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17th Angel

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Have you seen the little piggies crawling in the d
'as-salāmu calaykum!

If you don't mind.... Could I just like, have -this- space... And when something pops into my mind that I cannot understand alone, just throw it out here and ask you beautiful people your thoughts/understanding of the topic whatever it might be (concerning Islam of course....)


maca salāma
 
Marhaban!

Ok it begins..... The five pillars of Islam are the outlines of the way to live correctly as a Muslim.... I understand this... However, the second(?) pillar is prayer.... You have to pray five times a day to Allah..... Dawn, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset and night? Are there specific times at these periods? Like anytime at mid-afternoon? Also... There is a way to pray.... Such as in christianity and such you can pray, eyes closed/open, standing, sitting, laying, kneeling, out loud, quiet.... Is there some importance in the "stance" you take to pray? Also another part of the five pillars... The fith.. You must pilgrimage to Makkah.. (the Hajj I believe?) What does this represent? I mean, sorry, I am still stuck on other religions, What is of importance in Makkah? Isn't Allah, everywhere?

-edit-
lol.... OK another thing!! "la ilaha illa Allah, Muhammadur rasoolu Allah"..... That is all that is needed to become Muslim? To say that with conviction... And "you're in." There are no rituals or anything? Also does this -have- to be said in Arabic? If so... Why does it have to be said in Arabic? Allah obviously understands all languages, and it seems like the language wouldn't be that important?... I've missed something right? And why is Muhammad (ṣallā llahu ʿalayhi wa sallam) Placed on near enough the same level of importance? As you may of noticed what I typed after saying his name... And that is the norm correct? You don't do the same for God?

maca salāma
 
Marhaban!

Ok it begins..... The five pillars of Islam are the outlines of the way to live correctly as a Muslim.... I understand this... However, the second(?) pillar is prayer.... You have to pray five times a day to Allah..... Dawn, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset and night? Are there specific times at these periods? Like anytime at mid-afternoon? Also... There is a way to pray.... Such as in christianity and such you can pray, eyes closed/open, standing, sitting, laying, kneeling, out loud, quiet.... Is there some importance in the "stance" you take to pray? Also another part of the five pillars... The fith.. You must pilgrimage to Makkah.. (the Hajj I believe?) What does this represent? I mean, sorry, I am still stuck on other religions, What is of importance in Makkah? Isn't Allah, everywhere?

maca salāma
Namaste 17th,

What a journey you are embarking my brother! The first thing about the trip as I understand it (please note to all those who are Muslim, I am replying completely out of my understanding, for my growth and correction as well as 17th's) Anyhow the trip is for those who can afford it, physically, mentally, spiritually, financially. It is something recommended something to strive for, something to yearn for once in your life. If you continue on this path you are currently taking, in my opinion, the trip to Mecca will be a given.

Prayers, rules, oh yes, submission to Allah, means complete respect. In this process, you'll learn the prayers, and the times, and the positions (five points on the ground) and the preparation, you don't go into communion with the One unclean, in body, mind, or spirit.

I'm getting goosebumps (chicken skin) thinking about the exploration you are taking.
 
Namaste 17th,

What a journey you are embarking my brother! The first thing about the trip as I understand it (please note to all those who are Muslim, I am replying completely out of my understanding, for my growth and correction as well as 17th's) Anyhow the trip is for those who can afford it, physically, mentally, spiritually, financially. It is something recommended something to strive for, something to yearn for once in your life. If you continue on this path you are currently taking, in my opinion, the trip to Mecca will be a given.

Prayers, rules, oh yes, submission to Allah, means complete respect. In this process, you'll learn the prayers, and the times, and the positions (five points on the ground) and the preparation, you don't go into communion with the One unclean, in body, mind, or spirit.

I'm getting goosebumps (chicken skin) thinking about the exploration you are taking.

Ahlan sadiqi Wil! :D

No idea why, I just am feeling drawn the more I read into this Brother... Which, (for me) is not what is expected to happen.... I tend to look into something slightly... And in honesty I guess I look into it for small details, so I can rip it apart with blind comments... I have been studying since past Friday, wishing to gain more and more of an undertanding and something, is different about the manner to which I am approaching this..... Ok fine that is what four days... And there are those that have been studying for their life... I seem eager to understand and learn more, which seriously means something, lol...Also Wil! I find it quite significant the way to which you greeted me in your previous post.... It means alot...

maca salāma
 
Salamun Alikum!

Well although in the west we hear too much about the pillars, Islam begins with creed/belief. Belief is like gasoline, pillars are like engine, the politico-socio-economic system around you is your lane. Get some high octane fuel, nice roaring engine, keep in your lane, enjoy the ride.......it’s so simple.
The core essence of Islam lies in believing in God. Now everybody believes in some thing that brought him here, some call it all-mighty coincidence, others supreme soul (parm-aatma) etc. In Islam there are some core attributes of God that come with this belief.

First & foremost, he is the all mighty; he can do anything & their aint nobody who can do anything about it.

Since the universe is an expression of his thought, he is the source of all wisdom/knowledge. He has got no beginning, no end, time is his creation, so it doesnt apply upon him. Since has no begining/end, & no needs, he doesn’t have father, son,wives, uncles etc. He prefers to be refefred to as all-compsssionate, but makes it clear that he isnt all sugar. So one cant fu*k up his planet & imagine to away with it, as he is usually very dedicated regarding the balancing of equations.

Next are belief in angles, prophets, books & day of judgment.

Five pillars start with pronouncing the shaada. That’s more like making things official for society/state. The thing between you & Allah happened much before it, in private. Pronouncing it in Arabic in front of two people is the standard ritual, nothing more (people usually enjoy candies afterwards:D).
And why is Muhammad (ṣallā llahu ʿalayhi wa sallam) Placed on near enough the same level of importance? As you may of noticed what I typed after saying his name... And that is the norm correct? You don't do the same for God?
It’s not Muhammad, but his prophethood that comes next to monotheism. He is the reigning prophet right now, so it’s necessary to accept him. Otherwise there are others too who accept One God, so that’s the main difference there.
What you typed afterwards is peace & blessings of God be upon him. Technically speaking, it couldn’t have been said for God. Why would he bless himself? :cool:

However, the second(?) pillar is prayer.... You have to pray five times a day to Allah..... Dawn, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset and night? Are there specific times at these periods? Like anytime at mid-afternoon? Also... There is a way to pray.... Such as in christianity and such you can pray, eyes closed/open, standing, sitting, laying, kneeling, out loud, quiet.... Is there some importance in the "stance" you take to pray?
You can find a lot here (Salah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Although its translated as prayer, the word literally means connection or contact.

Also another part of the five pillars... The fith.. You must pilgrimage to Makkah.. (the Hajj I believe?) What does this represent? I mean, sorry, I am still stuck on other religions, What is of importance in Makkah? Isn't Allah, everywhere?
Hajj is more like once in a life time collective experience for Muslims. Muslims do it because they saw their prophet doing it. The prophet did what has been a tradition of Ishmael & Abraham. Circumambulation is what they did after rebuilding kaaba. Circumambulation has been a norm for sacrifice since ancient times. Sai between safa & marwa is what hagar did when she was searching for water in the desert. There are three pillars that are stoned. When Abraham was going to sacrifice Ishmael, these were the places where Satan came to him & said,” Are you nuts”. Hajj ends with shaving one’s head (for men) & sacrificing animals. Kind of a reminder of what happened with Ishmael back then. So a big part of hajj is living the lives of these three chosen people, kind of … experiencing the feelings of being chosen for/by God…..like them. Other than that, there is the kaaba, & a glimpse into the lives of millions of Muslims around the world. There is a lot more that goes on there, that changes people,s lives. Not everything can be explained in words. All in all a very powerful experience.

And yes God is every where, but you arnt focussed towards him because of your daily life. Hajj is kind of a 3-day monasticism.
 
Well although in the west we hear too much about the pillars, Islam begins with creed/belief. Belief is like gasoline, pillars are like engine, the politico-socio-economic system around you is your lane. Get some high octane fuel, nice roaring engine, keep in your lane, enjoy the ride.......it’s so simple.
The core essence of Islam lies in believing in God. Now everybody believes in some thing that brought him here, some call it all-mighty coincidence, others supreme soul (parm-aatma) etc. In Islam there are some core attributes of God that come with this belief.

Salamun alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuhuu,

That would seem like some are confusing fate for coincidence.... ;) Farhan like the way you made that picture.... Appreciate it.

First & foremost, he is the all mighty; he can do anything & their aint nobody who can do anything about it.

Since the universe is an expression of his thought, he is the source of all wisdom/knowledge. He has got no beginning, no end, time is his creation, so it doesnt apply upon him. Since has no begining/end, & no needs, he doesn’t have father, son,wives, uncles etc. He prefers to be refefred to as all-compsssionate, but makes it clear that he isnt all sugar. So one cant fu*k up his planet & imagine to away with it, as he is usually very dedicated regarding the balancing of equations.

Merciful but ready to punish, same concept as the christian god... I guess?

Next are belief in angles, prophets, books & day of judgment.

Five pillars start with pronouncing the shaada. That’s more like making things official for society/state. The thing between you & Allah happened much before it, in private. Pronouncing it in Arabic in front of two people is the standard ritual, nothing more (people usually enjoy candies afterwards ).

You get candy as well? That must be a special day, when that person finds who they are and what they stand for.... And they then make this public and that must be something, but to top it all..... You get some candy? What else could one want?


It’s not Muhammad, but his prophethood that comes next to monotheism. He is the reigning prophet right now, so it’s necessary to accept him. Otherwise there are others too who accept One God, so that’s the main difference there.
What you typed afterwards is peace & blessings of God be upon him. Technically speaking, it couldn’t have been said for God. Why would he bless himself?

I understand now, (Oh and yes I knew what I was typing in Arabic after his name) Just I wasn't 100% sure why as I am used to christian prophets... And It's hard not to try and relate them, I shall free my mind of that eventually... Hard not to try to tie things together........ And being the Almighty I see why Allah couldn't be blessed or need blessing.


You can find a lot here (Salah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Although its translated as prayer, the word literally means connection or contact.

Sweet! Shokran jazeelan!

Hajj is more like once in a life time collective experience for Muslims. Muslims do it because they saw their prophet doing it. The prophet did what has been a tradition of Ishmael & Abraham. Circumambulation is what they did after rebuilding kaaba. Circumambulation has been a norm for sacrifice since ancient times. Sai between safa & marwa is what hagar did when she was searching for water in the desert. There are three pillars that are stoned. When Abraham was going to sacrifice Ishmael, these were the places where Satan came to him & said,” Are you nuts”. Hajj ends with shaving one’s head (for men) & sacrificing animals. Kind of a reminder of what happened with Ishmael back then. So a big part of hajj is living the lives of these three chosen people, kind of … experiencing the feelings of being chosen for/by God…..like them. Other than that, there is the kaaba, & a glimpse into the lives of millions of Muslims around the world. There is a lot more that goes on there, that changes people,s lives. Not everything can be explained in words. All in all a very powerful experience.

And yes God is every where, but you arnt focussed towards him because of your daily life. Hajj is kind of a 3-day monasticism.

Wow... lol. That is indeed one big experince I can imagine.... You get candy after that too? (Or am I just being greedy?) Shaving of the head.... That is just as a reminder and nothing else behind it? OH! And can you only go once? Or can you continue to come this? Also what animal is sacraficed? And is it done... You know in a humane way?

maca salāma
 
'as-salāmu calaykum

One other area I am looking into which I cannot find any information on.... Which could be because there is a special word to describe it... The cutting of one's own forehead.... Sorry I am being brief, I saw once upon a time such an event on a TV show.... Many walking through the streets with blood down their faces and clothes..... Anyone have any idea what I am speaking of? Or perhaps I am confused?

maca salāma
 
17th my friend, you know I love you but

SLOW DOWN

take a deep breath. Now we can begin ....... ;)
 
The words bull in a china shop spring to mind - although I do understand why.

The thing with the blood belongs to Shia Islam and it is only them that do it. They beat themselves with chains, in remembrence of Hussein, the grandson of the Prophet ohammad) that died in battle over the Caliphate. I am asking myself why you want to know about that?! That is not a road I would like to travel or encourage you to.

So we are going to read and learn - slowly. We are also going to avoid radical ideas and if I see you headed in that direction guess what is gonna happen?? ;)

I am not trying to patronise you, just get you to examine whether this is about faith or a desire to learn a fascinating subject. Either way is fine but make sure you know which. Islam is a way of life and to become a good Muslim you must 'live' Islam.

Other than Allah (swt) nobody would be happier if you wanted to become a Muslim than I and I know what a blessing it can be and the peace it can bring to your life and mind. However you must be sincere and learn.

The five Pillars:

1. Faith - as you know the declaration of faith is called Shahada =

ashadu an la ilaha illa-llah, wa ashadu anna Muhammadan rasulullah

meaning - I testisfy there is no god but G-d and I testify that Mohammad is the Messenger of G-d.

The most important part of the Shahada is intention and sincerity, it must come from the heart. Mohammad was not some clever bloke with a plan, he was the Seal of the Prophets and must be respected as so.

The Shahada also makes up part of the Adhan (call to prayer which you hear from the mosque). Here is some good info on the Adhan:

Adhan: The Call to Prayer

2. Prayer - Salat.

The 5 daily prayers are performed facing the direction of the Ka'aba (where you see ' in the middle of a word it is a glottal stop, a distinct momentary pause in the word). We do not worship the Ka'aba, it is simply a focal point for all Muslims.

The history of the Ka'aba can be found here:

Kaaba, Ka'aba, Black Stone, hajr-e-aswad

To begin with praying is a complicated matter, this site will take you through it step by step:

The Basics of the Muslim’s Prayer)

For prayer you must also dress correctly according to your gender and in your mind have the intention to pray. Prayer is very personal, you are trying to connect to Allah, you are prostrating in front of Him, not just 'grovelling in the dust' as non Muslims often suggest.

3. Charity - zakah. This is not charity in the way we think of it in the West.

It is voluntary but is also a moral obligation given to us by Allah. Nothing 'belongs' to us, everything belongs to Allah and we are simply entrusted to look after it. Zakat is set at 2.5% of your capital but you can give more but not to the point of doing without or making your family do without. Even smiling at someone is a form of chairty.

Prophet said when he was asked 'What if a person has nothing?' he replied 'He should work with his own hands for his benefit and then give something out of such earnings in charity.' Then asked 'What if he is not able to work?' The Prophet said: 'He should help poor and needy persons.' Then further asked 'What if he cannot do even that?' The Prophet said 'He should urge others to do good.' Then asked 'What if he lacks that also?' The Prophet said 'He should check himself from doing evil. That is also charity.'

4. Fast - Sawm

For Muslims this is a spiritual and moral time. We not only avoid food, drink, smoking, sexual relations but also arguing, thinking bad thoughts, etc. From the first sign of dawn until the last ray of light at dusk we devote our minds to glorifying Allah.

5. Pilgrimage - Hajj

Every Muslim, if they are physically and financially able to perform hajj once before they die. Hajj is to the Ka'aba in Mecca and is our response to the call of Allah.

Pilgrims wear simple clothes, which remove class and culture - this is symbolic of the Dayof Judgement, when money, power and culture will be meaningless. The hajj is for the glory of Allah, not to worship a man. Most people that perform hajj also visit the tomb of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) but that is not a part of the hajj.

Tis is just the beginning and I would strongly suggest to anyone thinking of converting to read the Quran from cover to cover and learn where the hadiths fit into everything before they convert. I converted very quickly but nobody had even mentioned the hadiths, so I had a struggle to get my mind round them after the fact.

Hope this helps.
Salaam
MW
 
17th...Activities in Christian "celebrations" in Mexico and the Phillipines prominently feature self abuse (no, not that kind), scourging, and flagellation with thorn tipped whips. Pilgrims do all of this while crawling on their knees in processions to shrines so as to emulate the suffering of Christ.

Religions, at least some sectors of belief within them, have such rituals of "purification" embedded in their traditions to satify some denominational need to humiliate and wound worshippers in order to make their prayers, etc.more "pure".

I dunno, it's nothing I've ever contemplated. But it's not something limited to some sects within Islam.

flow....:rolleyes:
 
Salaam Flow my friend

Sorry I was just speaking about Islam, as in it is just the Shia Muslims that do this - other Muslims do not.

:)
 
The words bull in a china shop spring to mind - although I do understand why.

'as-salāmu calaykum

Almost been a week of looking into it.... :\ I wouldn't say I am rushing anything lol not like I have bought a ticket to Makkah... yet ;) lol...


The thing with the blood belongs to Shia Islam and it is only them that do it. They beat themselves with chains, in remembrence of Hussein, the grandson of the Prophet ohammad) that died in battle over the Caliphate. I am asking myself why you want to know about that?! That is not a road I would like to travel or encourage you to.

Imagine you're me for a moment.... (what an honour.) If you have found something you are very interested in and every moment you look into this more, it comes together, it clicks, it looks good... It smells goods, tastes good... Then out of freaking no where.... You recall groups of Muslims walking the streets slicing their heads open.... 1: it doesn't add up... To the knowledge I have.... 2:I have to do that? Hmmm maybe this isn't for me....

So I ask, and from asking I gain an answer.... And understanding... Trust me friend. I have no intention of slicing my head open and beating myself with chains...


So we are going to read and learn - slowly. We are also going to avoid radical ideas and if I see you headed in that direction guess what is gonna happen?? ;)

You bring a Jihad down on me?

I am not trying to patronise you, just get you to examine whether this is about faith or a desire to learn a fascinating subject. Either way is fine but make sure you know which. Islam is a way of life and to become a good Muslim you must 'live' Islam.

That is good then... as I do not feel patroinsed. From my small humble research and understanding of the pillars, I have assumed yes to be a good Muslim you must indeed as you say live Islam... Oh and the Hadiths? I found them on Saturday... When I was attempting to confirm that the Qur'an is the -only- book that is in reference to how to live as a Muslim.... I read the Hadiths every day. :) Every moment I have free if it isn't the Qur'an it's the Hadiths and if it isn't that it is google searches for Muhammad (pbuh) quotes lol....... Or going over the links I've found/or been given... Converting quickly? Who said I am converting ;) I don't see no signatures ;) lol But, seriously... How can I convert to Islam? What am I coming from? Nothing... Well... I guess if I did it could be seen as convertion from the world....

maca salāma
 
Definitely think you should start whipping yourself m8 ;) With razor encrusted chains is meant to be especially effective in bringing one close to ones maker. Dont forget to let us know how you get on....and dont forget the pics!!!

Tao
 
Definitely think you should start whipping yourself m8 ;) With razor encrusted chains is meant to be especially effective in bringing one close to ones maker. Dont forget to let us know how you get on....and dont forget the pics!!!

Tao

It is not of Allah's teachings... It is not of the Qur'an... Therefore... It is not of Islam. :)
 
It is not of Allah's teachings... It is not of the Qur'an... Therefore... It is not of Islam. :)

Sah ;)

You are aware I hope that hadiths are not all considered authentic? It depends which scholar you read as to what they consier authentic or weak. This goes by a number of things including the chain or narration and other hadiths from the same narrator (basically if they have told a whopper in one then the others are suspect). So be careful and check if they seem to go against the Quran.

wasalaam
 
lol.... Salaam!

Yes I understand this now, and to that extent I will take to a certain degree the hadiths with a pinch of salt... If something within the hadiths doesn't add up to the same answer as the Qur'an gives I will be weary of such a remark..

maca salāma
 
Waalikum ussalam.

Wow... lol. That is indeed one big experince I can imagine.... You get candy after that too? (Or am I just being greedy?)
You can keep the animal (meat) for yourself. But usually people give it to Saudi govt, they donate it to some charity. Saudis give a container of zam-zam water (the water that came out from beneath the feet of Ishmael). You can also buy Hajj souvenirs subsidized by Saudi govt. People back home think since it has come from Makkah, its something sacred. They forget to turn it upside down & see the tiny “made in china” written on it.

Shaving of the head.... That is just as a reminder and nothing else behind it?
I guess its ancient sacrifice ritual...asymbolic gesture. Your hair getting cut, animal’s throat getting cut, at the same time. Or may be there is some metaphysical link after all.

OH! And can you only go once? Or can you continue to come this?
From Islamic jurisprudence, you can do it as many times as you want. I’ve heard that Saudis do put some limit though; I guess they are running short of space. It’s not easy accommodating 2.5 million people.

Also what animal is sacraficed? And is it done... You know in a humane way?
There is a list of animals that can be sacrificed, but usually its camels, cows & sheep. It’s done in Islamic way. To make it halal, we need to drain out all the blood, which means cutting all four neck vessels. Some humanists say it’s inhumane. But blood in the flesh is a big source of bacteria, toxins & uric acid. More importantly it’s indigestible by humans. Here is a link about animal rights in Islam, with a section on Halal sacrifice

Animal Rights: An Islamic Perspective - Reading Islam.com

(BTW it also has audio lectures by Dr.Jamal Badawi)
 
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