Shameful conduct by U.S. soldiers and contractors in Iraq

Pathless

Pathless

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I originally posted this in the youtube thread in the Lounge, but something tells me that's not quite the place for it, and so I am posting it here. If a moderator wants to delete the post in the other thread, that would probably be a good idea.

I've been reading a lot about the state of occupied Iraq lately because I want to know more about the actual human suffering that is going on over there, all of which the U.S. is directly responsible for. I'd watched a few of these videos before, as well, and there are many more out there that capture U.S. troops in dehumanizing behavior (to put it mildly); these are just a few.

Some may argue that troops are just doing their jobs in these clips, and I will concede that point may be able to be argued in some cases. Others, to me, are undeniably abuses of power.


American soldiers crush a taxi:
YouTube - US Tank crushes Iraqi civilian's car

A tank rolls down the street, honking and shoving cars out of its way, then cruises into oncoming traffic:
YouTube - U.S vehicle runs over everything in iraq

"War fought by the first Playstation generation":
YouTube - Generation Kill - Iraq

Contractors shoot seemingly randomly from their vehicle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BDByPfIavQ

Teaching Iraqi children about their country:
YouTube - US soldiers sing with iraqi children "F*ck Iraq"

Offering a kid a hand grenade:
YouTube - How To Scare the **** Out of an Iraqi kid

More fun with kids:
YouTube - soldiers making fun of iraqi kids
 
Pathless,
I'm not suprised by this kind of behavior. The guys I knew during my time as a grunt were not so different. Given the opportunity and the environment many young soldiers begin to act this way. I lived around this attitude during peacetime manuevers in foreign countries so I expect no less during war.
Somehow the American press gives the impression that all soldiers are boyscouts, and many young people serving in the service are fine ethical people, and I knew many such, but at the level of the rifle company, there are the dregs of society in uniform. Even some officers would share in the "fun" from time to time.
War sucks on so very many levels.
 
I just want to say that there are wankers in every form of work, yes even soldiers. I am not advocating what they did, BUT RIFLEMEN ARE NOT THE DREGS OF SOCIETY IN UNIFORM. The scum of society, which I presume you are getting at are in all levels and I certainly wouldnt be comfortable calling these riflemen(who are trained to shoot and kill) that.
 
greymare said:
I just want to say that there are wankers in every form of work, yes even soldiers. I am not advocating what they did, BUT RIFLEMEN ARE NOT THE DREGS OF SOCIETY IN UNIFORM. The scum of society, which I presume you are getting at are in all levels and I certainly wouldnt be comfortable calling these riflemen(who are trained to shoot and kill) that.
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So how much time have you spent in the US Infantry then?

And again, are you saying that these things pathless shows were perpetrated by the high minded and moral? Like I said, there are many great guys in the Infantry, I spent ten years in the service of my country and served with some of the most heroic personalites you could imagine, but that doesn't negate the fact that in a rifle company you can easily get the bottom ten percent. In my time, many of those were chaptered out, but in war time the Army must be less picky.

When I was a kid many of the guys in high school that came up in front of the judge were given a choice: go to jail or join the Army. I know, it seems hard and harsh to see this truth Grey, but the reality is that the job of being a soldier is a brutal one. The only thing we were really trained for was to "close with and destroy the enemy" What exactly do you think that does to a man? What kind of man do you think can handle that day after day?
It would be nice if we lived in a fantasy world where every man was prince charming, but a soldiers lot isn't like that. Anyone who hasn't been there wouldn't understand.
 
snap out of it Pal, first you didnt say that there were many great guys in the infantry. you said they were dregs.....I am well aware that we dont live in a fantasy world and most men arent prince charming. I dont like being talked down to by the way. As one who has served his country I THOUGHT you would have a little more respect for those that still do. as Isaid before I am not advocating what these guys did, they are obviously trouble no matter what they do. My point is that riflemen are not dregs of society. No I havent spent any time in the us infantry. idiot. the guys that did this are scum but not all infantry are scum. that is my point. btw. i am a mother of a riflemen.
 
The "Generation Kill" clip is the most able to bring clarity to what the dregs of society really are. Victims. Victims of a culture of selfishness and violence. Something it highlights very well is how highly the rich and powerful must value the slum ghettoes of the inner cities.

Tao
 
greymare said:
snap out of it Pal, first you didn't say that there were many great guys in the infantry. you said they were dregs.....I am well aware that we dont live in a fantasy world and most men arent prince charming. I dont like being talked down to by the way. As one who has served his country I THOUGHT you would have a little more respect for those that still do. as Isaid before I am not advocating what these guys did, they are obviously trouble no matter what they do. My point is that riflemen are not dregs of society. No I havent spent any time in the us infantry. idiot. the guys that did this are scum but not all infantry are scum. that is my point. btw. i am a mother of a riflemen.
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Grey,

If you read my post carefully I point out that there are dregs of society within the lowest ranks of the rifle company not that all those in the rifle platoon/squad/fire-team are dregs. as an NCO I put many of them out of the army for drug abuse, felony, child abuse, spousal abuse you name it. I also spent my first three years as an MP and could tell you stories.
Now if you feel you have been talked down to... well there might be issues there that I don't feel qualified to address.
And while you may have many justifiable and reasonable causes to point out what an idiot I am, my military career and experience therein do not qualify.

As a responsible mother I am sure that the love and discipline you have taught you son will serve him well as he represents his country. Again, nowhere do I suggest that anyone who wears a uniform is "less than"
 
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Tao_Equus said:
The "Generation Kill" clip is the most able to bring clarity to what the dregs of society really are. Victims. Victims of a culture of selfishness and violence. Something it highlights very well is how highly the rich and powerful must value the slum ghettoes of the inner cities.

Tao
Click to expand...

Interesting comment, Tao. Are they victims? I understand the argument that those from the lower classes are faced with tough choices, and one of them, which is marketed as a noble step up out of poverty, is enlistment. I would agree that the kinds of marketing used by the armed forces and the aggressive tactics of recruiters in low-income areas is criminal.

Yet, part of me--a part of me I am kind of surprised by, actually--wonders where the individual accountability is. In the "Generation Kill" clip, we have what look like average white-bread young men talking about how "Let the Bodies Hit the Floor" is the appropriate song for their job. These people have hooked up CD players so that soundtracks of heavy metal, gangsta rap*, and other aggressive music pours through headsets that seem like they should be meant for communication between squad members. In the last bit of the footage, you have that one man-boy talking who seems surprised that real people don't die instantly like video game people do in video games. He says that sometimes these strange real people have their "guts hanging out" or continue to swing on swingsets (am I remembering this correctly? Swinging on swingsets would seem to imply children, or am I wrong?) after being shot. They just won't die, he says, and seems dismayed; seems even to suggest through his dismay and body language that these people must be real dumb, or somehow sub-human, to not die right away when they are shot.

I think the accountability ultimately does come back to society and western civilization as a whole, and these young men are symptomatic expressions of the disease. I'm not sure if they are victims. Somehow that seems like the wrong word to use. I know I am being picky about this, but I wonder if a word like "corrupted" might better apply. Some children fed on the pestilence of consumerism and violence do grow up to become insensitive, hardened, belligerent excuses for men and women. Yet I wonder what choices they had. When did they say goodbye to compassion and their humanity? Did they have a choice? Was it a conscious decision, or are they indeed victims, preyed upon, molded, sculpted in an indirect, malevolent way from infancy?


*As a side note, I imagine that Tupac himself would be shocked and awed were he to somehow watch this clip and see how this white kid from America has co-opted his music for a war against people in Iraq.
 
Pathless said:
*As a side note, I imagine that Tupac himself would be shocked and awed were he to somehow watch this clip and see how this white kid from America has co-opted his music for a war against people in Iraq.
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I don't know if any of the following are accurate but:

In the Vietnam movies they indicated the choppers used to pump out the music as the guns were blarin.

In WWII movies they show the pilots picking up radio free europe as they fly in bombing raids.

And if we believe the tribal lore, seems like music, the drum beat has been used to rally the troops, get the blood pumpin or disassociate for millenia.
 
Pathless said:
Interesting comment, Tao. Are they victims? I understand the argument that those from the lower classes are faced with tough choices, and one of them, which is marketed as a noble step up out of poverty, is enlistment. I would agree that the kinds of marketing used by the armed forces and the aggressive tactics of recruiters in low-income areas is criminal.

I think the accountability ultimately does come back to society and western civilization as a whole, and these young men are symptomatic expressions of the disease. I'm not sure if they are victims. Somehow that seems like the wrong word to use. I know I am being picky about this, but I wonder if a word like "corrupted" might better apply. Some children fed on the pestilence of consumerism and violence do grow up to become insensitive, hardened, belligerent excuses for men and women. Yet I wonder what choices they had. When did they say goodbye to compassion and their humanity? Did they have a choice? Was it a conscious decision, or are they indeed victims, preyed upon, molded, sculpted in an indirect, malevolent way from infancy?
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I have some sympathy with what you are saying and it is true that there are many youngsters today that cannot fairly be claimed as victims of neglect. But there are many that genuinely know no better. Today there are so many children that are brought up by junkies and alcoholics that have no social responsibilities whatsoever. Kids that are born with heroin addictions, raised in crack houses by people who's only emotional language is derision, scorn, impatience and outright abuse. Kids growing up in that are victims. By the time the military is recruiting them they are probably way beyond help and sympathy for them is futile, I'd agree with that. But they are still victims.


Wil,

Spot on. The pipes and drums of the Scottish infantry for example. The legends speak of many a battle that was won by the terror instilled by the deep booming of the drums and squealing of the pipes alone, when the enemy were struck with fear and fled the battlefield without a fight. And if you had ever heard 3000 drummers and pipers, (like you can in Edinburgh on the opening day of the festival each year, or fewer but much more awe-inspiringly in flaming torchlit procession at the opening of the festival of fire on December 27th), building up to a crescendo you can imagine the legends true.

This is the power a single piper and a few traditional drummers can muster. Imagine 100s or even 1000s.
YouTube - Clanadonia - Ya Bassa Edinburgh Fringe Festival

Enjoy!!

Tao
 
Oh pal I must say that i am sooooooo terribly sorry. to have misread your post. Actually I reread and reread it and it stills reads the same to me. Perhaps I have lost a few words across the ocean. What you meant to say and what you actually typed seems to be two completely different things.

These wankers that you were talking about could be anything. as in, military, school teachers, parents, policemen etc. I amonly reacting to your statement about riflemen, in particular.
 
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