SchiZo
Omnipresent
- Messages
- 28
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
Banjo,
Hear me out. Some of what you say has some validity behind it..... from your perspective. However, your perspective is not entirely correct, and its not really your fault. You see, administering an Islamic state is not easy... one needs to be qualified with proper understanding. When you look at certain concepts and topics in Islam, you view them individually without context and taking into account the entirety of the Quran and Islamic teachings.
Islamic ideology means Islamic scripture, and Islamic law, implemented in an Islamic state, from the perspective of Islam.
You look at Islamic rules and laws, and more importantly, their implementation from the British court house standpoint. You also speak of it as a non-Muslim, whereas I talk on the subject, complementing the information with the spirit or essence of Islam. Let me put it another way.... we have 2 copies of the Quran, one for you and the other for me. We both go to seperate lands and become the rulers. Our duty includes implementing Islamic teachings and laws.... now I don't think I need to explain what would happen, or the difference it would make between us.
Islamic law and British law are very different in certain aspects. For example, in some cases, the British police have to prosecute once they have been notified even if the one who brought it up wants to drop the charges.
If someone murdered you, and even if your family did not want to have the perpetrator sent to the slammer, chances are he would still get sent down. Contrast this with what would happen in an Islamic state; the attitude would be thus: "He's [dead &] gone now, what is done is done... we can't change that, his affair with the murderer is between them and God now. The only thing we can deal with, or give justice to in this world, is the family of the victim". According to Islam (and even Judaism), the slaying of an innocent is like murdering the whole of mankind. So when Judgement Day comes, that soul is in for some serious recompense and will suffer terribly (unless his victim shows forgiveness). Now the family has a choice while the perpetrator is still on earth; to either punish with anything up to execution, or to forgive. Sometimes the grieving family need justice to put their hearts at rest, and capital punishment may be employed. However, God commands according to Quran, that you should show mercy and forgive, as it's a noble and pious thing to do. Provided that the perpetrator is not a serial killer, shows remorse and is genuinely repentant, vowing to amend his conduct. When Muslim's show mercy and forgive in such a case, it is in the ultimate sense, the mercy and forgiveness of Allah. The wise soul which is most nearest to God, understands this reality and will forgive solely because it is a good soul. However, those who don't possess this understanding, are given an incentive.... God says that those who show mercy and forgive others because of their faults, so too will God show mercy and forgiveness, overlooking your faults on Judgement Day.
You are probably wondering why I am going on about murder and such, but the point I am demonstrating here, is that; the essence and implementation of British and Islamic law is different in certain aspects, where forgiveness & mercy is emphasized greatly in Islamic law. Allah says; "My mercy prevaileth over My wrath".
Before I comment on the issue of Zinaa, lets first look at the misconception you brought up about divorce... Saying "I divorce you" 3 times in succession and walking away is a crock of horse manure. The Islamic model for life, for society, has its foundations deeply built on the family unit. Without a strong, stable and secure family structure, the society is doomed and destined for failure. This has been emphasized many times throughout Islamic teachings. God says that divorce is the only hateful act in His sight which He permits... due to the nature and psyche of humans, in practical and realistic terms. There have to be some legitimate reasons for a divorce to be justified. The Sharia has prescribed the pronouncement of divorce three times, for some specific reasons, and they are to be observed over an 'Iddah' (waiting period of 3 months). One may say it out of spite and anger, but what matters here is the intention. This waiting period is prescribed so that the situation can be reviewed, and if possible; resolved. Divorce should ultimately be the last resort when all else has failed. There can be some exceptions to this, depending on the circumstances, but the court would have to handle it.
Regarding polygamy; as explained before... there is an allowance, it is neither prohibited nor advocated, because the ideal is a union betwen one man & woman. However, there are certain cases where the ideal can be modified slightly for the betterment of society. Originally, the polygamy provision was made so that orphans and widows would benefit from it. I know that some will try to abuse the system, sure, but they would do it regardless of any religion or rules. The good outweighs the potential bad, so it is worth it.
That doesn't mean women will be at the whims of their husband's sexual desires.
004.024 ....seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property, - desiring chastity, not lust,
The above verse shows what the intention should be. In another verse, God commands believers to; "fulfill your obligations". i.e. stand true to your oaths, contracts, etc.. meaning live up to the deal when you married your wife. So if a man desires a second, and it does not fall in the category of special circumstances, then he must have his first wife's go ahead and well being at heart. If he upsets his wife in trying to acquire a second, then he is not dealing justly with her, thus he is forbidden to do so. He must prove that his reasons are socially and morally justified.
Besides why should it be a big deal? if one happens to disagree with the reasons behind it, then don't become a Muslim nor marry one, and you will be fine. lol
Anyway, lets get on the topic of Zinaa. As I have explained above, with the example of murder, and how forgiveness is preferred. How does sex between two consenting adults compare to the murder of an innocent? and do you think forgiveness & mercy comes before punishment in such a case, in light of the former supposition?
The evidential bar is purposely set high, for 3rd party accusers. It protects the women from false slander. However if you get teen pregnancies, then you know something is up. They risk punishment, and as such it becomes a deterrant. Even then, in such a case, they should be forgiven. So the 4 witnesses rule only applies to third parties. It does not, however, and let me repeat, it does not apply to the husband or wife. In that case, only their single testimony is enough. I said this before, and I am saying it again, I hope it doesn't fly over your head. The husband or wife does not need 4 witnesses, but only their own single one and only testimony!!
So what has happened here is this; no one can accuse a woman of Zinaa unless he/she is a spouse, because really it is none of their damn business, and it will only matter if the woman becomes pregnant and a burden on the state, in that case... such a person should fear the consequences. In the case of adultery, the husband or wife can divorce if one of them is guilty of lewdness. No need for witnesses, only your own testimony, and if you lie... you risk severe punishment from God, but the state will leave you alone... and you have a reason to dissolve the marriage.
Again, even with all this in place, forgiveness and mercy is always preferred. For example, a woman came to the Prophet, asking to be punished for her act of Zinaa, but the Prophet replied; "Woe to you! Go back to where you came from, and repent to Allah. He will forgive you." There are many other such similar cases, and the Prophet would either turn his face away in disapproval and send them away.
As for the death penalty for Apostasy; there is nothing in the Quran to that effect. I realize that comes from a hadith whose authenticity is disputed and suspect. I can prove with verses of Quran that there is no compulsion in religion, and commands to say "To you be yours, and to me.. mine". i.e. religion. I don't think it is necessary though.
Ok I think I have answered all your points. I have a flu/cold developping so my mind is a little blocked, and I may have missed something out. Theres not much more to add right now, I've typed enough for one post today. I don't feel like dragging the argument senselessly, as I have explained, all these Islamic teachings are interwined and deeply connected. It is not easy to write everything out, one would have to write a big thesis to even come close to explaining things properly. I'm not interested in doing that.
I know some Arab countries have some questionable practices, but they are not really educated or qualified to govern a proper Islamic State. Silly Arab's would be lucky if they could operate a gas/petrol station on their own. lol
Hear me out. Some of what you say has some validity behind it..... from your perspective. However, your perspective is not entirely correct, and its not really your fault. You see, administering an Islamic state is not easy... one needs to be qualified with proper understanding. When you look at certain concepts and topics in Islam, you view them individually without context and taking into account the entirety of the Quran and Islamic teachings.
Islamic ideology means Islamic scripture, and Islamic law, implemented in an Islamic state, from the perspective of Islam.
You look at Islamic rules and laws, and more importantly, their implementation from the British court house standpoint. You also speak of it as a non-Muslim, whereas I talk on the subject, complementing the information with the spirit or essence of Islam. Let me put it another way.... we have 2 copies of the Quran, one for you and the other for me. We both go to seperate lands and become the rulers. Our duty includes implementing Islamic teachings and laws.... now I don't think I need to explain what would happen, or the difference it would make between us.
Islamic law and British law are very different in certain aspects. For example, in some cases, the British police have to prosecute once they have been notified even if the one who brought it up wants to drop the charges.
If someone murdered you, and even if your family did not want to have the perpetrator sent to the slammer, chances are he would still get sent down. Contrast this with what would happen in an Islamic state; the attitude would be thus: "He's [dead &] gone now, what is done is done... we can't change that, his affair with the murderer is between them and God now. The only thing we can deal with, or give justice to in this world, is the family of the victim". According to Islam (and even Judaism), the slaying of an innocent is like murdering the whole of mankind. So when Judgement Day comes, that soul is in for some serious recompense and will suffer terribly (unless his victim shows forgiveness). Now the family has a choice while the perpetrator is still on earth; to either punish with anything up to execution, or to forgive. Sometimes the grieving family need justice to put their hearts at rest, and capital punishment may be employed. However, God commands according to Quran, that you should show mercy and forgive, as it's a noble and pious thing to do. Provided that the perpetrator is not a serial killer, shows remorse and is genuinely repentant, vowing to amend his conduct. When Muslim's show mercy and forgive in such a case, it is in the ultimate sense, the mercy and forgiveness of Allah. The wise soul which is most nearest to God, understands this reality and will forgive solely because it is a good soul. However, those who don't possess this understanding, are given an incentive.... God says that those who show mercy and forgive others because of their faults, so too will God show mercy and forgiveness, overlooking your faults on Judgement Day.
You are probably wondering why I am going on about murder and such, but the point I am demonstrating here, is that; the essence and implementation of British and Islamic law is different in certain aspects, where forgiveness & mercy is emphasized greatly in Islamic law. Allah says; "My mercy prevaileth over My wrath".
Before I comment on the issue of Zinaa, lets first look at the misconception you brought up about divorce... Saying "I divorce you" 3 times in succession and walking away is a crock of horse manure. The Islamic model for life, for society, has its foundations deeply built on the family unit. Without a strong, stable and secure family structure, the society is doomed and destined for failure. This has been emphasized many times throughout Islamic teachings. God says that divorce is the only hateful act in His sight which He permits... due to the nature and psyche of humans, in practical and realistic terms. There have to be some legitimate reasons for a divorce to be justified. The Sharia has prescribed the pronouncement of divorce three times, for some specific reasons, and they are to be observed over an 'Iddah' (waiting period of 3 months). One may say it out of spite and anger, but what matters here is the intention. This waiting period is prescribed so that the situation can be reviewed, and if possible; resolved. Divorce should ultimately be the last resort when all else has failed. There can be some exceptions to this, depending on the circumstances, but the court would have to handle it.
Regarding polygamy; as explained before... there is an allowance, it is neither prohibited nor advocated, because the ideal is a union betwen one man & woman. However, there are certain cases where the ideal can be modified slightly for the betterment of society. Originally, the polygamy provision was made so that orphans and widows would benefit from it. I know that some will try to abuse the system, sure, but they would do it regardless of any religion or rules. The good outweighs the potential bad, so it is worth it.
That doesn't mean women will be at the whims of their husband's sexual desires.
004.024 ....seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property, - desiring chastity, not lust,
Al-Qur'an, 004.024 (An-Nisa [Women])
The above verse shows what the intention should be. In another verse, God commands believers to; "fulfill your obligations". i.e. stand true to your oaths, contracts, etc.. meaning live up to the deal when you married your wife. So if a man desires a second, and it does not fall in the category of special circumstances, then he must have his first wife's go ahead and well being at heart. If he upsets his wife in trying to acquire a second, then he is not dealing justly with her, thus he is forbidden to do so. He must prove that his reasons are socially and morally justified.
Besides why should it be a big deal? if one happens to disagree with the reasons behind it, then don't become a Muslim nor marry one, and you will be fine. lol
Anyway, lets get on the topic of Zinaa. As I have explained above, with the example of murder, and how forgiveness is preferred. How does sex between two consenting adults compare to the murder of an innocent? and do you think forgiveness & mercy comes before punishment in such a case, in light of the former supposition?
The evidential bar is purposely set high, for 3rd party accusers. It protects the women from false slander. However if you get teen pregnancies, then you know something is up. They risk punishment, and as such it becomes a deterrant. Even then, in such a case, they should be forgiven. So the 4 witnesses rule only applies to third parties. It does not, however, and let me repeat, it does not apply to the husband or wife. In that case, only their single testimony is enough. I said this before, and I am saying it again, I hope it doesn't fly over your head. The husband or wife does not need 4 witnesses, but only their own single one and only testimony!!
So what has happened here is this; no one can accuse a woman of Zinaa unless he/she is a spouse, because really it is none of their damn business, and it will only matter if the woman becomes pregnant and a burden on the state, in that case... such a person should fear the consequences. In the case of adultery, the husband or wife can divorce if one of them is guilty of lewdness. No need for witnesses, only your own testimony, and if you lie... you risk severe punishment from God, but the state will leave you alone... and you have a reason to dissolve the marriage.
Again, even with all this in place, forgiveness and mercy is always preferred. For example, a woman came to the Prophet, asking to be punished for her act of Zinaa, but the Prophet replied; "Woe to you! Go back to where you came from, and repent to Allah. He will forgive you." There are many other such similar cases, and the Prophet would either turn his face away in disapproval and send them away.
As for the death penalty for Apostasy; there is nothing in the Quran to that effect. I realize that comes from a hadith whose authenticity is disputed and suspect. I can prove with verses of Quran that there is no compulsion in religion, and commands to say "To you be yours, and to me.. mine". i.e. religion. I don't think it is necessary though.
Ok I think I have answered all your points. I have a flu/cold developping so my mind is a little blocked, and I may have missed something out. Theres not much more to add right now, I've typed enough for one post today. I don't feel like dragging the argument senselessly, as I have explained, all these Islamic teachings are interwined and deeply connected. It is not easy to write everything out, one would have to write a big thesis to even come close to explaining things properly. I'm not interested in doing that.
I know some Arab countries have some questionable practices, but they are not really educated or qualified to govern a proper Islamic State. Silly Arab's would be lucky if they could operate a gas/petrol station on their own. lol
