evolving its FORM to the level of complexity of a human, with abilities to express more of the Divine than even the most evolved animal is capable .... must first undergo - through the `Cycles of Necessity' - the appropriate rounds of Incarnation within EACH prior Kingdom of LIFE (paradoxically defined, for us, according to the FORMs which this Life takes on).

If we would know more about our Highest, most Spiritual Nature, then we must first study something of the FORMs through which that LIFE - the Life of God - willingly and gladly evolves, though also of Necessity. Yet there are already hundreds of Initiates living upon our planet, in one of the worlds accessible to us or another (physical, astral, mental and Spiritual), and these Initiates of all degress are capable of teaching the serious student exactly what is necessary for our progress. They have done so, and They continue to do so, yet the student will receive only according to his or her demonstrated capacity to Serve ... and his or her willingness to sacrifice the agendas of the little self to those of the Greater, the Soul.

It is found by the student, early on, that only upon entry into the HUMAN Kingdom, does the material evolution of the FORM, fully meet with the purely Spiritual Evolution of the LIFE ... thus giving Birth to an entirely NEW Kingdom, the nature of whose evolution - for us - is primarily Intellectual (at this time). Humanity is actually a bridging Kingdom, and our entire function upon planet Earth might be described as the unification, or bridging, between the three lower kingdoms of life, and the three Spiritual Kingdoms ... each of which, it might be emphasized, has already attained to the FULL development or completion of the same Self-Consciousness which Humanity only recently began to develop.

The continuum of consciousness, if we follow the line of natural and Divinely-designed future progression (hypothetically, and then - hopefully - in thought, word and deed ... in Actualization!), leads the entirety of the Human Family through experiences of self-Initiated challange, growth and discovery (self-discovery, other-discovery and God-discovery) ... eventually concluding in several definite stages of demonstrated Self-Mastery. These have been referred to since ancient times as spiritual Initiations, and have been presented - via religious teachings - as those major, life-transforming experiences which every evolving Soul undergoes in one or another of its final series of Incarnations. Here, the key word is series ...

~+~+~

In realizing that the Life of God exists upon several levels transcending the Human, it becomes apparent to us that in fact, there is a Hierarchy of Consciousness, paralleling (or rather Expressing) the Great Chain of Being. Although ultimately Monistic and truly non-dual on some exalted level (the Supreme Cosmic as some have rendered it in Western traditions), we cannot, any of us, deny that in fact OUR experience of God is quite often subject to the mostly-limiting, and only sometimes-illumining nature of the mind. And that, of course, is when we aren't trapsing through a swamp of quasi-human emotions (much of our astral life is really quite animalistic), or all but completely blinded by the mayavic world of whirling lights, buzzers & bells ... the phantasmagora of physical, sensory experience - enough to make even poor Tommy fumble at his pinball game!

It is quite true that a simple act of kindness, preferably the intentional kind, or even the tenderness and radiant warmth of attention from someone who genuinely cares, can immediately communicate the Love, and the Light, of the Divine ... directly from the most Transcendent levels, straight into the heart and mind of even the most oppressed, or materially blinded of struggling, precious human Souls. Animals, similarly, respond to the Divine Energy by answering from within ... and the sleeping Deity Whom and which lives within their beating hearts, stirs a bit from its dormant state, when we approach our younger Brothers with this kindness. Some of us also know, that trees and plants have the capacity to respond, such that our Karma, from such massacres as widescale deforestation, will take many a kind word to our plant on the windowsill, before the balance between the Kingdoms has been fully restored.

At any rate, As Above, So Below. Just as we can recognize that Consciousness is progressing in its evolution through the lesser kingdoms, we can gain some insight into what things might be like in the Superhuman (the Devic, or Angelic) by looking at certain correspondences. For the next immediate kingdom of life beyond Humanity, the Kingdom of Heaven or of `Souls,' it is not inaccurate to say that we are something like beloved animals. The metaphor will only break down when we feel our Conscience reminding us that our behavior towards our younger animal Brethren is not quite on par with what we KNOW the Divine Law indicates (the Law of Love, written in every human heart, however faintly it is as yet recognized by some).

Our Souls, we know, do not abuse us, or use us for sport, or treat us as anything other than a beloved Friend, adopted for the duration (many, many long cycles of incarnation) ... that through their Loving Sacrifice WE might slowly develop, and ultimately ATTAIN (rather than freely receive, as some kind of handout) the Divine Consciousness which they already possess. And, just as it is true that our animal friends often try to understand us but do not fully "get it" (owing to the lack of the mental principle within them ... or rather, to its development), we may safely say that except in the rarest of instances - the Adept, Master or advanced Initiate - we, too, often miss the mark. The only possible value of GUILT, it will be observed, would be to inspire REFORM ... for otherwise, the resultant self-devaluation - which is often observed in religious types - only further serves to spiritually (or ethically) incapacitate us, adding insult to injury as it were.

The Kingdom of Souls, it should be noted, is one wherein Love and Light already prevail ... yet this does not mean that there is always full agreement, or cooperation, between the various GROUPS which comprise the Human Family. Although it is true that evil as we commonly know it, including all unnecessary suffering and unproductive conflict, does not exist upon the Soul levels, it is also true that there are distinctions which continue to demonstrate as the Power of Choice (or Free Will, if we like). These choices include observation, learning and Spiritual growth as the Soul subjectively experiences the results of its activity under the same Cyclic Law as we are subject to ... just on a higher subsequent turn of the spiral.

Now imagine the relationship between Humanity and that Kingdom which lies one full step beyond that of our own Spiritual Soul(s). Exoteric religions speak little about Beings of this stature, except in Myth and Allegory, in stories, poetry and symbolism. We have the Elohim of Judaism, borrowed by Christianity and revisited in St. John's Vision of the Seven Spirits before the Throne. The Hindu knows these as the Seven Prajapati, the Seven Rishis, or the Seven Mind-Born Sons of Brahma. And Buddhism, especially the secret practices of Tantra, recognizes five exoteric, seven esoteric Dhyani Buddhas, and Dhyani Bodhisattvas.

Each of these systems is the outward product of many, many generations of seekers, finders and codifiers, as well as the direct Revelation(s) of one or another of the same body of Adept Teachers which has always existed upon our Planet, guiding Humanity, guarding the Truth & the Light, and teaching the Wisdom to those willing & capable of living and practicing it. This Conscious Hierarchy of Beings, called by some the Masters of the Wisdom, by others simply the Elder Brothers or the Great Ones, represent the Vanguard, the Pinnacle, the Ultimate, Crowning Glory - and Highest Achievement - of which any man or woman is capable upon our planet, at any given time. In a curious way, They also indicate our own distant and inevitable future, though only up to a certain point (taking into consideration the Divine Efficiency - in terms of presentation of the Divine Plan, much being `over the horizon') ... and only as fully as Humanity's own KARMA will permit!

So, what the esotericist has come to understand, is that the Hierarchy, though technically the Divine Representation of the greatest possible achievement of the 4th Kingdom, as full-fledged, Spiritually-Perfected members of the 5th Kingdom (Souls, having completed their evolutionary trek upon this globe) ... symbolically, and also quite actually, the Adept Hierarchy serves the next highest Kingdom, the Elohim, or Planetary Spirits, as THEIR Representative(s) upon this Planet, for Humanity - thereby BRIDGING between GOD (the Throne), and the Kingdom of evolving Spiritual Souls, just as Humanity bridges between the Soul and all lesser kingdoms.

The question of Free Will will not finally be answered, until and unless we are willing to take a look into the possible Magnitude, and the occult (esoteric) significance, of precisely the Kingdom of Elohim - that PLURALITY of Beings which nonetheless comprise, in the totality of Their expression, our Solar System ... working out the Will of God, from on High. These Seven Spirits before the Throne are clearly observable only in their outermost peregrinations around our central Deity, save to the rarest of Initated and Adept-trained clairvoyants. Those familiar with the custom of the Tibetan Buddhists to circumambulate the stupa, will appreciate how this tradition can be seen as a humble, microcosmic mirror, an emulation, of the motion of the Planets Themselves, as They Journey around the Solar God.

If I have room, I will try to close with the Gayatri, which I will write about on another thread, since this may make some sense to those who can't figure out why I think the Sun is actually `God' ...
Oh Thou,
From Whom all things proceed,
To Whom all things return,
Reveal to us the face of the true Spiritual Sun
Hidden by a disc of golden light
And help us to know the Truth
And to do our whole Duty
As we journey to Thy Sacred Lotus Feet.
OM OM OM
Namaskara,

~Andrew
 
I was hoping for some simple statements. But, you have all gone above my head again.;) I'll re- read and mull over.

I was trying to convey a feeling in my OP of this: Supposedly "G!D" does not impose will on us. (Does this theory work if you talk about a collective Divine Universe and not a single G!d- diety?) So it seems to me that G!d wouldn't thrust you into a horrible existance here on earth, without your agreement. But, maybe that only works out in religions that believe in pre-existance like a well of souls sort a theory- don't Mormons believe that we agree to be born here in order to learn lessons........
If you are "nothing" before and after you die then I get that you do not have any say.
And, I get that if everyone has free will.... my free will may get stampeeded for the collective free will.
 
I would only say that IF, for one of several possible reasons, you do not progress as fully as a SOUL as it is intended in some particular cycle ... then your free will might be kind of temporarily suspended. What that means, is that there's no incarnation, and thus no opportunity for spiritual progress, until another set of circumstances comes around again which is conducive to your Soul's Holy progress.

Theosophists, as also Hindus, Buddhists and Western esotericists, understand that this can and will take place upon other planets - some physical, some non-physical. It already has, in our past, and it accounts for a great portion of current Humanity (which Individualized long ago, while many of us also became Human just a few million years ago, on this planet).

But Earth is generally taught as being the least evolved of the Spiritual evolutions within our particular Solar System, so it only behooves us to get on ahead with it, put our nose to the grindstone, and do our level best to `Come Into Life' - in the Divine sense. In other words, God ain't gonna hatch us up our own, private little planet, if we screw this one up.

Sure, that doesn't fit with what a lot of folks have been taught ... but then, I didn't exactly say I wanted to reincarnate here in some endless cycle, either. I'm afraid a lot of people in the Judeo-Christian tradition, or of a Western mindset, just haven't been exposed to what the Ageless Wisdom has to say about the Law of Rebirth, and instead they are told from a very early age that simple faith, and faith alone, will somehow solve all their problems for them ... and get them into an eternal `Heaven' - where they won't have to worry about it anymore! :rolleyes:

We might wish that things were that simple, but of course, if wishes were horses ... then beggars would ride!

Anyway, I would suggest that the kind of `free will' which it is Divinely intended that we DO exercise, will not actually be capable of stampeding another person's corresponding power of choice - including that person's own judgment, decision and willingness to cooperate with God's Will for their own highest Good. I can tell you that only Rebirth, of the various other possibilities, makes sense to me as the Soul's means of progress upon this or any other planet ... and yet, the moment I try to coerce, or force you to accept that, I cease to express either a Divine quality, or really anything Holy whatsoever. About the only thing I succeed in doing, in fact, is coming across Holier-than-thou! :eek:

So just what did you mean about the stampeding? How would it be possible for this to occur, if in fact, you know, deep within you - as CERTAIN as the stars above - that such 'n such is true, or that thus 'n such is how things are?

You see, that's pretty much how I see a lot of my beliefs, even after I leave plenty of room for the inevitable human error, and inaccuracy of vision, judgment and discernment. There are things which I know I don't know, such as pretty much all of higher mathemathics, and I will not pretend that I have any great gift - or accomplishment, as yet - in that area. But if you ask me something about computers, I can tell you what I know, although there again, I will quickly reach my limit if I even try to fathom the simplest workings of the microchip. Ones and zeros, sure, but do you really know how a three petaflop computer manages to do all that computation? It's like, a dude with an abacus, and about fifty years, to do what that computer just did in .008 seconds! :p

If God gave us all this Free Will, then what about Divine Responsibility? Is that just God's business? Okay, how about `Spiritual responsibility' then? At what point does our human responsibility meet with the kind of grown-up-ness, maturity and even that tendency to look out for other people that makes God a Loving being, and not just some big tyrant up in the sky, zapping the infidels and idol-worshippers with thunderbolts? Or is God just a larger, equally-selfish version of any one of us, different only in the possession of infinite power, while Salvation and Love - if we are so fortunate - can only be bartered from him, at the cost of our immortal soul?

You know I'm not addressing that last bit just to you, fourgrtkidos ... I'm only mentioning that kind of rhetorically, but of course, I am interested in what folks actually think. I am not so sure everyone equates Free Will with the Power-to-Choose, but it's something I have a tendency to do ... and I continue to ask questions as to whether or not this is accurate. Just because I do not buy into the choose-God's-ways-or-suffer-eternal-hell, doesn't meant I don't ponder this question, even from a Judeo-Christian angle ...

Oh well, so much for a short reply!

~Andrew
 
~(='.'=)~

fourgrtkidos, you said,
"Supposedly "G!D" does not impose will on us."
--> I agree that "He" does not.
"Does this theory work if you talk about a collective Divine Universe and not a single G!d- diety?"
--> It does.
"So it seems to me that G!d wouldn't thrust you into a horrible existance here on earth, without your agreement."
It see it as "God" allowing us to come here, not forcing us. This may be a horrible place, but I do not see another system as being better.
"...maybe that only works out in religions that believe in pre-existance like a well of souls sort a theory...."
--> I believe in the pre-existence of "souls", and my belief system does not believe we were thrust into this existence against our will.
"If you are "nothing" before and after you die then I get that you do not have any say."
--> This assumes we are "nothing" before and after we die. I see no reason to make this assumption. Do you?
"...if everyone has free will.... my free will may get stampeeded for the collective free will."
--> I think that, once you achieve cosmic consciousness, you will be so busy helping other people, you will forget your own needs entirely.
 
Back
Top