Bush vs. Cuba

[Pathless]

As if he hadn't already created and isn't continuing to create enough trouble in the world, our most shameful imperialist and delusional leader here in the U.S. of A. spoke last week about bringing freedom to Cuba--not through his traditional use of bombs, apparently, but through continued sanctions, support of Cuban-American dissidents, and a laughable "Freedom Fund."

More:

Bush Urges Support For Democracy in Cuba - October 25, 2007 - The New York Sun
Cuba responds to Bush
Venezuela Warns U.S. that "Cuba is Not Alone" | venezuelanalysis.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/26/opinion/l26cuba.html

 

[bob x]

Nothing that Bush says on the subject is going to be of any importance a year from now, so don't get in a twist about it.

 

[wil]

Cuba is a conundrum that many a President has inherited, and not one...Democrat or Republican has done much about. Everyone lives in glass houses on this debate.

I've got friends and associates that have been in and out of Cuba over the past 20 years...its a mess. It was never self sustaining, for decades it was supported by the USSR as a shining example of communism as a thorn in our side 90 miles off of Key West...truth was it was a hole that Mother Russia pushed money into for propaganda sake and it was never well...

Rolling power outages, gas shortages, no car parts, it is extensive. The people love Americans and their dollars...slide in on your sailboat and live like a peasant king on $10 a day...

 

[17th Angel]

slide in on your sailboat and live like a peasant king on $10 a day...

I have done that a few times to places in Europe oh and Russia... It is amazing for the first few seconds.... Then it feels like ****.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Wil,

It is too easy and very simplistic to be critical of the Cuban economy. The US not only puts a blanket ban on trade for American businesses but threatens every other country with sanctions should they trade with them. And at least in Cuba if you are poor and sick you can still go to hospital and be treated which in my opinion makes it an infinitely more civilised nation than the US. American consumerism and affluence may be a magnet to many Cubans, there are a lot of greedy people after all, but Castro's regime despite its shortcomings enjoys huge popular support. I have nothing but admiration for Castro and the Cuban people for standing up for a different set of values in the face of such a powerful and hostile neighbour. South America is in a phase of social rejuvenation with ordinary citizens rather than the businesses puppets taking the reigns of power. I sincerely hope that we see South America truly unite under social values and show the US people that caring about those at the bottom is good for everybody.

Tao

 

[bob x]

And at least in Cuba if you are poor and sick you can still go to hospital and be treated which in my opinion makes it an infinitely more civilised nation than the US.

Indeed. I'm uninsured in the US and having some mysterious health problems, and I am having a terrible time trying to find a doctor who will take uninsured patients even for a general checkup.

 

[wil]

Castro's regime despite its shortcomings enjoys huge popular support. I have nothing but admiration for Castro and the Cuban people for standing up for a different set of values in the face of such a powerful and hostile neighbour.

Namaste Bob and Tao,

I've been in and out of many hospitals and emergency rooms, while getting a doctor's appt may be an issue, I know there are whole wings of indigent patients in inner city hospitals getting free medical care.

As for popular support of Castro...this we will never truly know until he is gone. Then when the people can speak freely we'll find out what they have to say. It is all third hand for me, but those that have risked their lives to get away on any makeshift boat/raft they can create...I don't see them doing that because they love their leader.

Yes the US is slow on universal health care...it stems from strong independent, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, entrepreneurial values. Our pioneering spirit, taking land, wiping out buffalo and Indians rewards resourceful self starters and doesn't abide by those who wish to live on the dole. However our gov't has grown to such size that between gov't and the industry of the infrastructure (roads, utilities etc) most of us are on the dole one way or another...

 

[Pathless]

Wil,

It is too easy and very simplistic to be critical of the Cuban economy. The US not only puts a blanket ban on trade for American businesses but threatens every other country with sanctions should they trade with them. And at least in Cuba if you are poor and sick you can still go to hospital and be treated which in my opinion makes it an infinitely more civilised nation than the US. American consumerism and affluence may be a magnet to many Cubans, there are a lot of greedy people after all, but Castro's regime despite its shortcomings enjoys huge popular support. I have nothing but admiration for Castro and the Cuban people for standing up for a different set of values in the face of such a powerful and hostile neighbour. South America is in a phase of social rejuvenation with ordinary citizens rather than the businesses puppets taking the reigns of power. I sincerely hope that we see South America truly unite under social values and show the US people that caring about those at the bottom is good for everybody.

Tao

Very much my opinion and sentiments as well, Tao.

 

[Pathless]

As for popular support of Castro...this we will never truly know until he is gone. Then when the people can speak freely we'll find out what they have to say. It is all third hand for me, but those that have risked their lives to get away on any makeshift boat/raft they can create...I don't see them doing that because they love their leader.

Well we certainly won't find out through listening to our own government, who has a strong economic and ideological bias against the Cuban Revolution. However, I know of one available book at least that takes care to paint the Cuban Revolution from a perspective of the revolutionaries and the Cuban people.

Amazon.com: Revolutionary Cuba: Books: Terence Cannon

Some excerpts from the book are available online as well:

U.S.-Cuba Relations
Cuba, racism and racial discrimination

The history of cuba website is a good resource to take a different look at Cuba than the one espoused by the mainstream United States press machine.

Yes the US is slow on universal health care...it stems from strong independent, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, entrepreneurial values. Our pioneering spirit, taking land, wiping out buffalo and Indians rewards resourceful self starters and doesn't abide by those who wish to live on the dole. However our gov't has grown to such size that between gov't and the industry of the infrastructure (roads, utilities etc) most of us are on the dole one way or another...

Wil, this isn't simply about a welfare state vs one of self-determination. The U.S. has never been a fair playing field for most. "Entrepreneurial values" lead to many resources in the hands of the few, while the rest are told that it's their own damn fault that they are going hungry. Your comment about wiping out buffalo and Indians... Jesus, I am going to assume that you are trying to be somehow tongue-in-cheek ironic, but it just doesn't sit well.

 

[wil]

The title of the thread seems to indicate Bush somehow as the bad guy in this situation....interesting how we got there....what little I know amounts to this...

A revolution occurred...US businessmen and tourists previously frequented Cuba much to the benefit of Cuba's economy. Cuba began nationlizing US business interests there..taking over factories, hotels, casinos etc which caused US business millions...US in turn quit buying Cuba's sugar...USSR started buying the sugar...Cuba nationalized remaining businesses...US began tightening embargo restrictions...

Nuclear warheads are moved to Cuba (I at the time was in Arizona and we were taught to kneel and lace our hands over our neck to 'protect' ourselves from a nuclear explosion) Now we in the US were pretty scared of nukes, afterall we unleashed them on the world and saw the damage they could cause. So a democrat named Kennedy pulled the missles near Russia and in turn they pulled the nukes from Cuba...and so a Democrat was in charge when it all started...

Now who reinforced this embargo and upgraded it to criminal penalties since under Reagan and Bush I companies began dealing with Cuba again?? Another Democrat President Clinton...

So yes, Castro and the Cuban people have been a pawn, tit for tat between the Soviet Union and the US for years...but I'd love to hear how this is entirely the US at fault and why it is ok to bring US money to town to build businesses and factories and industry and then nationalize them and not pay for the efforts and benefits created...(and then moan the US doesn't do enough)

And yes....when to Democratic President's imposed the embargo's I'd love to know how Bush is the bad guy?

 

[Pathless]

And yes....when to Democratic President's imposed the embargo's I'd love to know how Bush is the bad guy?

Simply because he is. He has done nothing but impose a misguided, unilateral, capitalist and military-backed will on the world since he came to power.

As far as the rest, I am not sympathetic to the bickering between a two-in-one party system at this point. You seem to be under the impression that I hold John F Kennedy, Clinton, and the democratic left in high regard. Let me clear you up on that right now: I do not.

 

[wil]

Well we certainly won't find out through listening to our own government, who has a strong economic and ideological bias against the Cuban Revolution. However, I know of one available book at least that takes care to paint the Cuban Revolution from a perspective of the revolutionaries and the Cuban people.....

Wil, this isn't simply about a welfare state vs one of self-determination. The U.S. has never been a fair playing field for most. "Entrepreneurial values" lead to many resources in the hands of the few, while the rest are told that it's their own damn fault that they are going hungry. Your comment about wiping out buffalo and Indians... Jesus, I am going to assume that you are trying to be somehow tongue-in-cheek ironic, but it just doesn't sit well.

Namaste Pathless,

I tend to put as large a grain of salt on Terrence's view as I do the party line of the US...as I said...I don't believe we will know until Castro is gone and everyone is free to speak. In Michael Moore's latest epic he tried to depict Cuba as this great state of public health...however he didn't take his camera crews into a hospital or pharmacy that the average Cuban would attend, no he went to the facilities that the party elite uses...the Cuban upperclass... it was all propaganda, not a documentary...the day someone can provide information looking at both sides...I'll listen. Like I said, of those that I know that travel there, and those that I know escaped from there...they don't paint a pretty picture...and they are not fond of Castro's regime.

Of course my reference to our indigenous peoples and mammals which we exterminated was tongue in cheek...but it is factual...it is part of our collective past, and I admit it....as well as slavery....of course there isn't a continent on earth that didn't enslave and take advantage of other people they conquered....including Castro's Cuba.

As far as pulling oneself up by your bootstraps...unless one is physically or mentally incapable this is the land of the free and the brave. I've been homeless, the alcoholic drug addict living on the streets...in quite a few different states and different towns...I've been flat broke more times than I can remember...I've recently loss my house to foreclosure after a divorce. Now I could whine, poor whoa is me. I've barely got a high school education because I chased women, and partied and cheated my way thru... no college education... but I can make a living, I've got the benefit of all my fingers and toes and the abilities to use them, I luckily decided to get out of control of booze and drugs prior to them consuming every brain cell...and when I decided to take charge of my life...I climbed the ladder...without stepping on toes....and when life thru another curveball and I was bankrupt again...I chose not to wallow but to come back again...I'm not rich by any stretch of imagination...but somehow am again in the top 10% despite being a screw-off well over half my life.

Choices...thank G!d I live in a country that gives me choices...

 

[wil]

Simply because he is....

You seem to be under the impression that I hold John F Kennedy, Clinton, and the democratic left in high regard. Let me clear you up on that right now: I do not.

Well that is an argument against him! Granted Alfred E Newman has his faults...I just don't see this as one of them... You and I are in the same boat...and it ain't the two party boat that is pulling the oars in the same direction...

 

[Pathless]

Well wil, thanks for sharing about your life in the gutter and your subsequent reformation into the American system.

I tend to put as large a grain of salt on Terrence's view as I do the party line of the US...as I said...I don't believe we will know until Castro is gone and everyone is free to speak.

Okay, I will give you the benefit of my doubts and take what you are saying here at face value. So what happens when Castro is gone becomes the question. Will the land revert to a colony of western civilization, or will the people be given actual self-determination?

Of course my reference to our indigenous peoples and mammals which we exterminated was tongue in cheek...but it is factual...it is part of our collective past, and I admit it....as well as slavery....of course there isn't a continent on earth that didn't enslave and take advantage of other people they conquered....including Castro's Cuba.

Now wil, as I understand it--and correct me if I am wrong--the Cuban Revolution was and is about taking the power back from the colonizing forces and putting it into the hands of those that live in Cuba. We can certainly criticize them for having a dictator, but I won't, because it would make me feel like a damn hypocrite.

The native population of Cuba was indeed slaughtered and enslaved, but not by Castro or the M-26-7 or even the Communist Party. That genocide was perpetrated by Diego Valesquez and Diego Columbus under orders from Spain. After Spain let go of Cuba, she became the property of the United States, to be used for economic interests. The people living there, as the people of Iraq nowadays, and as the black Africans and white indentured servants of the United States itself, became resources to be exploited for wealth.

 

[wil]

Well wil, thanks for sharing about your life in the gutter and your subsequent reformation into the American system.

The native population of Cuba was indeed slaughtered and enslaved, but not by Castro or the M-26-7 or even the Communist Party. That genocide was perpetrated by Diego Valesquez and Diego Columbus under orders from Spain. After Spain let go of Cuba, she became the property of the United States, to be used for economic interests. The people living there, as the people of Iraq nowadays, and as the black Africans and white indentured servants of the United States itself, became resources to be exploited for wealth.

Namaste Pathless,

Yes, I was a revolutionary...still am, but found making a living and feeding myself and children actually easier than complaining the world is all against me. Yes I pay far more in taxes each year than I used to make but I also actively protest wars...and fight for the environment and other causes I champion...living next to DC does have its advantages in that regard. I discuss this all the time in holistic communities and environmental groups...without money you sit around talking about what could be done....with money you have the freedom and the resources to do it....a big reason to decide to get off your butt. While I am not by any means proud of everything our country has done and does, neither do I have a knee jerk reaction thinking we are at fault in every instance. And while our 20 billion dollars a year in aid and our 50 billion we typically spend in military support around the world is a pittance compared to our overall economy...it is many multiples of any other nation....and without our capitalist entrepreneurial bullish economy and if we embraced socialism...we wouldn't have that money or defense to provide the world. And yes while I've been actively against the Iraq debacle...I think the French, English, Europeans, Australians appreciate that we had a military to fight Hitler...and we did some good in Bosnia, and while we could have done more in Somalia and Rawanda and other places....we don't run the show...but we elect those that do... more than I can say for Cuba.

I've learned quite a bit about Cuba this afternoon...thanx...

It appears before Castro Cuba was no slouch country and definitely not oppressed by US interests...thriving better than much of our south...

So I don't take on any burden for Spain oppressing indigenous Cubans except the shame of humanity at times...same with those that Castro jailed or lost their lives since he took power...

I just googled Cuba before revolution for a ton more reading...I'd be interested to hear what you think. I also googled political prisoners and found this...many articles from human rights watch. I'd also be interested in what you find there.

 

[Pathless]

Yes, wil, I also make a living. Kudos to you for what you are doing to create change.

My reactions are not knee-jerk. I see all around me inequality, and I do consider it. I spend a good amount of time reading. I do sit while I do this. So yeah, I'm on my butt a lot. Sometimes when I post in these forums, I must admit my aim is to agitate. I see a lot of complacency in the current American culture, and it does frustrate me. We drop bombs on problems that I see as clearly tied to our own economics and foreign policies. We are a bully for capitalism. Yet I don't think capitalism works. It is an economic system that (dys)functions by creating alienation, discord, and destruction. I don't think that is an overstatement.

If we embraced socialism... now there is something to ponder. I wonder, if we embraced socialism, would we be fighting the wars we are now?

Socialist Party USA

I am willing to consider and accept that Cuba is not a shining light for human rights. If you look through this thread, I think you will find that I never made the claim that their system was perfect. What I would like people to consider is basically what Tao so succinctly said. Cuba is a sovereign nation. Why, then, does the United States have such difficulty treating it as one? Our attitude seems to be one of patronimony: "If Cuba won't embrace democracy as we espouse it, if they won't be a little brother to us in capitalism, well... then we will have to impose sanctions!!" I wonder how much of the crippled health care system of Cuba could be alleviated if indeed the United States began to act altruistically. I don't know, but I would imagine simply removing the embargos we have against Cuba might help revitalize their economy. What do you think?

I find it similar to the situation of sanctions in Iraq. We didn't approve of Saddam (again, someone who we supported whole-heartedly at another time), so we made the citizens of the country suffer through deprivation. Did Saddam suffer from our sanctions? No, not really. I wonder if Fidel Castro has suffered from U.S. economic sanctions along with the people of Cuba. I really don't know.

I am just so tired of people in this country making excuses for the exploitation of the rest of the world for our benefit. It really is sickening to me to hear you talk about how we have choices and repeatedly imply that we are so lucky to live in the U.S.A. Certainly I am not going to disagree with you that we have many advantages over citizens in other nations. Where I do take exception is in justifying and defending an ultimately unbalanced and unfair system. I am not just whining about my own lot in life. I recognize and appreciate that I have it quite easy; yet that doesn't stop me from criticizing the corrupt structure of the United States. I don't know what else to do, honestly, except agitate. Too many people are suffering and dying daily because of run-away economics for me to be happy about living within the largest perpetrator of economic injustice on the globe.

That is simply how I see it.

Peace,
Pathless

 

[bob x]

Uh, Wil, it was EISENHOWER who put the embargo on Cuba.

 

[wil]

Uh, Wil, it was EISENHOWER who put the embargo on Cuba.

Namaste Bob and Pathless...

Yes didn't he start as a response to the nationalization, tit for tat but wasn't it made 10 fold stronger during Kennedy and then put into law during Clinton?

Pathless, I agree we have issues, but you think socialism is the answer? To me capitalism drives people to invent, create, manufacture, contemplate a brighter future for themselves and the world. Don't get me wrong, there was a time when I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly, I have my old voting cards to prove it....they've changed over the years...and they might change again...my leanings now are more libertarian.

But I don't see capitalist countries moving towards socialism...I see in the world socialist countries that had failing economies moving towards capitalism. If you can't feed your people as country you are not succeeding. Yes their is poverty and folks starving in the US...but it is not the norm..we are basically at full employment...I know in my reality any time I didn't work it wasn't due to lack of work...it was due to lack of wanting to work on my part...when I decided to go to work, I quickly found work.

I'm wondering though...Cuba embargo for example. Say I hate Skippy peanut butter, I don't like their business policy, their employment practices or the taste of the their product...I impose sanctions..I quit buying them, I tell all my friends and family to quit buying them, I start a campaign to get everyone to quit buying them. The company goes broke due to my efforts, closes its factories all its people are unemployed... Just like we do when we protest against nukes, or some other company we deem non green or against our personal policy and agenda...how does that differ from one country putting pressure on another?

Do you think we should back out of the UN and not support that international body and their sanctions? Back out of World Bank and Intl Monetary Fund? Our peddling of influence is a two edged sword is it not?

 

[Pathless]

Pathless, I agree we have issues, but you think socialism is the answer?

It certainly seems to make more sense to me than capitalism.

Yes didn't he start as a response to the nationalization, tit for tat but wasn't it made 10 fold stronger during Kennedy and then put into law during Clinton?

And yet the nationalization of Cuba's sugar product was in response to the monopolies of U.S. corporations that invaded the land in the lates 1800s. It is all written in history for us to see, if we want to.

Take a look at that book by Terrence Cannon, or find the books by Philip Foner about the historic relations between the United States and Cuba. Until you take off your nationalistic blinders or until I put mine on, I don't think we are going to see eye-to-eye on this.

 

[Pathless]

I'm wondering though...Cuba embargo for example. Say I hate Skippy peanut butter, I don't like their business policy, their employment practices or the taste of the their product...I impose sanctions..I quit buying them, I tell all my friends and family to quit buying them, I start a campaign to get everyone to quit buying them. The company goes broke due to my efforts, closes its factories all its people are unemployed... Just like we do when we protest against nukes, or some other company we deem non green or against our personal policy and agenda...how does that differ from one country putting pressure on another?

Do you think we should back out of the UN and not support that international body and their sanctions? Back out of World Bank and Intl Monetary Fund? Our peddling of influence is a two edged sword is it not?

I don't hate Cuba peanut butter.

I also don't think the World Bank does the world much good. The U.N.? Do you think that the United States works honestly within the U.N.? From what I see, the U.S. sends its bullies there too, and refuses to recognize international law. You cannot be serious, about the U.S. and the U.N....?